Eldain and traps = Needs a nerf (now more for Madoc + Milva)

[Damashiuchi]

Well... if an opponent plays an 8 point unit. I can deal with the 8 point unit. If an opponent plays an 8 point trap, I can't deal with the 8 point trap. Unless, as you allude, I keep enough removal on hand to clear the entire enemy row before I pass... Which is, again, absurd. And I would hardly ascribe playing multiple cards on a single row as "setup"...c'mon.. There's only 2 rows.

I am glad to see that you reluctantly agreed that something could be included to deal with them, though. Although your idea is terrible; A completely dedicated card that costs more than over half of the units it can deal with and has 0 additional utility? So it literally is a brick in a majority of the matches you play? I think if you're being intellectually honest with yourself, you can see how ridiculous that is.

Ultimately, lucky for you and me, it's not up to us.

 

[Barracuda88]

Well... if an opponent plays an 8 point unit. I can deal with the 8 point unit. If an opponent plays an 8 point trap, I can't deal with the 8 point trap. Unless, as you allude, I keep enough removal on hand to clear the entire enemy row before I pass... Which is, again, absurd. And I would hardly ascribe playing multiple cards on a single row as "setup"...c'mon.. There's only 2 rows.

I am glad to see that you reluctantly agreed that something could be included to deal with them, though. Although your idea is terrible; A completely dedicated card that costs more than over half of the units it can deal with and has 0 additional utility? So it literally is a brick in a majority of the matches you play? I think if you're being intellectually honest with yourself, you can see how ridiculous that is.

Ultimately, lucky for you and me, it's not up to us.

You talk about intellectual honesty and then toss out these strange arguments, continuously using the term "absurd" yet not seeing the irony. So you can "deal" with an 8 point unit, but "dealing" with an 8 point trap that needs units around it to get value equal to its provision, oh no that's just crazy talk. So for you to be comfortable, your opponent must play a single card every turn and all of his point absolutely must go into that card. What happens when it's a spawn and play card? What happens when it's a card that boosts another card? What happens when it's a card that boosts multiple, or even god forbid ALL units? How do you deal with that? Since "dealing" for you mean immediately destroying whatever the opponent played, how do you "deal" with the the points that are split into 15 different units? And for that matter, since it's "absurd" to you to "clear entire row (!!)" why didn't you "deal" with those units to prevent the row from being filled? Do you see how silly this is? There are different cards in gwent, and they work in different ways. That's not bad. Slapping cards down and removing numbers back and forth might be your idea of fun (though you probably don't think so), but thankfully that's probably not going to happen in gwent.

And as for your critique of my idea, I understand that ideally what you would want is a 4p bronze that destroyed all traps, artifacts and locations, and put 5 points on the board at the same time just to make sure it never bricks, and preferrably was of whatever faction you personally prefer, but no, if I'm "intellectually honest," I don't think my suggestion was unfair. Traps have high provision costs and ZERO inherent value. Either your proposed removal cards are as strict as I listed above, OR every trap will need to have a condition "if destroyed, spawn a deadeye" WITHOUT Eldain.

 

[quintivarium]

Uninteractive is not always synonymous with nonstrategic. There is a lot of strategy both playing and playing against traps. And uninteractivity is an appropriate balance to excessive control. One player’s deck should not be criticized because another’s lacks proactivity. Excessive control, if unpunishable, is every bit as bad for the game as excessive uninteractivity.

However, there is a problem when a large number of points can be hidden where the other player cannot reach them. This is the big problem with Viy. It is a lesser problem with the likes of Eldain and Madoc. The real issue is how many “hidden” points are too many. Unlike Viy, which typically triggers for 75-100 points, Eldain and Madoc are likely to trigger for 15. I honestly don’t know whether this is too much.

 

[rrc]

That would be great if you knew what trap your opponent played... but of course by their very nature you don't...so, no... You CANNOT interact with traps... AT ALL without heatwave.

And even if you can make an educated guess which trap they played, you still can't do anything about it in most cases. So if you're pretty sure they just dropped the N00B horn, for example.. You have to either spend heatwave, or potentially 2+ other cards to make up the eight points you know are coming when you pass... It's Obsurd!! Make it trigger when YOU pass instead of your opponent and see how that feels!!

