Dwarfen witchers...

[Sirnaq]

In my opinion technically there is option to mutate elf or dwarf, but who the fuck want to be mutated? Witchers took orphan boys just for convenience, no one wanted them, they didn't have anything to lose going through all the trials. And there always was ciri (only reason why she wasn't mutated was because there was no one alive who has enough knowledge to do that). They gave her nonmagical mushrooms tho(medieval redbull).

 

[GuyNwah]

In my opinion technically there is option to mutate elf or dwarf, but who the fuck want to be mutated? Witchers took orphan boys just for convenience, no one wanted them, they didn't have anything to lose going through all the trials. And there always was ciri (only reason why she wasn't mutated was because there was no one alive who has enough knowledge to do that). They gave her nonmagical mushrooms tho(medieval redbull).

Not exactly; Ciri was not put through the mutations because Triss intervened.

While it has not always been adhered to, a basic principle of medicine is that you don't do something when your belief that it will succeed has no sufficient foundation. Because the witcher trials had been applied mainly or entirely to orphan boys, the mages had a pretty good idea of how human boys would respond. They should be given enough credit to believe that they would not experiment on girls, or elves, or dwarves, because they had no sufficient reason to believe they would respond the same way and survive or succeed as witchers.

Azar Javed was sufficiently amoral and devoted to the cause of a new world order to ignore such restrictions. However, it does not appear that he attempted to mutate elves or dwarves; or if he did, he had no success.

 

[wichat]

The only answer can be, we just don't know, but there is adequate reason to believe that there would be unforeseen problems. (IRL, humans are physiologically more like pigs than anything else; draw from that what conclusions you will.)

I believe Azar Javed knew what he was doing with the mutagens, but did not understand fully and was under pressure to produce results quickly. Apparently he started with dogs; IRL, most medical research starts with a readily available animal species. When he moved on to humans, fallen Salamandra and Order soldiers were the most available, so those were the ones he refined his methods on.

And geneticaly to 99% the primate. Last news: we are more closer to an Orangutans than a chimpanzee.
Pigs are more used in medical issues because: a) they are more closer to us than any other mammal (except primates). primates are in danger of extinction, c) primates deseases are very contagious to human. And vice versa.

PS
I'd really like to be Able to express myself as I do easyly in spanish Debating with you must be gratifying on equal terms

 

[GuyNwah]

And geneticaly to 99% the primate. Last news: we are more closer to an Orangutans than a chimpanzee.
Pigs are more used in medical issues because: a) they are more closer to us than any other mammal (except primates). primates are in danger of extinction, c) primates deseases are very contagious to human. And vice versa.

PS
I'd really like to be Able to express myself as I do easyly in spanish Debating with you must be gratifying on equal terms

For that, I apologize, but my limited castellano would make a discussion in that language even less equal. Rather like the time I once tried to explain Protestants to a table of students, only one of whom spoke English. But that was all in good fun, just like this should be.

All I can say is that physiology isn't completely parallel with genetics. You're right; the genetic differences between humans and great apes all but vanish if we look closely. But pigs turn out to be more suitable models and donors for many human diseases, especially cardiovascular diseases, and surgical procedures. For more than you'd ever want to know on the subject, see http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/swine/swine.htm

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Also, Azar's experiments were directed by another figure, who explicitly decided that non human races aren't needed for their cause. So he probably didn't even think to try.

 

[username_3581677]

My take on the subject at hand.....


That journal entry about how a witcher should fight a dragon is not cannon. Geralt specifically states to Triss that he nor Witchers kill dragons unless they are left with no other choice. The Dragons were hunted down by groups like the Crinferd Reavers and Knights trying to gain fame and Honor. The Witchers View Dragons Honorable Creatures. Just like Trolls are only killed if they warrant it.


Now as far as Women or other Race Witchers. I believe the main reason for females is Vanity and Fear. Females do not want to walk around with scars and mutations they have nothing to gain by it. They can make more money with their ummm.....looks Favtor in only about Half maybe less of the Male Witchers actully survive to become Full Blown Witchers it is just not a risk most females would take. They would however admire a Man who did.....Which is why Geralt despite not being all that handsome and Freakishly white Women pursue him with a certain zest.

I feel that the Witcher's jealously guarded their mutations from other Races. After all it was one of few advantages they had over other the long lived and Faster/Sturdier Elves and Dwarves .

Why lose an advantage?

