Eldain and traps = Needs a nerf (now more for Madoc + Milva)

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Such an annoying idea for an archetype.
2 Main problems here:

1st: ELDAIN - This card needs to be nerfed to 5 power and 11 provisions (or 4 power for 10 provs) for currently it can give too much points to unitless trap decks.
OR (better yet) put a cap on how many traps he can convert! I mean imagine if Munro Bruys didn't have a cap on how many Rowdy Dwarves he can transform into Dwarven Berserkers? Imagine if it was like "Turn all of your Rowdy Dwarves in Berserkers". :[ or All Rowdy Dwarves on this row (since dwarves are all about row stacking).... also would be broken.

2nd: Serpent Trap - This is too versatile, the sheer absolutistic nature of CLICK TO DESTROY a card is too much since it can be activated as soon as used. I agree that this card needed some spring ability cause without it it was too bad. But the fact that you can just throw it and instantly play it is too much, AND you can replay this thing UP TO THREE TIMES with Iorveth and Hattori. -_-
Simple rework: Make it an ORDER so you can't just put it down and use it instantly OR add a condition that it's spring effect only works of the opponent has 2, 3 or more units on board. They already have the Spike Trap which at worst is a less accurate version of SK's Delirium or at best case a 13 point random damage spray.
 
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Guest 4375874

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A LOT of things need balancing tbh, I don't know when or if they'll get to this. I think the problem with traps is bigger than that, they are essentially untouchable, there are no cards that can disable them. You can't see what they are until they're activated which is ridiculous but if they aren't hidden then they aren't really traps. Even if your proposed change is made it would still be a problem. I think traps should only play a support role for the faction and not outright strong to the point it is now. This notion that every mechanic needs to be ridiculously strong or result in a massive pt swing is why the game will never be balanced. Add poison...it must remove units without limit, add rupture... it must do the highest damage possible, add adrenaline.... it must give cards some insane point swings. Now even bronze cards are better than golds....I mean WHY.

I realize now none of my matches go beyond R2. I can determine whether I'll win or lose by the end of R1 so even winning is a bore. Either I'll be assured of a win because my cards are too much for my opponent to even make a play or my loss is assured because I know his/her remaining cards are overtuned so I just forfeit.
 
Such an annoying idea for an archetype.
2 Main problems here:

1st: ELDAIN - This insane card needs to be nerfed to 5 power and 12 provisions (or 4 power for 11 provs) for the insane points it can give to unitless trap decks.
OR (better yet) put a cap on how many traps he can convert! I mean imagine if Munro Bruys didn't have a cap on how many Rowdy Dwarves he can transform into Dwarven Berserkers?? Imagine if it was like "Turn all of your Rowdy Dwarves in Berserkers". -_- or All Rowdy Dwarves on this row (since dwarves are all about row stacking).... also would be broken.

2nd: Serpent Trap - This is too versatile, the sheer absolutistic nature of CLICK TO DESTROY a card is too much since it can be activated as soon as used. I agree that this card needed some spring ability cause without it it was too bad. But the fact that you can just throw it and instantly play it is too much, AND you can replay this thing UP TO THREE TIMES with Iorveth and Hattori. -_-
Simple rework: Make it an ORDER so you can't just put it down and use it instantly OR add a condition that it's spring effect only works of the opponent has 2, 3 or more units on board. They already have the Spike Trap which at worst is a less accurate version of SK's Delirium or at best case a 13 point random damage spray.
I expect Eldain to be nerfed in the next patch, certainly 6 power for 10 provisions is too much (but maybe they were on to that and just tried it out). I have a hunch he'll change to 5 power for 11 provisions due to the dev team adjustment history, though I deem 3 power for the same 10 provisions fairer (or one Dead Eye elf less in total). I agree with your points here.

I do not believe Serpent Trap should be touched, however, it is a conditional removal tool for a devotion ST deck which also requires planning. Its cost is reasonable, not as versatile as a true removal card (such as Heatwave), can be dealt with and can also backfire. It can be quite valuable on boards with just one tall enemy unit, though, and that is a valid strategy to build upon.
 
The main problem is that we can't interact with traps. And this is not just a spell, this is a spell with a hidden body. And this is just cheating.

I think traps should only play a support role
Yes. If they give traps an archetype status then they should give us tools to interact with this archetype.
 
Such an annoying idea for an archetype.
2 Main problems here:

1st: ELDAIN - This insane card needs to be nerfed to 5 power and 12 provisions (or 4 power for 11 provs) for the insane points it can give to unitless trap decks.
OR (better yet) put a cap on how many traps he can convert! I mean imagine if Munro Bruys didn't have a cap on how many Rowdy Dwarves he can transform into Dwarven Berserkers?? Imagine if it was like "Turn all of your Rowdy Dwarves in Berserkers". -_- or All Rowdy Dwarves on this row (since dwarves are all about row stacking).... also would be broken.

