Eldain and traps = Needs a nerf (now more for Madoc + Milva)

[ReaperTek]

Not sure if the comparison with Predatory Drive makes much sense here because Serpent Traps main purpose should still be it's destroy the highest Enemy Card after a special Card is played skill which is a very powerful effect and comparable to all the other expensive high removal Cards which sometimes also can brick and that the spring option was only added to remove the possibility that the Card becomes a complete brick if the opponent doesn't use a Special Card, so I don't think it was really intended to turn it in to another round start Scorch like PD, Blizzard or Manticore +OH Charge which even ends up making it easier to go for "weaker skill" (which additionally is 2 times repeatable with Iorveth and Hattori) in a lot of match ups than to go for the actual strong "main" skill of the Card.

I think the spring option should be changed to Spring: if the opponent controls at least 2 Units destroy the lowest enemy Unit because usually tall removal Card's like this come with a certain risk.

 

[Barracuda88]

...

I think the spring option should be changed to Spring: if the opponent controls at least 2 Units destroy the lowest enemy Unit because usually tall removal Card's like this come with a certain risk.

Personally, I think people shouldn't ask to nerf a card simply because they feel it's inconvenient to play around it. There's already plenty of risk involved.

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2021

Predatory dive doesn't remove the 1st card on the board, ignoring how the card actually works doesn't help the argument. It destroys the lowest cards on BOTH sides of the board. That distinction doesn't suddenly disappear to make your point. After the 1st turn it loses it's effectiveness, serpent trap doesn't. Also, you're the one comparing them mate not me so I'm not saying they're the same you are. But sure lets make them the same, add that condition to Serpent, it destroys cards on both sides....I'm good with that lol

That distinction absolutely "disappears" when you have no units on your side of the board to destroy, which is, once again, the moment in the game the main complaint was about. I'm sure you'd "be good" with making them the same, though. We're all about fair balance and reasonable impartial arguments here, after all.

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2021

How?

Post automatically merged: Apr 19, 2021

This is called PLAYING AROUND, not interacting.

"Interacting" does not equal "destroying" or "disabling." "Playing around" by purposefully triggering traps so as to give them the least amount of value is absolutely "interacting."

 

[Sensimilius]

Not sure if the comparison with Predatory Drive makes much sense here because Serpent Traps main purpose should still be it's destroy the highest Enemy Card after a special Card is played skill which is a very powerful effect and comparable to all the other expensive high removal Cards which sometimes also can brick and that the spring option was only added to remove the possibility that the Card becomes a complete brick if the opponent doesn't use a Special Card, so I don't think it was really intended to turn it in to another round start Scorch like PD, Blizzard or Manticore +OH Charge which even ends up making it easier to go for "weaker skill" (which additionally is 2 times repeatable with Iorveth and Hattori) in a lot of match ups than to go for the actual strong "main" skill of the Card.

I think the spring option should be changed to Spring: if the opponent controls at least 2 Units destroy the lowest enemy Unit because usually tall removal Card's like this come with a certain risk.

Exactly! People here seem to forget that the ambush ability is basically Curse of Corruption (9 provision card and can also brick while the serpent trap will never brick, it will always play for at least SOME points) that only kills enemies.
Also there are some very important units that are played later in the game that would be vulnerable to Serpent Trap, like Visigota, Siyanna, almost anything spawned by Caranthir and based on the situation others as well. All in all, it's too flexible and too versatile (for it's provision cost).

 

[Barracuda88]

Exactly! People here seem to forget that the ambush ability is basically Curse of Corruption (9 provision card and can also brick while the serpent trap will never brick, it will always play for at least SOME points) that only kills enemies!
Also there are some very important units that are played later in the game that would be vulnerable to Serpent Trap, like Visigota, Siyanna, almost anything spawned by Caranthir and based on the situation others as well. All in all, it's too flexible and too versatile (for it's provision cost).

Jeez. This thread is kind of sliding more and more towards nonsense. So Curse of Corruption will brick, but Serpent can NEVER brick? Is that a fact?

