Emhyr - The Game Non-Character vs the Book.

[Songborn]

I don't think that Emhyr is the kind of person that kills people over a hissy fit, at least that is not how he described in either the books or the game. He takes a lot of lip from Geralt and doesn't even really go after him if Geralt continouly refuses to bring Ciri. That doesn't mean that I think Emhyr is kind, he is cold and precise and deals with people like one would with a tumor: Cut them out before they do too much damage. I am not sure what harm Letho, a lone witcher, could do either to his person or his reputation.

Book!Emhyr isn't an idiot or a weak leader, if he was he would have just stayed the figure head of the group that put him on the throne in the first place. Instead he became one of the most respected and feared names in the continent's history. Game!Emhyr is a backdrop, little more than a well-executed character in a film noir story, that gives Geralt the impetus to look for Ciri.

 

[CTPhipps]

I don't think that Emhyr would be that bothered about people thinking he killed another king. He surived the scandal of trying to marry his daughter, he might as well survive something that actually helps the NIlfgaardian cause.
In the games he like Radovid are people that are supposedly brillant leaders, but we don't actually see much of either's genius.

I don't think people knew he tried to marry his daughter.

And if he loses the war, he DOESN'T survive his scandals.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

I am not sure what harm Letho, a lone witcher, could do either to his person or his reputation.

The idea is that Letho is good at killing. But that would make Emhyr a very poor judge of character. Letho doesn't kill for no reason, he killed kings because he was offered a deal. A deal no one else can replicate, because if he had bothered to study the North, he would have known that Radovid, even before going batshit insane, would not be able to believably offer a mutant school, when he is surrounded by religious fanatics that hate everything nonhuman.

Besides, how blind can Emhyr be to people actually respecting him and beint at awe of him? He didn't think to cultivate that?

Genghis Khan got shot in the neck with an arrow, and his first instinct is to ask who did it, and then have the guy become one of his best generals. Why? Because leadership.

 

[CTPhipps]

I don't think that Emhyr is the kind of person that kills people over a hissy fit, at least that is not how he described in either the books or the game. He takes a lot of lip from Geralt and doesn't even really go after him if Geralt continouly refuses to bring Ciri. That doesn't mean that I think Emhyr is kind, he is cold and precise and deals with people like one would with a tumor: Cut them out before they do too much damage. I am not sure what harm Letho, a lone witcher, could do either to his person or his reputation.

1. Well, Letho killed King Foltest and another King and comes perilously close to killing a third. Emhyr is in Vizima or at least plans to so it's entirely possible he could do the same

2. The idea that suddenly people stop caring about political assassinations because of a war is silly. It's like if people found out Kennedy had been assassinated by the Vietnamese.

People would go APESHIT.

The idea is that Letho is good at killing. But that would make Emhyr a very poor judge of character. Letho doesn't kill for no reason, he killed kings because he was offered a deal. A deal no one else can replicate, because if he had bothered to study the North, he would have known that Radovid, even before going batshit insane, would not be able to believably offer a mutant school, when he is surrounded by religious fanatics that hate everything nonhuman.

The Eternal Fire exists at Radovid's sufferance as it's nothing more than a local cult he's making powerful and infamous.

Besides, the Order of the Flaming Rose can and does accept Witchers as members because Aldersberg was paving the way for his mutants to be respected members of the group.

The Eternal Fire only turns on Witchers under Radovid's patronage. It's a corrupt mouthpiece for Radovid's views.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

And if he loses the war, he DOESN'T survive his scandals.

The regicide had nothing to do with it, it's the internal Nilfgaardian opposition that always hated him and they couldn't care less if he ordered kings murdered or not. They don't seem to mind the idea of regicides anyhow.

 

[Songborn]

But in the books EVERYBODY knew that the emperor wanted to marry Ciri, princess of Cintra. Now everybody knows that Ciri is his daughter. I don't think that would fly.

Well the way the ending is worded his assassination was more about him getting on people's nerves with demanding ultimate obedience and then not being able to deliver victories (the defeats are even called embarassing).

What i meant was: Letho had no reason to kill Emhyr before Emhyr decided to screw him over so the emperor had no reason to fear him. Why piss somebody off that could kill you if you have no reason?

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

2. The idea that suddenly people stop caring about political assassinations because of a war is silly. It's like if people found out Kennedy had been assassinated by the Vietnamese.

People would go APESHIT.

What?

No, the equivalent scenario would be the US assassinating Ho Chi Minh, and then invading Vietnam. You think the Vietnamese are going to hate and fight the US significantly harder whether they found out or not? Not to mention the fact that they would probably suspect it anyways, because the US took *instant* advantage of it?