I Stand by my opinion that there should be more than a single very expensive way to deal with artifacts, including traps.

Essentially you're saying "Viy is fine, just play cards that give you more value.". Or "Mq Ball is fine, just don't give them any valuable targets." Or "Eist is fine, just...pray.". Makes no sense..

Honestly, I have never seen an argument which is more confusing like this one; where you say you can't know which trap the opponent played. That is what a trap is. It is like you hate Hide and Seek because people Hide and you have to Seek. When opponent plays a trap, which are all over-priced and mostly don't play for their value, it is to trick into thinking that it is something else and to get some value out of the "it is a trap" surprise. How to play around them, I will cover for you later.

But you being angry on Horn is actually very amusing and funny for me. It is an 8 for 8 in the best case. If you kill the unit on one of its side, it is a 4 for 8. Horn's only purpose is to make you think it is a Crushing Trap or Serpent Trap and make you pass. That is its only soul purpose. On its own, it is very very mediocre and in high level, even in trap decks, people don't play Horn.

Well... if an opponent plays an 8 point unit. I can deal with the 8 point unit. If an opponent plays an 8 point trap, I can't deal with the 8 point trap. Unless, as you allude, I keep enough removal on hand to clear the entire enemy row before I pass... Which is, again, absurd. And I would hardly ascribe playing multiple cards on a single row as "setup"...c'mon.. There's only 2 rows.

I am glad to see that you reluctantly agreed that something could be included to deal with them, though. Although your idea is terrible; A completely dedicated card that costs more than over half of the units it can deal with and has 0 additional utility? So it literally is a brick in a majority of the matches you play? I think if you're being intellectually honest with yourself, you can see how ridiculous that is.

Ultimately, lucky for you and me, it's not up to us.

If it is instead an 8 for 8 unit, how would you handle it? You kept saying 'if it is a unit I will handle/interact with it'. You would do 8 point damage on the unit? With rockslide? Instead, kill the unit on one of the side and you are actually taking value out of the trap. Even if you can't remove the units on the side, that stupid card has played for 8 points at the most. An 8 for 8 in the best case. What is your problem with an 8 point card playing for 8 points? Of all the traps, this is the most interactive trap for the opponent, and least proactive for the players.

Now, coming to the myth that traps are un-interactable and only Heatwave is the answer, let me try to explain how you can play against/around trap:

1) Opponent plays a trap. Mostly they will throw Incinerating Trap first. Play your 4P card. If it is incinerating trap and if it kills the 4p card, then be happy about it as the opponent played a 5P card to remove your 4P card. Now, if it is Pitfall Trap and kills your unit, be even more happy. The trap is nullified. If you had to play an Order unit with < 5 strength (I think all valuable order units are moved out of 5 point range making this card even more junker) and if it gets killed, it is the same effect as having your unit killed with a 5P removal card.
2) Now, the trap hasn't ambushed. Then it can be either Crushing Trap, Horn or Serpent Trap. Play your card on the row with lesser units to play around Crushing Trap and see if it is Crushing Trap. In this turn you can confirm or eliminate Crushing Trap. If it is Crushing Trap, you have been brilliant and removed 2 values out of it by playing around it.
3) The trap hasn't ambushed in 2 turns now. Now, it is either Serpent Trap or Horn. If you don't have any tall unit play a special card to trigger it. If you do have a tall unit and want it to stay alive, avoid playing special card and laugh like crazy since your opponent played a 7P card which is going to kill your lowest unit. If it is R3 and you have to play a special card, then either play a special early to have your tall unit killed so that this trap is out of the picture. If you can not avoid the special card, then the opponent has got value out of his Serpent Trap.

There are only three "if" conditions here. If it has triggered when you played a card/unit (Incinerating/Pitfall). If it has triggered on the next turn (Crushing Trap). If not, it is either Horn or Serpent and play around this. In all these cases, please be rest assured that most of the times the traps play for much lesser value than their provision cost in this hugely powercrept era.

I know, with Hattori and Ioverth you can't completely eliminate a trap once it is ambushed as it can be replayed or spawned. In either case, the best course of action is following the 3 "IFs".