2nd: Serpent Trap - This is too versatile, the sheer absolutistic nature of CLICK TO DESTROY a card is too much since it can be activated as soon as used. I agree that this card needed some spring ability cause without it it was too bad. But the fact that you can just throw it and instantly play it is too much, AND you can replay this thing UP TO THREE TIMES with Iorveth and Hattori. -_-
Simple rework: Make it an ORDER so you can't just put it down and use it instantly OR add a condition that it's spring effect only works of the opponent has 2, 3 or more units on board. They already have the Spike Trap which at worst is a less accurate version of SK's Delirium or at best case a 13 point random damage spray.
Nothing wrong with Serpent trap at all. It's a 7p predatory dive that can be played around easily.

Eldain can play for insane value, but the trade off is the traps play for very little value themselves on average. Crushing Trap routinely has to play for 4-6 points. Incinerating plays for 5 for 5 at max and a lot of time it's like 2-3 points for 5. Even Pitfall and Serpent, which were buffed to at least average up to a decent value, are FAR FAR from being OP. So yeah, there is a card that can add 3 points of value on top of those traps, in one round, once per match. To me, that's very reasonable, and I don't think he needs a nerf.
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The main problem is that we can't interact with traps. And this is not just a spell, this is a spell with a hidden body. And this is just cheating.


Yes. If they give traps an archetype status then they should give us tools to interact with this archetype.
Yes, you can interact with traps. You just can't destroy them. And there's no hidden body. That a single card exists that can add 3 points to flipped traps doesn't equal traps having a hidden body.
 
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The only Trap that has a body of its own is Treant Mantis: Stalk. Which I never see anyone except myself using because it's garbage. :D

Heatwave can destroy a Trap, which has the potential to be huge (Incinerating, Serpent, and Pitfall can snipe high-value cards).

Eldain is really good if you have multiple Traps (or other Artifacts in a Devotion deck), but if you don't then he's meh or even bad. Having loads of Traps but no Eldain means not many points.
 
I agree with the idea that there should be some way to interact with the archetype beyond heatwave. Having a single neutral card (or potentially 2 if you count shupe) as the only means of dealing with artifacts is bad. I realize they did this to increase artifact use, but it is just bad. Shackles also used to be an effective counter to the old "ambush" archetype, so maybe bring some flavor of that back.

NG haters: Before you fly off the handle :) I would NOT advocate making every lock able to do this, but maybe just dimerterium shackles specifically could specify "lock a unit or artifact". Or re-re-re-work dimeterium bomb to serve that purpose (again).

Bottom line, there needs to be some way to deal with artifacts/traps/scenarios again, beyond a single card.

I read a year or 2 ago (time flies!) Someone suggest giving artifacts something similar to armor. Not a bag idea imho; if you're willing to dedicate a couple removal plays to take out the armor the artifact/trap can be removed that way... Just an idea. Not sure exactly what that would look like.
 
Well, honestly I have fixed feelings concerning Eldain.
On the one hand I am very happy that the trap archetype in now playable. Furthermore, I think that Eldain is only really powerful if you are lucky with your draw (many traps + Eldain + Deadeye benefitters like Vernossiel or Isengrim Faoiltiarna). All those Eldain + Traps strategies can be go great but also go very bad dependent on the draw.
On the other hand, there is a basic gwent rule that strong deployers should have low body. Compare him with Philippa: Blind Fury. If everything goes perfectly Philippa´s deploy brings 11 points. Then she would be a 12 for 12 plus intense removal potential. Eldain´s deploy however, can dependent on the set up be easily on average around 12 points and he´s only 10 provisions. Thus, a body decrease (my favorite) or provision decrease are more than justified.
 
I was so happy when they revived my trap cards, giving them more abilities and combo possibilities, so now they can make the main idea for a deck. :love:

I agree with the guys saying that Serpents Trap is right as it is. To self-activate the card has no great use if the opponent floods his rows with weak / swarm cards. And like I have to adjust my tactics every time I face NG, my opponent has to adjust his tactics when he faces my traps (just don't play you're high and mighty card as your first body on the field). If you fall for that a second time than it really should hurt in order that you learn the lesson. ^^' I think it's fair enough.

Eldain (as already said by others) can settle the match, but he really needs good preparations.. and luck, regarding the cards you draw. So, let's say, he can win one round pretty easily. But to win two rounds is quite difficult, because you have to keep in mind how many traps (and which one exactly) you already have played. If I use him in the first round to settle the match, Isengrim Faoiltiarna becomes quite useless in the next round and Vernossiel can't use her attack ability anymore.. All three cards have higher provision costs, too high to install another effectiv tactic in your deck.
Also, the devotion ability of Eldain is quite the joke - the only other SK artefact is the scenario, that does not make a big difference.