---------- Updated at 05:50 PM ----------

The Eternal Fire exists at Radovid's sufferance as it's nothing more than a local cult he's making powerful and infamous.

Besides, the Order of the Flaming Rose can and does accept Witchers as members because Aldersberg was paving the way for his mutants to be respected members of the group.

The Eternal Fire only turns on Witchers under Radovid's patronage. It's a corrupt mouthpiece for Radovid's views.

Jacques de Aldersberg is dead. The Order has changed dramatically by TW2. The Cult of Eternal Fire became important to Radovid in TW2, and even in TW1 (he says the chaplains are giving him trouble even back then. Absorbing the Order appeased them).

Emhyr could not have possibly thought that Letho was so stupid that he would have believed that Radovid would have offered him a mutant school.

Not to mention that Letho seemed convinced that the North is finished, a "whorehouse on fire." Why would he trade Nilfgaard for the North? If Emhyr played his cards right, Letho would have been a powerful and loyal follower. But Emhyr is a poor, weak, idiotic leader.

 

[CTPhipps]

But in the books EVERYBODY knew that the emperor wanted to marry Ciri, princess of Cintra. Now everybody knows that Ciri is his daughter. I don't think that would fly.

They also know he married a fake. In that respect, the lesser crime may actually protect him.

 

[vivaxardas2015]

I am not sure what harm Letho, a lone witcher, could do either to his person or his reputation.

Well, it is an ordinary practice in all times to eliminate hired assassins. People tend to talk, and it wouldn't be good if Nilfgaardian involvement in assassinations became a common knowledge. We know about it, but for the people in Witcher's universe it were just guesses. Politically the assassinations, and its massive consequences (witch-hunts) would harm Nilfgaard even when Nilfgaard conquers the North. I don't know what I would have done, but I would have eliminating Letho as a viable option.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Well, it is an ordinary practice in all times to eliminate hired assassins. People tend to talk, and it wouldn't be good if Nilfgaardian involvement in assassinations became a common knowledge. We know about it, but for the people in Witcher's universe it were just guesses. Politically the assassinations, and its massive consequences (witch-hunts) would harm Nilfgaard even when Nilfgaard conquers the North. I don't know what I would have done, but I would have eliminating Letho as a viable option.

We don't really have historical evidence to point at eliminating hired assassins being common practice, especially since hired assassins tended to work in guilds and not individually. Betraying a guild was not a good idea, and they wouldn't betray a patron either. I know the mameluks, after absorbing the Nizaris, used them for assassinations often without any evidence that they killed the assassin after. We have no evidence of shinobi being killed after their work either, that would have been bad business for everyone involved. And the assassins knew that keeping their mouth shut was good for business.

And besides, Letho is not an assassin for hire, out to get money. Letho is assassinating because he wants a future in the South, the only place where he thinks it's viable. Emhyr is the only one who can offer him that. Not to mention that he respects Emhyr and thinks the kings of the North are small compared to him. Is Emhyr that blind that he can't see it? That he can't see that this can be used to make Letho loyal to him?

I am unconvinced that the assassinations being exposed would harm Nilfgaard in any way. They would, if there was no invasion, where they could become a lot more susceptible to political and diplomatic scandal. But with the invasion, them killing kings or not takes a backseat and people will be more worried about surviving the onslaught, famine, and losing their homes, than who killed the kings. Not to mention that the invasion being instantly after the assassinations makes it pretty obvious who is behind it. Not to mention also that the people who know about it, like Roche, Thaler, and even Philippa who knows that Emhyr was the architect behind the suffering of mages, were all to willing to make a deal with him.

So it really doesn't matter.

And people don't stop pogroms and genocides just like that. Once it starts, there is no stopping it. It doesn't matter what the truth is, when the people have always harbored hatred towards mages that is now inflamed by religion.

 

[CTPhipps]

Well, I disagree Knight of Phoenix but I don't strongly disagree.

I think Emhyr's lack of honorable behavior with his allies is something which would harm him and Nilfgaard in the long run whether it's the Scoia'tael or the Witchers of the Viper School or Ciri.

I think his short-term gains from betrayal never benefit him as much as would honoring his agreements.

So it's hard to argue why he would do it, though I totally think it's in character for him to do so.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

So it's hard to argue why he would do it, though I totally think it's in character for him to do so.

I don't know about his character, as I haven't read the books.

But what I would have hoped, is that he isn't that lackluster.

