Emulating the rules, but which system?

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Emulating the rules, but which system?

One of the best things about the Cyberpunk tabletop game was its rules system.

When the original Cyberpunk (2013) was released, it used a system called Interlock, though in its infancy, continuing the mechanic originally set for in R.Talsorians first game, Teenagers From Outer Space. This first iteration of Interlock was crude but simple.

When Cyberpunk 2020 was released, it featured a new version of Interlock. More thought out, better researched, it was nearly perfect. This was the beloved system that kept the game going. It was one of the very first skill based systems, and its lack of escalating hit points and its specific hit locations as standard, with resultant effects, method of resolving damage set it worlds apart from other games where level based hit point progression was the standard, and you could go on fighting till you ran out with lack of any discernible effect. At this point Interlock was already being shared with R.Talsorians other lines, Mekton and Castle Falkenstien. Unfortunately even Interlock, as close to perfection as it was, still had some problems. The Role system was too rigidly enforced, and it was mechanically abstract. The netrunning rules were confusing and bore no resemblance to real world computing. Some of the skills were either redundant or poorly defined. And the combat mechanics were excellent, but lacked fluidity. In short, the rules desperately needed updating.

In effort to appease the fans, as well as form an alliance with Hero Games, Fuzion was developed, which was 90% Interlock and ten percent Hero. The first official product to come out using Fuzion was Bublegum Crisis, and it's OGL spawned massive online support. Fuzion was the rules system used in Cyberpunk V3, and while some people liked it, it pretty much ignored the major Flaws of Interlock, either throwing out the problems entirely, such as Roles and netrunning, or just glossing over them. In addition, it made all attack actions opposed rolls, instead of situation difficulty. Which in effect meant in combat you could dodge bullets. Overall Fuzion was rejected, almost as much as V3 was by Cyberpunk Fanbase.

And then came Interlock Unlimited. A few years ago, on the Cyberpunk 2020 forum Views From The Edge, I began working on a re-write of the Interlock system with the help of collaborators there. Interlock was examined from every angle, house rules from all over were looked at, and the combined experience of over 60 years of playing cyberpunk (including that f long timer R.Talsorian writer Ross Wynn) was consulted. The final product, was Interlock Unlimited. The Roles and their special abilities were fixed, removing the abstract qualities and giving them all defined parameters, and a simple mechanic allowing for a character to take as many Roles as they qualify for. The skill list was retooled to avoid redundancy and cover gaps. The combat mechanics were streamlined, and new optional rules were implemented. Netrunning was simplified, and operates off the same mechanic everything else does, making the whole game very intuitive. Broken rules were repaired, new rules were added, and the whole thing was streamlined. Fan response to Interlock Unlimited has been tremendous, it operates with the full blessing of Mike Pondsmith himself, and judging from the e-mail I get and the number of people I see suggesting it on forums, R.Tal would do worse if they officially adopted it.

Of course there are other versions of the rules out there. R. Tal published too sourcebooks based on novels in the genre. When Gravity Fails by Effigner and Hardwired by Walter John Williams... both of these used slightly altered versions of Interlock. There are also numerous other rules variations created by fans.

The question is this... which rules version do you think would best serve Cyberpunk 2077... both the video game and the upcoming PNP products?

Which set of rules do you believe best represent the freedom, hard core combat with consequences, and dynamic fluidity of the Cyberpunk world, and its visions?
 
While never having experienced Interlock Unlimited myself, going by all the reviews I have read so far, that sounds like the way to go. If even Mike Pondsmith has given it his blessing, it sounds even like the most likely and most logical thing, for both, the video game and the new pen&dice.
 
I have no idea what this is all about, but sure does look like a lot!



Lol, well, as you know, the Cyberpunk 2077 video game is based on a tabletop role playing game called Cyberpunk 2020.... but the game has had a few variotions in rules sets... this is a poll to determine which rules set should be emulated for the video game.
 
It might be because I have done so much work in Fuzion and Interlock 2020, but I'll always be partial to those. I like my systems lean and trimmed down, and the basic Interlock 2020 ruleset, or the V3 Fuzion ruleset, work just fine on that for me.

Heck, if I were going to rewrite that Mekton thing I did back in 2001, I'd probably give it a ruleset similar to what ended up becoming V3.
 
Interlock Unlimited is my favorite tabletop system.

Thanks man... that means a lot.

It might be because I have done so much work in Fuzion and Interlock 2020, but I'll always be partial to those. I like my systems lean and trimmed down, and the basic Interlock 2020 ruleset, or the V3 Fuzion ruleset, work just fine on that for me.