 

[Sensimilius]

Jeez. This thread is kind of sliding more and more towards nonsense. So Curse of Corruption will brick, but Serpent can NEVER brick? Is that a fact?

Well yes, it can play for lower points but you're never going to discard it. :]

 

[EduFerraz]

Well i always try to play the card (and of course the deck) to give my opinion if something needs to be nerfer or buffed.

So i played a few matches (maybe 15) and win a lot, lost a lot too.

Eldain its a good card, but he needs traps, and traps need to be good, and they arent. I mean incineration its a 5 for 5, but you cant choose wich unit you will kill, your opponent choose that.

Crushing trap its really good in the final rounds, specialy if you have some movement cards. But, despite that, you guys need to know you cant use so late in the round, because, problably, yoou need to use Eldain and Vernossiel to win the game. So thats card its not so good.

Pitfall trap - for me its the best, almost doenst brick but can be a 4 or 5 for 6 provision, but also, can be a lot for only 6 provision.

Serpent trap - well this is the "water divider". Indeed use it in the first rounds as a predator dive is really good, special if you use also Iorveth and Hattori, so you can kill 3 units at the beggening. Also 5 or 6 if you use well your other traps.

Buuuut, if your opponent plays wisely, in the first round he can try to play two units (like usurper) and bricks your combo. And, if that happens, problably he will bricks all your serpent trap because, as i said, in the final rounds you need to use Eldain and Vernossiel, and to use Eldain you will need to use the spring abillity. And, problably, because you already used your crushing traps, your opponent will have a unit with 1 or 2 points, and the serpent will kill that thing.

So, after saying all that shit i think eldai could have a body nerfed (like be 4 power). I mean, that doenst matter so much, because, if the combo goes well you dont need that, and if the combo doesnt work you will probably need much more than 6 power.

Also, i have to remind you need to win first round (or if thats not the case, your opponent dont bleed you in second). Also, in first round you need to win without using almost any trap and be with them in your hand. Also, you need Eldain and vernossiel in your hand.

So for concluse, its a good combo, problably a game winer, but its too draw dependent and not so consistent.

Of course, who lost for that combo will think its a superb combo and you cant interact with it, but, as i said, if they play with this deck they will see its not so good

 

[Barracuda88]

Well yes, it can play for lower points but you're never going to discard it. :]

It also can play for nothing if you drop it on the empty board and the opponent plays a special card. Granted this should only happen when you are forced to do it by unitless opponent, but that's also pretty much the only reason you would discard a CoC.

 

[Draconifors]

It also can play for nothing if you drop it on the empty board and the opponent plays a special card.

It can also play for nothing if you have two Traps going off at the same time and the first one kills the only valid target.

(Iorveth: Meditation... I have a love/hate relationship with that card.)

 

[Guest 4416545]

Traps deck are annoying as hell, and some match against them can be booring af, but i think they are waaaaaay far from being op and deserve a Nerf, i would not change nothing about trap archetype in general.

Pitfall trap - for me its the best, almost doenst brick but can be a 4 or 5 for 6 provision, but also, can be a lot for only 6 provision.

This is so accurate haha, like i only played 3/4 times a trap deck just to try a bit and dont know in normal circunstance what peopel does, but recently in my st movement deck i cut gerzas for avallach just to have consistency and i need some artifact in my deck so i choose scenario, location and this trap.

Well gonna go directly yo the point, this trap if timed good can be the one Who win alone.

Some examples:

Against sy Crimes if i mansge to win r1, in the bleed just before they put one unit i put the trap and i hella times ambush clever so far hahaha its soooo satisfying, from that point just 2-0 them, its just so devasting for them to kill It like that.

Against ng so far only 2 times i ambush usurper, but when happen its sooooo hillarous great, once i win a losed match just for this interaction.

And even against eist is hillarous and really easy to do since its kinda obvius when they gonna use it, so if this trap do not kill eist and brick the eist/leader combo maybe It kill a random unit and jutta Wont come to the board.

Again maybe its just because peopel dont play around It since they expect other trap but i still find pitfall hillarous great, way more than serpent.