In conclusion: There is a lot of luck necessary to get the full potential out of Eldain - in one round. To win another round without him depends on luck and the opponents knowledge of traps and tactics.

(I just wouldn't recommend a nerf because I don't want to see my traps going back to their graves. :D At least be easy with the nerf..)
 
I don't think that the serpent trap buff is too much of a problem, not even with Eldain. Every faction has their favorite combo which requires some kind of set-up ... so why should the Eldain Trap Combo be too powerful? In a meta full of NG Joachim and SK Eist ... why shouldn't there be a Scoia'tel Removal?
 

Guest 4375874

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Nothing wrong with Serpent trap at all. It's a 7p predatory dive that can be played around easily.
Why do people keep comparing this to predatory dive. Predatory dive:
1. Destroys the lowest unit....that's it, not lowest or highest
2. It destroys your lowest unit as well and as such has a very steep condition, very situational and bricks very easily. High risk vs high reward, that is not the case with serpent trap.
3. It cannot be played repeatedly 2 more times using other cards
4. It doesn't provide you with a 3pt body

These are not the same thing.
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I don't think that the serpent trap buff is too much of a problem, not even with Eldain. Every faction has their favorite combo which requires some kind of set-up ... so why should the Eldain Trap Combo be too powerful? In a meta full of NG Joachim and SK Eist ... why shouldn't there be a Scoia'tel Removal?
You're using Eist and Joachim quadruple play as justification as though people aren't asking for those to be nerfed as well. They're all in the same category. MO has no unconditional removal card and frankly as a MO player I'd prefer less factions had them more than I would having one added to MO.
 
I agree with the idea that there should be some way to interact with the archetype beyond heatwave. Having a single neutral card (or potentially 2 if you count shupe) as the only means of dealing with artifacts is bad. I realize they did this to increase artifact use, but it is just bad. Shackles also used to be an effective counter to the old "ambush" archetype, so maybe bring some flavor of that back.
People keep repeating this, but that's just not true. You CAN interact with traps, just not destroy them without Heatwave. You interact by triggering the trap in a way that will give your opponent the least possible amount of value. Your opponent meanwhile, is trying to play his traps in such a way as to get the most of value out of them. Which to me seems a lot more interesting of an interaction than placing a bunch of zero-trap traps on board for you to destroy in a bunch of different ways.

And I'm not crazy about bringing back the shackles flavor. Personally, I'd rather see the "flavor" of traps hitting before deploy :D
 
Destroys the lowest unit....that's it, not lowest or highest
Serpent Trap's Spring effect is equivalent to Predatory Dive when played as first card.
Serpent as a whole is a stronger card because it's a Gold.

It cannot be played repeatedly 2 more times using other cards
Pred. Dive is a Bronze and can be played twice without needing other cards.

It doesn't provide you with a 3pt body
Traps only provide a body if they are transformed by Eldain. A trap on its own does not provide a body (unless it's the Mantis). People keep ignoring this very real condition and it's not helping their arguments. Eldain is not a given.

Pred. Dive provides a 1-point body if played with Arachas Swarm -- and that is comparable because it's a condition just like Eldain. Drones can be valuable, too.
 
Why do people keep comparing this to predatory dive. Predatory dive:
1. Destroys the lowest unit....that's it, not lowest or highest
2. It destroys your lowest unit as well and as such has a very steep condition, very situational and bricks very easily. High risk vs high reward, that is not the case with serpent trap.
3. It cannot be played repeatedly 2 more times using other cards
4. It doesn't provide you with a 3pt body

These are not the same thing.
No, they are not. Serpent is a 7p gold card, while the dive is a 5p bronze. Sorry, do you want them to be the same? Would that make every more fair for you?

People compare them because the complaint here about the Serpent is that it's used to immediately remove the first card on the board. Which is EXACTLY how the dive is used.
 

Guest 4375874

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No, they are not. Serpent is a 7p gold card, while the dive is a 5p bronze. Sorry, do you want them to be the same? Would that make every more fair for you?

People compare them because the complaint here about the Serpent is that it's used to immediately remove the first card on the board. Which is EXACTLY how the dive is used.
Predatory dive doesn't remove the 1st card on the board, ignoring how the card actually works doesn't help the argument. It destroys the lowest cards on BOTH sides of the board. That distinction doesn't suddenly disappear to make your point. After the 1st turn it loses it's effectiveness, serpent trap doesn't. Also, you're the one comparing them mate not me so I'm not saying they're the same you are. But sure lets make them the same, add that condition to Serpent, it destroys cards on both sides....I'm good with that lol
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Pred. Dive provides a 1-point body if played with Arachas Swarm -- and that is comparable because it's a condition just like Eldain. Drones can be valuable, too.
Serpent trap isn't leader specific, that's an advantage not a disadvantage. So the argument that using Arachas gives a 1pt token IF you use this leader misses the mark entirely. That's a condition that requires a specific leader vs Aldain which doesn't. In my mind one of these conditions is more demanding than the other but in any case it is what it is :shrug: and @Sensimilius appears to be in agreement with you despite his suggestion so we'll have to agree to disagree there.
 
