Economy,emergent gameplay and citizens

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Economy,emergent gameplay and citizens

It would be very fun to have a large number of citizens and a thriving economy

Here are some features I thought would be ideal to have:

Warning: long post ahead!!!!

Persistent citizens
-Have a daily routine set for themselves
-randomly generated
-Ideally, certain information could be gleaned from just observing an NPC. for example, a girl would live in a dingbat apartment but still insist on wearing all gucci clothes. most likely does not have the best of credit ratings. Following a judge at night might reveal he likes gambling,etc.
-possibility to corrupt and blackmail depending on vice, sickness, indebtedness, satisfaction,etc.
-Can hold and buy real estate, or simply rent or get thrown out,become criminal
-Lot of unhappy citizen could form riots

commerce
-Supply and demand including real estate
-Ability to own a business
-a realistic supply chain
-create problems to create demand (e.g. introduce a disease to pump up the price of a vaccine, destroy an apartment to promote a construction company)!!!!
-destroying merchandise, stores, or kidnap/kill/threaten/blackmail/persuade key personel to dampen supply provided by a competitor
-stock market could be created based on the random walk theory
-Fake identities should be available and some sort of legal system set up to counter white collar crime

Media:
-Scandals could be brought to light and demand for a corp's product drop as a result.In extreme cases,provoking a run on the bank or a company`s stock.
-Lies could be made by executives during news conferences about income statements to provide a boost to reputation but a smoking gun revealed publicly could make it come crumbling down
-This allows for a wide range of white collar crime. E.g. a media could help a corp launch an IPO. the success of this would be determined by quality of office, reputation,etc. The corp could then run a legitimate business ...or default and run with the suckers`money (with all that entails).
-Plastic surgery would have a reason to exist beyond cosmetics. It would be a great way to disappear and the more different the changes, the dimmer the trail.

Organizations/businesses
-Should roughly work like a real organization with limited ressources.e.g e.g. In a retail outlet, a truck would be sent from the warehouse to the retailer to restock on food.
-The computer system would hold files about the minutes of the last meeting (e.g. a corporate meeting would hold the location of the next corporate raid) as well as a list of personnel and clients and other relevant data.
-Each building should have inventory which is physically accessible by the PC. Same with employees and machinery.
-Ideally, you should be able to wipe out an organization.
-Should have AI and be able to react to its environment with its ressources.

Advantages of such a system

-Information even on private citizens would become hugely valuable and add a new dimension to gameplay.
Let`s say the persuasion system allow to take into account the various traits and we have a mafia guy that wants to have a SIN.

He can either go to poor neighboorhood and intercept citizens at random with poor odds of succeeding as he doesn`t know the character`s traits

Or he can get

a list of NPCs (bought at high dollars from a data broker) with bad credit for example , find where they live or call them and and pitch them an offer they can't refuse.

He could stalk a strip club visitor to see if he is a bum or a police big wig. He could observe a business to see who are the managers and the CEO, who comes and goes, etc.

Or the minutes of a meeting could provide valuable info on the next move of an organisation and time to allow moving illegal hardware from a warehouse to another (I hope you have another safehouse set up).

-Perpetual game
-It would allow for a pacifist playthrough as many of the class are economic in nature.
-In itself, pricing is a storytelling tool.The PC`s action could provoke a snowball effect which in turn could affect a whole sector. How glorious!
-Automatic quest generation could be directly related to the day to day politics and would feel less generic then say in Skyrim.
-Combined with realistic ballistics and damage, it would add uncertainty and risk to the game. As the economy is fluid, consumer demand fluctuates, your businesses could easily fail and other orgs will actively seek to shut you down. It could work very very well if there is a meaningful and harsh justice system.

Arguably, this is a Christmas wish list ,as any wish list, it is always ambitious, and there is always more.

but it would be really nice to have even a few of these features implemented. I think a lot of these could be abstracted away or a workaround could be found to make a credible illusion. so I don`t think it is necessarily unfeasible by 2015-16.

Extra thoughts?
 
I forgot to add, I think it would be ace if the list could be applied by enterprising NPCs against the player as well.

Also, people should stand a chance of catching you out and spotting you stalk/observe them.
 
And that's why it won't happen. All of this is side activity, and thus, far too complex and costly.

I for one hope that, at least on a limited scale, these are nearly all important parts of cdpr's concept for the game. It is a sandbox world after all, so "side activity" is important, but not as important as the feeling the world is moving without you, that it doesn't need you, and that you need to struggle to "run the edge" or even survive. A lot of this reminds of Mike Pondsmiths recent video for cyberpunk, particularly the mystery of the "shadowed faced people" and the fact they're all connected to their own intricate lives.