 

[Iuliandrei]

Eldain is one of the best finishers in the game right now and deadeye ambush is one of the most played decks so i really didn't understand the decision to give neophytes the ability to make even more deadeyes. First of all the flavor makes no sense and secondly, sure it's a very small and possibly insignificant change but why add more support to the most played archetype in ST?

 

[xXxSELKETxXx]

BUMP! This no skill deck abuse needs a huuuuge NERF!!!! both in provisions and power! Elf leader needs to only spawn 2 deadeyes at 2 power.

 

[Ripnes81]

Playing 5 -6 traps in a row, traps destroys everything on table, flips them over to elves and the boost them all, not to mention that i won first round and like you can se he probably had the card that makes all the elves rangers to do damage? He was at 61 points at that stage

 

[Draconifors]

That's why you need to win R1 and bleed R2 against Traps. Those screenshots are also of a best case scenario for the ST player, so of course they have a lot of points.

 

[Ripnes81]

Sorry but i dont buy your replay on this. I won first round, i passed second one to have an advantage on last round and they just simply put 5 card in a row on the table without beeing possible to interact at all with them? And after they have been used just to be able to turn them over to 3 points units so he can boots them and do mass damage? Really?

 

[Draconifors]

i passed second one to have an advantage on last round

Mistake. If you bleed the traps R2 the opponent won't have any to play R3.

 

[Ripnes81]

Right i have been trying that to exept that they spawn Sentry and Cat that is on Adrenaline. GL bleeding that out without a few locks in your hand.
we are talking about 2x5 provision cards , funny isnt it

 

[Draconifors]

If Traps were so OP then why is no one playing them? I can't even remember the last time I saw it in my own game or on streams.
It's a deck that you need to learn to play against. SK (in those screenshots) really shouldn't have a problem with that with the points they generate, if you know an effective strategy (and aren't running a garbage deck).

 

[EduFerraz]

If Traps were so OP then why is no one playing them? I can't even remember the last time I saw it in my own game or on streams.
It's a deck that you need to learn to play against. SK (in those screenshots) really shouldn't have a problem with that with the points they generate, if you know an effective strategy (and aren't running a garbage deck).

Well, deadeye ambush was The 4th most played in pro rank Last seasonal and 5th in win rate.

Unless you think those deadeye decks arent running traps. Yes, you can say every seasonal deadeye has a Good play and win rate, but in this seasonal The traps deck were dominant.

We Just need to look in The team Elder Blood and leviatham, both teans put deadeye ambush with traps as The meta (tier 2, ok, but with The traps)

Post automatically merged: Jun 10, 2021

Despite that, i agree with you, we need to always bleed traps in round 2.

But I Also agree with ripness sometimes its really Hard

 

[Draconifors]

Well, deadeye ambush was The 4th most played in pro rank Last seasonal and 5th in win rate.

I said I didn't really see any, which I didn't, despite watching a lot of Pro rank streams.

Meta reports I have never paid any attention to, because they're third-party and never based on complete data (only CDPR have that).

 

[EduFerraz]

I said I didn't really see any, which I didn't, despite watching a lot of Pro rank streams.

Meta reports I have never paid any attention to, because they're third-party and never based on complete data (only CDPR have that).

Well i cant say what you are watching and what you arent, and of course if you said you didnt see people playing that i beleve in you.

BUUUT, you cant say "If Traps were so OP then why is no one playing them?" Its not because you are not facing traps decks no one is playing it.

And, for that discusion i bring the CDPR data, wich deadeye ambush is the top 5 win rate in all the ranks (in pro its the 5th) and also has the 4th playrate in pro rank.

And, to contribute with this "line of thinking" i mentioned 2 teams analyses, since only by the data bringed by the devs i cant say if those deadeye decks has traps. But, as i said, if 2 diferent teams put that deck in the meta, there is more problablity the deadeyes deck played in last seasonal was with traps

 

[Anaeto]

Well i cant say what you are watching and what you arent, and of course if you said you didnt see people playing that i beleve in you.

BUUUT, you cant say "If Traps were so OP then why is no one playing them?" Its not because you are not facing traps decks no one is playing it.

And, for that discusion i bring the CDPR data, wich deadeye ambush is the top 5 win rate in all the ranks (in pro its the 5th) and also has the 4th playrate in pro rank.