 

[Barracuda88]

It can also play for nothing if you have two Traps going off at the same time and the first one kills the only valid target.

(Iorveth: Meditation... I have a love/hate relationship with that card.)

Yeah, sometimes this will happen without Iorveth, also.

 

[Anaeto]

The only Trap that has a body of its own is Treant Mantis: Stalk. Which I never see anyone except myself using because it's garbage.

Heatwave can destroy a Trap, which has the potential to be huge (Incinerating, Serpent, and Pitfall can snipe high-value cards).

Eldain is really good if you have multiple Traps (or other Artifacts in a Devotion deck), but if you don't then he's meh or even bad. Having loads of Traps but no Eldain means not many points.

I feel like Treant Mantis is only really garbage because forest whisperer is expensive by 1 provision. Or maybe the spring is just garbage

 

[Riven-Twain]

Moderator: A couple posts discarded to the Graveyard. Please, keep this friendly. There's no need for personal skirmishes. Thank you.

 

[Fargothwave]

Serpent Trap's Spring is just a Gold version of Predatory Dive.
The card is fine. Just play around it if you think the opponent has it.

ye, if there was just one, it would be a great bit of advice.
Unfortunately, you typically go up against several instances of it, and then some fire traps and a pitfall, which basically means you lose most of your units in the r3. You can "play around" maybe one or at most two Serpent Traps, but you have to start developing your points at some point.

And then have to face the sadistic choice of either losing your tallest unit or discarding your specials, and the latter is rarely a viable option, so instead you get CoCed for 7 provisions. Repeatedly. And I mean, that would be fine - there're several similar archetypes that do the same thing, but those don't get a huge payoff with Eldain.

 

[Draconifors]

which basically means you lose most of your units in the r3

Why on earth would you go for a long R3 against Traps, with a deck that struggles in that matchup? That's just asking for trouble.

You're over-exaggerating, too, so I'll not reply further.

 

[Anaeto]

Pretty sure ST needs more buffs than nerfs atm. Elf swarm & Harmony in particular. Call for Buffs to the terrible and/or expensive bronze and gold cards first before nerfing the few good cards. Eldain shouldn't get a provision nerf until the scenario and vernossiel do by 1 each. Eleyas and isengrim faolitiarna too.

Post automatically merged: Apr 21, 2021

Well i always try to play the card (and of course the deck) to give my opinion if something needs to be nerfer or buffed.

So i played a few matches (maybe 15) and win a lot, lost a lot too.

Eldain its a good card, but he needs traps, and traps need to be good, and they arent. I mean incineration its a 5 for 5, but you cant choose wich unit you will kill, your opponent choose that.

Crushing trap its really good in the final rounds, specialy if you have some movement cards. But, despite that, you guys need to know you cant use so late in the round, because, problably, yoou need to use Eldain and Vernossiel to win the game. So thats card its not so good.

Pitfall trap - for me its the best, almost doenst brick but can be a 4 or 5 for 6 provision, but also, can be a lot for only 6 provision.

Serpent trap - well this is the "water divider". Indeed use it in the first rounds as a predator dive is really good, special if you use also Iorveth and Hattori, so you can kill 3 units at the beggening. Also 5 or 6 if you use well your other traps.

Buuuut, if your opponent plays wisely, in the first round he can try to play two units (like usurper) and bricks your combo. And, if that happens, problably he will bricks all your serpent trap because, as i said, in the final rounds you need to use Eldain and Vernossiel, and to use Eldain you will need to use the spring abillity. And, problably, because you already used your crushing traps, your opponent will have a unit with 1 or 2 points, and the serpent will kill that thing.

So, after saying all that shit i think eldai could have a body nerfed (like be 4 power). I mean, that doenst matter so much, because, if the combo goes well you dont need that, and if the combo doesnt work you will probably need much more than 6 power.

Also, i have to remind you need to win first round (or if thats not the case, your opponent dont bleed you in second). Also, in first round you need to win without using almost any trap and be with them in your hand. Also, you need Eldain and vernossiel in your hand.