As far as coding it doesn't have to be to complicated, it's just a matter of clever algorithm's that can puzzle together a large number of presets into whatever random quest, political, financial, or criminal event (like psychos), npc personality, ect. best suits the situation without being broken, unbelievable, or overly redundant. A deep economy would be just about the only thing I'd deem too complex, but a limited version would be good for corporate players, and if done right could add a lot of hours.

A lot of roles revolve around these ideas, media's need dirt to dig up on people so they can have jobs, and possibly finish quests through intelligence gathering and blackmail. Corporates need the ability to sabotage companies to manipulate stocks, giving solos, techies, and netrunners work. Rockerboys and nomads need riots and crowds to manipulate or hide among. An open world is crap if it doesn't breath and have life.

Mostly I just hope the game is deep and just a few good elements can take it there. Skyrim's world completely trumped Oblivions with simple additions like lots of varied wildlife and even children, though my favorite is the personality, conflict and humanity painted everywhere in the world by the civil war (especially since both sides were so incredibly believable). Likewise one of my favorite aspects of DE:HR was the philosophic and moral dilemmas of cybernetic enhancement and the many sides and opinions portrayed, from bigotry to adoration. How poor crippled amputees couldn't afford the treatments but rich health people could for whimsical aesthetic reasons. How religiously opposed individuals were forced into augmentation if there wanted a chance in the competitive job market brought on by overpopulation. And all the science stuff like genetics and what not, was if you dug into it based in fact. It wasn't about run faster, punch harder, it was more about do I want to switch the leg that birth, Mother Nature, and evolution gave me for something better? This cyber arm is attached to me, but is it me? And what will I'd do next year when iArm 7S comes out? And 20 years later? Everything that would be in the front of our morally attached, politically charged minds needs to bleed out of night city's zeitgeist. Luckily Cyberpunk has a rich history they can pull from but still... My biggest fear is that we will get another shallow egocentric saints row where bad ass is the only theme and consequences are few.
 
Basically what I want to see as well. Yeah it will be a lot of coding. But here's what I think. When it comes to the Cp2077 computer game, I'm pretty sure we're all a bunch of fanboys and girls here. Probably hoping that this will be the highlight of our lust for computer games. These days, computer games take 20 GIG, and even more when you factor in DLCs and updates/patches. I, for one, would be perfectly willing to go out and buy a 100gig SSD just for this game. So someone can code up the above 'crowd mechanics', and we can then download that DLC to further optimize the game.
 
ChrisWebb2020; said:
I think it would be ace if the list could be applied by enterprising NPCs against the player as well.

Great idea! You've given me some of my own. If I may expand... I think it would be cool if as a corporate or fixer you didn't just acquire wealth until you own everything like most video games but have to continuasly fight to keep that wealth and your investments afloat. Particularly from other corporates or mafias that play dirty. ( I want hits put on my head!)

Maybe early on in the game, after you finish a quest meddling against a powerful gang or corporation, you run into thugs that are significantly more augmented than you and they beat you up to teach you a lesson, possibly then taking the credits you earned too, or maybe a cyber limb? (Awesome)

Maybe your house can get broken into and an ambush awaits or they steal your favorite helmet or gun or exosuit and you have to go reaquire it making the game perpetual. (Of course there would have to be a hint to follow)

What if EVERY apartment in the game could become at one point for sale as people move around, or maybe even die (sorry Dave I just really wanted your penthouse!)

Maybe as you grow in fame and adventerosity you have people stalk you. As the media paparazzi finds out how adventurous you are they see money and hire netrunners to hack your brain to allow black market braindances in your head. (Oh shit did someone experience me assassinate the mayor? Guess I have some more loose ends to tie up ;))

But this is all drifting into "you won't make it to your car" territory so I'll digress before the topic police arrive.
 
I like the way you think. I have suggested similar things in the crime thread.

The original list is a pretty heavy load, but even if it is only applied in spirit it would be a great addition to the game.
 
And that's why it won't happen. All of this is side activity, and thus, far too complex and costly.

The thing is most of what I write about has already been solved prior and it is far easier to implement then say a physics engine.

Not everything needs to be modeled in details at the same time because like in real life, we wouldn't be interested in the life of every person or every business. A hierarchy of models can be used. The highest being the most simple but able to model the whole city.