Heck, if I were going to rewrite that Mekton thing I did back in 2001, I'd probably give it a ruleset similar to what ended up becoming V3.

I never really cared for Fuzion... it just never addressed the issues I had with Cyberpunk 2020's Interlock... and I really didn't care for the idea of opposed rolls in gunfights...

IU isn't everyones cup of tea, but I am glad of the following its gotten...
 
I really didn't care for the idea of opposed rolls in gunfights...
...ugh.

As someone that's been a shooting hobbyist for 30+ years, the idea of opposed rolls for a gunfight is absurd to me. When trying to hit what you're aiming at, you're fighting against adrenal dump, target cover / armor, and your own mastery of the weapon you're using. There's not really anything that the other person can do to "oppose" your aim (besides taking cover, of course.)

For hand-to-hand / fisticuffs? Sure; it's your talent for not getting hit / counterstriking, versus the other person's skill in being able to hit you. For a gunfight? Doesn't make sense, imo.

As to the poll above, the only informed opinion I have is on the 2020 ruleset. I got in at 2020, and haven't had opportunity to use any of the other listed systems. Lacking a well-informed opinion, I have to cast a null vote.
 
Redge, you're another shooter? Nice. I almost like you now, despite your intermittent failure to observe my greatnesses. And that thing you did with your duodenum. Shudder. We mus talk shooting sometime - in antoher thread maybe. Not that I've been to the range in dog's age -cursed Life.

Opposed rolls in gunfights is as stupid as dodge rolls in gunfights. And so unecessary, too - hitting something should be hard enough under pressure. Some people do prefer a dice system that is more hit/block or hit/ding as opposed to shoot/miss, ( a "whiff!" system), but I've always found it preposterous.

I was thinking of the difference in melee vs ranged just today. IN ranged, you're really fighting yourself and nature to achieve yoru goal. In melee, although that might still be true, you are also trying to exploit your opponents errors. Much more so than in shooting - or at least much more subtly than in shooting.
 
Redge, you're another shooter? Nice.
Yessir; grew up reading articles by Massad Ayoob and Jerry Ahearn since I were a wee lad. Pops started taking me to the range when I was six.

I was thinking of the difference in melee vs ranged just today. IN ranged, you're really fighting yourself and nature to achieve yoru goal.
Agreed. I don't think a person doing cartwheels or Capoeira presents any more difficult of a target than someone SHOOTING BACK AT YOU. I'd go so far as to argue that, even cyber-enhanced, if they're not actively trying to bust caps in your dome, they're less of a threat, and there's less stressors affecting your aim.
 
Yep. Not that I've been under fire, although I've had guns on me a few times and it's an..invigorating experience.

One of my favourite aphorisms is that it takes years of practice before the shooter is anywhere close to as accurate as his weapon.

Massad Ayoob..that takes me back. It was Elmer Keith that got me interested in the idea of hand-gun shooting. Such skill with such a ridiculously silly weapon. Amazing.

I'd like to hope that CDPR tries to emulate a system, but I've noticed developers tend to reinvent the wheel when they transfer to their medium. It always reminded me of the similar argument about movies and books. An argument that, although not without merit, Harry Potter, LotR and Twilight have emphatically demonstrated the author knew best.

In other words, I'd like to see them stick as close as possible to Interlock, with some of the sweeter options from Unlimited like Roles and martial arts damage rules added in.
 
As much as people knock Bethesda around here (not entirely unfairly...), I think that they got shooting mechanics between your skill and V.A.T.S. pretty good.

Each point in your weapon skill converting to a percentage to hit, given a certain range for the weapon at hand. I think this, coupled with a particular weapon's inherent accuracy, would be a good model to adopt.
 
Wee-elll...here's how the PnP system works, in percentages, roughly:

Your stats, skills and the die all range from 1-10.

Presuming an Average difficulty: 15. Average human stat : 5. Average, (competent) in human skill: 5. And of course, 5 on a D10 is a roughly 50% chance.

So, if you have Joe Average of Average competency trying to complete an Average task, (like hit a stationary target at a weapon's Close range), he will do it about half the time on his first try.

However. This is before gear modifiers, like weapon accuracy and toolset bonus. And before environmental modifiers, like being wounded or half-blind



This word, "average" doesn't mean much, either. Cp2020 uses it relative to Easy or Difficult, as a benchmark for GMs to pick a difficulty for a task. "Average" in this context denotes not its mathematical value, but instead a game specific value indicating some training required. You are expected, as Joe Average, to be able to complete the task within your first two tries or so.