Also even if it did happen the mutations would likely kill or have other unknown effects. Some maybe even more powerful but who could know until they submitted for the tests........ Elf or Dwarf seem happy with who they are unlike humans.......

Yes, the Witchers were first made by the Wizards to fight the horde of monsters that came with the Junction of spheres.

 

[volsung]

And geneticaly to 99% the primate. Last news: we are more closer to an Orangutans than a chimpanzee.
Pigs are more used in medical issues because: a) they are more closer to us than any other mammal (except primates). primates are in danger of extinction, c) primates deseases are very contagious to human. And vice versa.

PS
I'd really like to be Able to express myself as I do easyly in spanish Debating with you must be gratifying on equal terms

Well, humans *are* primates. We are more distantly related to Orangutans than to Chimpanzees and Bonobos in the evolutionary timeline (the latter being our most recent relative).

(...) orangutans share approximately 97% of their DNA. This compares to about 99% sequence similarity between humans and chimps. [1]

In any case, the lack of evidence is not an evidence, so there is a possibility that witcher mutations may work on members of related subspecies. If we share physiologic and genetic similarities with other mammals, I am sure these similarities would be greater for "races" within the same species, such as "human", "elf" and "dwarf". I assume at least elves and humans are the same species since there is at least one half-elf in TW1.


[1] http://www.nih.gov/researchmatters/february2011/02072011orangutan.htm

 

[pomor]

I'd say, it is pretty much canon, that mutations as they are, without some heavy redesign, would work only on human males.
Evidence or not, I think if all of the sudden we get elven/gnomish/dwarven witchers, in some kind of MMO, it would be pretty much game breaking experience.

 

[wichat]

and I return to my eternal question embodied in the Flostam child who run behind Geralt asking:

May a girl be a witcher?

(So, after all you've writen here, dogs and pigs are phisiological superior than human women, and elves... etc OR human men are really in a equal lower status than dogs and pigs...)

 

[GuyNwah]

and I return to my eternal question embodied in the Flostam child who run behind Geralt asking:

May a girl be a witcher?

(So, after all you've writen here, dogs and pigs are phisiological superior than human women, and elves... etc OR human men are really in a equal lower status than dogs and pigs...)

I didn't mean to say anything about "superior"; I was trying as hard as I could to avoid any implication like that. Since I wasn't clear, I apologize. It's more a question of "suitable for experiment" to me.

Girls could certainly take on witcher training and thrive on it. I wouldn't doubt that for an instant. A girl so trained could become a formidable hunter or warrior, even another Ciri (apart from the Source and prophecy stuff). But when you get down to the question of "would the witcher's somatic mutations have the expected or desirable effects when attempted on a girl", the answer has to be "we just don't know, and because we don't know, it would be at best unethical to try."

Dogs or pigs are more "suitable for experiment" in this context, because people got really upset over mages trying these kinds of experiments on children. Not "superior". Just "less likely to cause Geralt to go Butcher of Blaviken on your entire organization when you're found out".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw5pmDgWMaU

 

[RSIK_4]

i never heard in books that dwarven witchers

 

[wichat]

Please, put some irony in my previous posts

But just to say that mutations are successfull with dogs or pigs an human males, what makes the differents between them and the other people?

So if the mutation bases work in human males and in other lower specimens what makes the difference? Is a man closer to a dog than a woman? Why? So. me. as a female gender specimen, I can really feel myself superior than a man becuase he is like a dog or may I feel worse becuase a dog can be equal to a man? I don't know if I really express myself clearly enough.

Never mind Guy, I understand what you've writen, but I don't understand that "philosophical/phisiological" distintion between, men, dogs, and women

 

[GuyNwah]

To give an explanation that would satisfy me, I'd have to drag in graduate-level comparative physiology, and I wouldn't like to sound any more pedantic than I already have

If you spend a lot of time looking at humans or animals as biological systems and how those systems work, you see some often-repeated themes. One of these, and I'll concentrate on it, is amplification. It's how a small event produces a big response. For example, if you get a paper cut on your finger, there's a cascade of at least ten stages (depending on how you count them) from noticing that a blood vessel has been damaged to producing the proteins that form a clot and stop the bleeding. Each of these stages allows a small but detectable stimulus to produce a larger, carefully regulated, response. If any of the stages is falsely triggered, blocked, disrupted, or wrongly regulated, you may get a disastrous failure to respond (hemophilia) or an out-of-control response (say, "economy class syndrome").