On Pentium IIs, Capitalism II modelled most of what I said including reputation through media exposure, stock markets, corporate AI, supply chain, real estate, etc. even manufacturing.

http://www.capitalismlab.com/new-features.html

This is an example. You could add many things to the model including epidemics, crime, etc.

At the district level (where the player is), the model would take info from higher ups to generate items about the local area
income statements of businesses and gangs
employee lists
criminal and medical emergencies
create inventory(loot and info)
current position of major units (police cruisers, ambulance, key officers,inventory trucks, main gang units)

Around the immediate viscinity of the player, all the above model would be taken into account . For the citizens, a backstory could be created on the fly as needed and the only the important ones to create the illusion kept on file.

if you think about it, each different institutions(police, hospitals, mogue, etc) are conceptually really similar to mini-games like this:
http://www.introversion.co.uk/prisonarchitect/
or any management game really.

An intelligence service could be built around the idea of this(a minimalist and very good game):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_13_(video_game)

I took indie and older games as references just to show that these models were not huge drains on the machine or the devs.

In the long run, the side things are the main things. My main complaint with Skyrim is that after the quests,after that, the game becomes a doll house in fantsy Yellowstone National park. There's nothing to do and you have big zero impact on the game world. It is too easy to master its core concepts.

This is fairly complex, but complexity only means infinitely replayable. If that strategic element could be added, it would be great,
There's a reason why chess is still played 4000 years later.

Look at the Hearts of Iron series for example. There is no way that you can master the core concepts of this game in 100 hours. A very interesting narrative(your own) can definetely merge out of gameplay mechanics.

E.g. Imperial Japan rallies to the Allies and kicks Comintern asses
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...-(HPP)-AAR&p=12233610&viewfull=1#post12233610

Tibet takes on China and Japan
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...ght-The-Return-of-the-Kings-36-Tibet-(Modded)

Same with Dwarf Fortress if you're more fantasy inclined. http://dfstories.com/

These stories are simply based out of great game mechanics and it's possible to do it in an RPG

it is a wishlist. By nature they are always very ambitious
 
I for one hope that, at least on a limited scale, these are nearly all important parts of cdpr's concept for the game. It is a sandbox world after all, so "side activity" is important, but not as important as the feeling the world is moving without you, that it doesn't need you, and that you need to struggle to "run the edge" or even survive. A lot of this reminds of Mike Pondsmiths recent video for cyberpunk, particularly the mystery of the "shadowed faced people" and the fact they're all connected to their own intricate lives.

As far as coding it doesn't have to be to complicated, it's just a matter of clever algorithm's that can puzzle together a large number of presets into whatever random quest, political, financial, or criminal event (like psychos), npc personality, ect. best suits the situation without being broken, unbelievable, or overly redundant. A deep economy would be just about the only thing I'd deem too complex, but a limited version would be good for corporate players, and if done right could add a lot of hours.

A lot of roles revolve around these ideas, media's need dirt to dig up on people so they can have jobs, and possibly finish quests through intelligence gathering and blackmail. Corporates need the ability to sabotage companies to manipulate stocks, giving solos, techies, and netrunners work. Rockerboys and nomads need riots and crowds to manipulate or hide among. An open world is crap if it doesn't breath and have life.

Mostly I just hope the game is deep and just a few good elements can take it there. Skyrim's world completely trumped Oblivions with simple additions like lots of varied wildlife and even children, though my favorite is the personality, conflict and humanity painted everywhere in the world by the civil war (especially since both sides were so incredibly believable). Likewise one of my favorite aspects of DE:HR was the philosophic and moral dilemmas of cybernetic enhancement and the many sides and opinions portrayed, from bigotry to adoration. How poor crippled amputees couldn't afford the treatments but rich health people could for whimsical aesthetic reasons. How religiously opposed individuals were forced into augmentation if there wanted a chance in the competitive job market brought on by overpopulation. And all the science stuff like genetics and what not, was if you dug into it based in fact. It wasn't about run faster, punch harder, it was more about do I want to switch the leg that birth, Mother Nature, and evolution gave me for something better? This cyber arm is attached to me, but is it me? And what will I'd do next year when iArm 7S comes out? And 20 years later? Everything that would be in the front of our morally attached, politically charged minds needs to bleed out of night city's zeitgeist. Luckily Cyberpunk has a rich history they can pull from but still... My biggest fear is that we will get another shallow egocentric saints row where bad ass is the only theme and consequences are few.

Johnny Mnemonic got it right. Oddly enough, I mean the movie. I know, I know...Keanu...whatever. Good movie and it played on that disconnect. J-Bone: Snatch back your brain, zombie, and hold it!
 
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