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People be comparing this with Predatory Dive but why not compare it with Imperial Manticore (another 7 provision gold card)? I think that's a better comparison.
Sure the Manticore has 5 power body but that's insignificant with the fact that it's ability is a deathwish and thus requires a consume (or something to kill it) which is a significant commitment since it can only work with Undying Hunger leader ability which is a serious commitment. If you take more turns to set up your consume cards (if you can't use your leader for it) then you lose the initiative that the Manticore needs to be effective. Manticore doesn't have the luxury of being useful in late parts of a round (unless it's in that one deck where you try to have many Weaveses to trigger deathwishes on deploy) like the Serpent Trap does when it can kill THE HIGHEST unit on the opponent's side of the board.

Imagine if Manticore had "Zeal, Order: Destroy self." so we can just play it and trigger it instantly and BAM the other card is dead. OR if it had "Adrenaline 2: Deathwish destroys the highest enemy unit instead.".

Let's take a look at how many MO decks play Imperial Manticore and how many ST decks play Serpent Trap and we'll see which is the stronger card. :]
@replayNinja I only agreed with some of his statements lol.
 
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I think that's a better comparison.
Why? Because the Pred. Dive comparison is too valid? Perhaps the correct comparison would be Pred. Dive vs Manticore (but that would have nothing to do with this topic).

Manticore having a 5 body absolutely is not insignificant because that 5 power will be transferred to the Overwhelming Hunger Ekimmara or whatever else Consumes the Manticore. Whereas Serpent Trap still does not have a body -- and even with Eldain it only provides 3 points.

Let's take a look at how many MO decks play Imperial Manticore and how many ST decks play Serpent Trap and we'll see which is the stronger card.
Viy is dominating OH decks, and Manticore is, from what I've seen, rarely played with other Leaders because OH is the natural choice for Deathwish. Before Viy Manticore was a super common card to see, and playing around it could be huge -- just like with Serpent now.
(Viy also is not the topic here; I'm simply stating a couple of facts that are related via Manticore.)

Probably all Trap decks play Serpent but that is simply because it is a good card. No one is disputing that.
The dispute is where people call the card OP, when it really isn't. Play some games with it and you'll see.
 
Yes, you can interact with traps.
How?
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Also, the devotion ability of Eldain is quite the joke
Agree. This should be like Deploy: spawn 1 Elven Deadeye Devotion: flip your traps instead.

You CAN interact with traps, just not destroy them without Heatwave. You interact by triggering the trap in a way that will give your opponent the least possible amount of value. Your opponent meanwhile, is trying to play his traps in such a way as to get the most of value out of them. Which to me seems a lot more interesting of an interaction than placing a bunch of zero-trap traps on board for you to destroy in a bunch of different ways.
This is called PLAYING AROUND, not interacting.
 
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Well as already argued there should be a single rule in gwent. Strong deploy = low body and/or high provision. Comparing Eldain with cards like Philippa, Munro Bruys, Aguara: True Form, Avallac'h: Sage, Angoulême, Carlo Varese, Enraged Ifrit and Vivienne: Oriole show that Eldain is overpowered and should have lower body / higher provision.

Regarding Serpent Trap:

I think it´s currently completely ok. When you play against MO (expecially against AS) you probably know that starting with a high body engine (often + tactical advantage stratagem) is risky. Same holds now for SC (espcially against trap decks) because of Sepent Trap´s spring.
Honestly, Predatory Dive is almost exclusively used in AS swarm because it´s organic. Serpent Trap I saw in many SC decks (also in ones without synergies).
Nevertheless other fractions also have comparable 7 (or less) provisions destroy alternatives:
- SK: Champion's Charge (+ can target every unit which is not protected by the defender; - need Bloodthirst 3 (otherwise 5 dmg), no other synergies)
- MO: Impediatory dive already mentioned (+ 2 provisions less, +1 body in AS Swarm; - can only target lowest units like Serpent traps spring and also destroys your lowest unit)
- MO: Manticore already mentioned (+ +5 body; - deathwish needed, can only target lowest units like Serpent traps spring)
- NG: Vanhemar (+ + 1 provision, + 3 body; - tagret must be locked)

SY must jump up to 9 provisions for a fraction specific destroy. NR has no real destroyers (but duellers are somehow comparable combined with shields)
 
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