In this way, differences that do not appear to amount to much between species, between individuals, or between sexes may cause wildly different results when the systems they're part of are pushed in ways they haven't evolved to be pushed. This doesn't say anything about one being better than the other. Just that they're different, and the differences can't even be guessed unless you already have models and theories that are well tested and known to predict these sorts of differences. Some of the differences between men and women that make a difference in an athletic field such as witcher training are the patterns in which they store and metabolize "essential" fat and the ways in which they regulate body temperature when exercising or when exposed to cold.

Back to the Witcher world, we have (or had) mages with extensive experience, hundreds or thousands of subjects over many tens of years, in the physiology of human boys and what the effects of well-regulated dosing with mutating drugs would be. Even so, they know (knew) them to be often fatal, or crippling, or leading to insanity.

They could assume girls would respond the same way, and if they got an orphan girl to train up as a witcher, they might treat them in the same manner. It's my contention that this would not be prudent, it would be likely to fail for reasons they could not explain, and they know (knew) enough to think it dangerous and not make the attempt.

 

[fesper]

I wondered about that as well..... Interesting theories...

 

[wichat]

Ok

I accept that ancient witchers have their reason, but breifing, the results is to compare phisiology human (man or women) wtih phisiology animal are quite unsense, even under the scientific point of view. That I cannot accept,

understand differences between man and woman, scientificly and hormonally proven,.. but between dog and human? It is still a weak argument which states that a man is such an animal as a dog or a dog is as human as a man. I cannot understand what kind of physiology equates man with the dog (except the urinary and of course their organs).


I better prefer think that the human specimen is the only good one for perfect mutation to wtichers, and that man is the less emotionally complicated and therefore easier to control. OK... But DOGS? Only midle age culture can explain this.

 

[pomor]

Ok

I accept that ancient witchers have their reason, but breifing, the results is to compare phisiology human (man or women) wtih phisiology animal are quite unsense, even under the scientific point of view. That I cannot accept,

understand differences between man and woman, scientificly and hormonally proven,.. but between dog and human? It is still a weak argument which states that a man is such an animal as a dog or a dog is as human as a man. I cannot understand what kind of physiology equates man with the dog (except the urinary and of course their organs).

Come on, how much these "dogs" resembled the not-mutated specimens? Also, Azar was able to mutate a woman, even after she has died.
The question being, do you want bearly human-like insane monsters, or something at least resembling a human being, close enough to be accepted, even if not always, by "natural" people. It is implied, in "Blood of Elves", that all this hormons and mutogens would have to be fine tuned for a woman body. Triss believed that such an experiment would most probably kill Ciri, eventually.

 

[wichat]

Well, you see? Maybe it is possible that some people haven't read the books and therefore other people talk having the mistaken belief that everyone HAS read them. I apologize if I've missed the required reading. And I thank you for expanding my limited information.

 

[pomor]

Well, you see? Maybe it is possible that some people haven't read the books and therefore other people talk having the mistaken belief that everyone HAS read them. I apologize if I've missed the required reading. And I thank you for expanding my limited information.

Sorry if I sounded as rude, or patronising. English in not my language, it is somewhat difficult for me to tell how do I come out. But, for some reason, I indeed assumed that you have read the books. Not sure why, actually. Maybe because of your location:Spain, just recently I was looking at the covers of the Spanish edition. But there was no shred of doubt in my mind, that you did read them, and for some reason playing dumb, sorry for that again.

 

[wichat]

Sorry if I sounded as rude, or patronising. English in not my language, it is somewhat difficult for me to tell how do I come out. But, for some reason, I indeed assumed that you have read the books. Not sure why, actually. Maybe because of your location:Spain, just recently I was looking at the covers of the Spanish edition. But there was no shred of doubt in my mind, that you did read them, and for some reason playing dumb, sorry for that again.

Never mind, as you can see english is not my maternal language and sometimes It is also hard to me express myself . I surely must sound ruder as you believe you've done to me.

And referring of the spanish edition: I'm waiting for my local library has these books on its list.at least!

 

[GuyNwah]

Never mind, as you can see english is not my maternal language and sometimes It is also hard to me express myself . I surely must sound ruder as you believe you've done to me.

And referring of the spanish edition: I'm waiting for my local library has these books on its list.at least!

The Spanish edition is very well done. La Dama del Lago was up on Google Books for a while (maybe taken down; I couldn't find it again). I made it through several chapters, and it is very good writing. You should be pleased with it.