And, to contribute with this "line of thinking" i mentioned 2 teams analyses, since only by the data bringed by the devs i cant say if those deadeye decks has traps. But, as i said, if 2 diferent teams put that deck in the meta, there is more problablity the deadeyes deck played in last seasonal was with traps

Last season Radeyah elves was the popular Deadeye Ambush deck.

 

[UMA22]

Explain how having 6 traps out of 25 cards is "completely uninteractive." Explain how 6 traps "delete everything your opponent throws out." I'm sure you have fun "autowinning," but I also have a feeling you hyperbolize more than you autowin. Might also want to specify what it is you autowin against that's "relying on interaction" while you're at it.

Meanwhile, do I actually need to explain how traps is different from mill? And how "filling the deck with" is obviously not the key, but the "AND" part where you don't care what your opponent does but just play your mill or clog cards one after another until his deck runs out or doubles in size, and how that's different from either playing your 5 for 5 into a 2 point tutor, or playing your pit trap into a useless 4p card, or having to play your 6p row punish traps into 2-unit rows with armor, or having to play the serpent into a swarm of 3-4HP units or no units at all? Or having to play the traps in R1 instead of "uninteractive" R3? And on the other side how you have to guess what trap it is and play into it accordingly?

Again, I can't understand how is this not obvious and self-explanatory.

6 traps ? No not with me
It 8 trap don't forget eibhear and iorveth
For me it not a really problème
The probleme is eldain, his dévotion condition is a big joke, transform all the traps any way, people don't need to use artefacts
It should change to transform only the adjacent traps, and dévotion transform them all
Because some players are playing madoc with eldain in the same deck and that it really frustrating

 

[NR4ever]

All no-interactive cards like traps shouldn't exist at all In gwent , or there should be effective way to counter it interactively

 

[NGisCheapDoBetter]

I agree with the idea that there should be some way to interact with the archetype beyond heatwave. Having a single neutral card (or potentially 2 if you count shupe) as the only means of dealing with artifacts is bad. I realize they did this to increase artifact use, but it is just bad. Shackles also used to be an effective counter to the old "ambush" archetype, so maybe bring some flavor of that back.

NG haters: Before you fly off the handle I would NOT advocate making every lock able to do this, but maybe just dimerterium shackles specifically could specify "lock a unit or artifact". Or re-re-re-work dimeterium bomb to serve that purpose (again).

Bottom line, there needs to be some way to deal with artifacts/traps/scenarios again, beyond a single card.

I read a year or 2 ago (time flies!) Someone suggest giving artifacts something similar to armor. Not a bag idea imho; if you're willing to dedicate a couple removal plays to take out the armor the artifact/trap can be removed that way... Just an idea. Not sure exactly what that would look like.

traps are how you handle the ridiculous copy paste NG decks. wouldn't be surprised if most people complaining about the traps use those type of decks and are upset that their cheap decks do in fact have a counter deck

Post automatically merged: Nov 27, 2021

how come everyone's forgetting to mention that in order for the serpent to kill the highest valued card, it is the other player who has to trigger it. If you believe a trap is a serpent card then just don't be a greedy player playing special cards otherwise it's only good for the player who plays it to set off and kill the lowest valued card. And if you have a problem with it killing your first card then start off with your lowest card, it's that simple.

 

[Sensimilius]

traps are how you handle the ridiculous copy paste NG decks. wouldn't be surprised if most people complaining about the traps use those type of decks and are upset that their cheap decks do in fact have a counter deck

Post automatically merged: Nov 27, 2021

how come everyone's forgetting to mention that in order for the serpent to kill the highest valued card, it is the other player who has to trigger it. If you believe a trap is a serpent card then just don't be a greedy player playing special cards otherwise it's only good for the player who plays it to set off and kill the lowest valued card. And if you have a problem with it killing your first card then start off with your lowest card, it's that simple.

So just not play the defender? Instead play weak engines that instantly get answered and then eventually you will have to play the defender anyway so it gets killed by the serpent trap ANYWAY cuz the regular removal cards wipe out engines anyway and you don't need the serpent trap for it.
Also I don't play NG, at all.