So for concluse, its a good combo, problably a game winer, but its too draw dependent and not so consistent.

Of course, who lost for that combo will think its a superb combo and you cant interact with it, but, as i said, if they play with this deck they will see its not so good

Incinerating needs to spring for 4. Its one of the reasons why its so hard to win round 1 with this deck. The spring on this 5p trap can't even kill 4 power 4 provision engines. Or they take it down to 4p. People normally assume that you normally start off with this trap so they play a 2 power tutor into it.

 

[Anaeto]

The only Trap that has a body of its own is Treant Mantis: Stalk. Which I never see anyone except myself using because it's garbage.

Heatwave can destroy a Trap, which has the potential to be huge (Incinerating, Serpent, and Pitfall can snipe high-value cards).

Eldain is really good if you have multiple Traps (or other Artifacts in a Devotion deck), but if you don't then he's meh or even bad. Having loads of Traps but no Eldain means not many points.

Thought about this some more and decided that you are actually right, it does suck. Though a provision nerf on forest whisperer will make the Treant Mantis: Stalk better. The card itself is not that great because its a 6 for 6 with poison on ambush and a 6 for 6 on spring without poison while not being able to get added eldain transform value. What needs to change is that the spring should also poison and in this case you're risking a counter via purify, veil or defender. The benefit of ambush will remain that the opponent won't get the opportunity to purify or veil it unless they are running the carapace leader. The ambush on this trap is actually quite useful but to rely solely on the ambush is not as fun and increases its brick potential. For example, when you know they're playing kolgrim you just drop this trap right before they play Kolgrim and finish the poison with the forest whisperer. I did this twice already and both times my opponents were impressed. Which is normally the opposite reaction of a loss to a trap deck

 

[Barracuda88]

Thought about this some more and decided that you are actually right, it does suck. Though a provision nerf on forest whisperer will make the Treant Mantis: Stalk better. The card itself is not that great because its a 6 for 6 with poison on ambush and a 6 for 6 on spring without poison while not being able to get added eldain transform value. What needs to change is that the spring should also poison and in this case you're risking a counter via purify, veil or defender. The benefit of ambush will be that the opponent won't get the opportunity to purify or veil it unless they are running carapace leader. The ambush on this trap is actually quite useful but to rely solely on the ambush is not as fun and increases its brick potential. For example, when you know they're playing kolgrim you just drop this trap right before they play Kolgrim and finish the poison with the forest whisperer. I did this twice already and both times my opponents were impressed. Which is normally the opposite reaction of a loss to a trap deck

It's better to just fire trap Kolgrim, since more often than not he's going to be behind a defender, and the poison won't get there.

As to the Mantis, maybe give it Harmony.

 

[Anaeto]

It's better to just fire trap Kolgrim, since more often than not he's going to be behind a defender, and the poison won't get there.

As to the Mantis, maybe give it Harmony.

Serpent trap spring on kolgrim relies on him being the lowest or only unit on the board. This is very unlikely. Its ambush relies on the opponent using a special card afterwards. That is also very unlikely. I forgot to add that the mantis trap is also not replayable by iorveth. Iorveth i'm not sure should cost the same as hattori. Hattori is obviously more valuable. I wouldn't mind the harmony tag on the mantis strike but that would require a base power reduction. It could be the 4th poison completion for harmony. However i would prefer a buffed 4p forest whisperer serve that purpose. Would be nice if it at least triggers harmony on spring. Cos i'm Pretty sure it doesn't. And it doesn't make sense. Its like when madocs cataclysm removes the dragons dream(a bomb) effect. You expect synergy with certain cards and it just isn't there.

 

[Tucoffin]

I forgot to add that the mantis trap is also not replayable by iorveth.

Thanks for this interesting bit of information. Thus we can derive that units cannot be targeted by Iorveth in future expansions, even if they were placed on the board originally as traps.

 

[Draconifors]

Well, Mantis transform into a unit, so the Trap ceases to exist and therefore Iorveth cannot pick it up.