To me, that one incident with Letho isn't a make or break in and of itself. I am frustrated at it within the general context: that Emhyr is a passive and useless imbecile, with little to no character. If he had done something praiseworthy in the game and / or have had a character that would explain such behavior (like paranoia), then I wouldn't have minded him not acting intelligently all the time.

After all, I think Radovid acted poorly and foolishly in Loc Muinne, but it was understandable given his character, and on top of that, he also acted competently and intelligently in other matters. So you had someone who was both interesting and nuanced.

Emhyr is just....useless and boring.

 

[CostinRaz]

Every rational and logical argument in favor of Emhyr killing Letho gets thrown out the fucking window when you consider who Emhyr is.

Emhyr is a man who always keeps his word, he even says as much when you bring him Ciri to him...and yet Letho is ignored?

Rational arguments are irrelevant, CDPR just didn't give a shit about properly handling Emhyr, Nilfgaard let alone Letho.

Emhyr is just....useless and boring.

There's that. He invades the North and conquers half of it but he ultimately losses the war because...logistical issues and Radovid's supposed tactical genius? It's nonsensical.

Also instead of making a deal with JUST Roche to give Temeria back he goes for everything with Dijkstra, a full truce etc. It doesn't make any damned sense.

Then he invades Skellige, or supposedly invades since his fleet is at Undvik which is abandoned, while he is losing the continental war...because reasons.

On top of that, instead of convincing Geralt to bring him Ciri with a good sound argument, the same type he used in the book, he tries ordering Geralt around and offering him 4000 crowns, apparently having forgotten that when it comes to Ciri Geralt doesn't give an iota of a shit about gold, something Emhyr mentions himself.

Who the fuck is this imbecile and what has he done with Emhyr? Is he a doppler like Dijkstra in Reasons of State.

 

[vivaxardas2015]

I think his short-term gains from betrayal never benefit him as much as would honoring his agreements.

Every rational and logical argument in favor of Emhyr killing Letho gets thrown out the fucking window when you consider who Emhyr is.

Emhyr is a man who always keeps his word, he even says as much when you bring him Ciri to him...and yet Letho is ignored?

Rational arguments are irrelevant, CDPR just didn't give a shit about properly handling Emhyr, Nilfgaard let alone Letho.

Actually, Letho's survival and re-creation of the school of the viper are rather independent things. From the beginning Letho's death was a live possibility, and two of his comrades did die. So it is quite possible to honor an agreement, and to eliminate Letho. A school of the viper is useful in itself, so I don't see any reason for Emhyr not to re-open it.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Actually, Letho's survival and re-creation of the school of the viper are rather independent things. From the beginning Letho's death was a live possibility, and two of his comrades did die. So it is quite possible to honor an agreement, and to eliminate Letho. A school of the viper is useful in itself, so I don't see any reason for Emhyr not to re-open it.

And who is going to teach mutants in the way of the viper? Does Emhyr know how to make Witchers now? Does he know people who can train Witchers?

And you would think that if Emhyr had half a brain, he would determine that Letho knowing the Wild Hunt and having experience with them would be pretty useful to help him get Ciri.

But NOPE, let's make Emhyr into a moron.

 

[CostinRaz]

So it is quite possible to honor an agreement, and to eliminate Letho. A school of the viper is useful in itself, so I don't see any reason for Emhyr not to re-open it.

Which would have gone a very long way IF Emhyr had ever mentioned Letho and talked about the mission there. He never does.

Say what you will about the Scoia'Tael, but Dol Blathana was created.

And you would think that if Emhyr had half a brain, he would determine that Letho knowing the Wild Hunt and having experience with them would be pretty useful to help him get Ciri.

You may tell Geralt that as well, as well as everyone at Kaer Morhen.

Letho is the only fucking guy who has ever faced Eredin and his riders in full scale battle and remembers every detail, YET noone gives a fuck to ask him about what tactics to use against them? Really? Also Letho never ventures to provide this information, becoming a one liner machine.

Then again Kaer Morhen is in many ways as moronic as the Suicide Mission in ME2, except considerably worse in terms of cinematics, gameplay, squadmate composition. It does not fucking matter one tiny bit if you don't bring anyone to help you at Kaer Morhen, the outcome and battle will be the exact same.

 

[vivaxardas2015]

Say what you will about the Scoia'Tael, but Dol Blathana was created.

Well, exactly. Emhyr turned the elven commanders over to the Northmen to be executed, but he made it one of his conditions the survival of Dol Blathana as an independent state only formally a vassal to Aedirn. So even though the elves who fought for him, died, he did honor their agreement. What Iorveth thinks about Dol Blathana is irrelevant here. His beef with Francesca Findabair who turned Dol Blathana into a state it was, and did not allow scoia'tael to settle there.

I don't see why it can be the same with the school of the viper. Nobody knows how to do witchers anyway, but two surviving ones whom Letho mentions, may be enough to keep the tradition alive.

CDPR are guilty of omission here, not a complete breaking of a character. We simply need more dialogues and exposition about these matters.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

It is my understanding that Emhyr turned on the Scoia'Tael because the North demanded it for the peace treaty.
If Emhyr decided to do so without it being necessary then HAHAHA what a moron.

Anyways, the crux of my frustration lies within the metagame. All of this being poorly executed is just indicative that the devs didn't want to put effort in even ONE choice carrying over from TW2. They didn't want to integrate Letho into the main story, where his presence would have made sense. They didn't want to even integrate Letho into the political side show, where it would have also made sense.

Instead, they opted to go for one side quest to make us shut our mouths and be happy with what we get. Hence why it became necessary for Emhyr to decide to kill Letho, in order to disassociate him from the main story and plot as well as the political side show.

People can say what they want about Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age Inquisition, but it shat on TW3 when it came to imports and respecting, or at least pretending to respect, players' choices (Loghain's appearance, from TWO games earlier, is superior to Letho's in every way).

 

[CTPhipps]

I don't believe for a second it would have been good storytelling to have Letho working against Radovid and would have been grossly out of character for Letho. I also expected Emhyr to betray Letho to be honest. I think it works very well and adds to the main story considerably to have Emhyr have betrayed Letho. It certainly influenced my decision to not turn over Ciri.

Disagreeing with the interpretation is not the same as bad writing.

As for the Scoia'tael, while it was part of the Peace Treaty, Emhyr made it clear that they weren't allowed to stop fighting either.

‘Emhyr Deithwen gave us Dol Blathanna as a gift. What do you expect from me, Filavandrel? Am I to demand more? Do not forget that even in receiving gifts there should be moderation. Particularly when it concerns gifts from Emhyr, because he gives nothing for nothing. We must keep the lands he gave us. And the powers at our disposal are barely sufficient to retain Dol Blathanna.’

‘Let us then withdraw our commandos from Temeria, Redania and Kaedwen,’ suggested the white-haired elf. ‘Let us withdraw all Scoia’tael forces who are fighting the humans. You are now queen, Enid, and they will obey your orders. Now that we have our own small scrap of land, there is no sense in their continuing to fight. Their duty is to return and defend the Valley of the Flowers. Let them fight as a free people in defence of their own borders. Right now they are falling like bandits in the forests!’

The elf bowed her head. ‘Emhyr has not permitted that,’ she whispered. ‘The commandos are to fight on.’

‘Why? To what end?’ said Filavandrel aep Fidhail,sitting up abruptly.

‘I will say more. We are not to support nor to help the Scoia’tael. This was the condition set by Foltest and Henselt. Temeria and Kaedwen will respect our rule in Dol Blathanna, but only if we officially condemn the Squirrels’ aggression and distance ourselves from them.’ ‘

Those children are dying, Daisy. They are dying every day, perishing in an unequal contest. As a direct result of these secret pacts with Emhyr, humans will attack the commandos and crush them. They are our children, our future! Our blood! And you tell me we should dissociate ourselves from them? Que’ss aen me dicette, Enid? Vorsaeke’llan? Aen vaine?’

The elf bowed her head. ‘Emhyr has not permitted that,’ she whispered. ‘The commandos are to fight on.’

‘The commandos,’ she repeated softly, ‘must continue to fight. They must disrupt the human kingdoms and hinder their preparations for war. That is the order of Emhyr and I may not oppose Emhyr. Forgive me, Filavandrel.’

Filavandrel aep Fidhail looked at her and bowed low. ‘I forgive you, Enid. But I do not know if they will.’

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Disagreeing with the interpretation is not the same as bad writing.
[/I]

But hyping Emhyr to be the some great threat, only to make him completely useless and stupid at everything he does, and yet still expecting us to be somehow in awe of him because he is voiced by Charles Dance, is however. That, and perhaps the biggest sin: him having no character.

Henselt and Radovid in TW2, in a few short concise scenes with excellently written dialogue, had actual personalities and characters be shown. Heck, Kimbolt and Maravel had more personality and character than Emhyr.

As for the elves. Yes that my my understanding. Emhyr betrayed the Scoia'Tael leaders because he couldn't have made peace otherwise, while still hoping that the Scoia'Tael would still wreck havoc in the North until the next invasion. It's hard to argue against that policy when there was a lot of pressure on him to do it.