So that is your starting point for percentages, if you want to use the PnP method, and it's a good one.

50% chance of success for a person with a stat of 5 out of 10 and skill of 5 out of a 10 possible points. Before cyber, gear or environmental mods, positive and negative.

And from there you modify as skills and stats change the base values, and modifiers change them again. Not too complicated.


And that's all fine when it comes to picking locks or persuading people or sneaking around in the dark. It tends to come a-cropper somewhat when player skill at wiggling mousey or tapping keysey is included.
 
Agreed. I don't think a person doing cartwheels or Capoeira presents any more difficult of a target than someone SHOOTING BACK AT YOU. I'd go so far as to argue that, even cyber-enhanced, if they're not actively trying to bust caps in your dome, they're less of a threat, and there's less stressors affecting your aim.

Amen

In other words, I'd like to see them stick as close as possible to Interlock, with some of the sweeter options from Unlimited like Roles and martial arts damage rules added in.

I could live with that... since, IU pretty much just is a slightly modified and tweaked Interlock... and the Roles and Martial arts contain most of the biggest changes, the IU changes to Roles are really the most important bit...

As much as people knock Bethesda around here (not entirely unfairly...), I think that they got shooting mechanics between your skill and V.A.T.S. pretty good.

Each point in your weapon skill converting to a percentage to hit, given a certain range for the weapon at hand. I think this, coupled with a particular weapon's inherent accuracy, would be a good model to adopt.

The Fallout 3 and NV shooting was great... and it was the perfect compromise for the handicapped people who don't like twitch based shooting It was also good in that it had discernible effects. Shooting someone in the legs made them limp,... although obviously for Cyberpunk that should be taken further... and even blowing a limb off someone should not mean instant death for them. But it was all balanced by the fact that you COULD switch to manual, and just blow hell out of something. And manual, as it should be, was more accurate., though bullet spread was still a factor.

I dug in RDR when I would shoot someone, they wouldn't instantly die, even if they were dying... they would roll around, get up and stagger off... you could shoot them in the head, but there was no need. If you shot them in the legs, they would limp along, no longer able to run... and if you shot them in the arm they would drop their gun. It was really really well done... You could also shoot their hats off their heads, which was just fun.

Wee-elll...here's how the PnP system works, in percentages, roughly:

Your stats, skills and the die all range from 1-10.

Presuming an Average difficulty: 15. Average human stat : 5. Average, (competent) in human skill: 5. And of course, 5 on a D10 is a roughly 50% chance.

So, if you have Joe Average of Average competency trying to complete an Average task, (like hit a stationary target at a weapon's Close range), he will do it about half the time on his first try.

However. This is before gear modifiers, like weapon accuracy and toolset bonus. And before environmental modifiers, like being wounded or half-blind

Well.... kinda... skill competency is around 3-4... equivalent to a high school education or training in the subject. But Stat averages are more 5-6.

A 5 in a skill is actually considered well trained.

This word, "average" doesn't mean much, either. Cp2020 uses it relative to Easy or Difficult, as a benchmark for GMs to pick a difficulty for a task. "Average" in this context denotes not its mathematical value, but instead a game specific value indicating some training required. You are expected, as Joe Average, to be able to complete the task within your first two tries or so.

So that is your starting point for percentages, if you want to use the PnP method, and it's a good one.

50% chance of success for a person with a stat of 5 out of 10 and skill of 5 out of a 10 possible points. Before cyber, gear or environmental mods, positive and negative.

Agreed, it emulates things exceedingly well, especially in tense situations.

There are some areas where there is a disconnect... But really only outside of combat. Given lack of stress and sufficient time, I let characters take "10" as it were when applying skills. A master Techie may be able to jury rig a fan belt or unjam a gun in the middle of a fight, but even a guy who has an abysmal tech stat, but is fairly competant skill wise, can fix the fan belt or repair the weapon under normal conditions if they just take their time at it. But thats getting off point, and not really applicable to the video game...

In combat, or in a video game context... the spread of percentages actually works out quite nicely, and will keep the game challenging for a good long time. Especially if the gun skills reflect bullet spread in manual firing mode... so with a 1 in the skill, or a really shitty reflex, you are missing even when you have the target dead on in your crosshairs... it translates to your character flinching, pulling instead of squeezing the trigger, closing his eyes at the muzzle flash, improper breathing, etc... In a VATS situation, it all is equivalent to rolling a die...

And from there you modify as skills and stats change the base values, and modifiers change them again. Not too complicated.
yup

And that's all fine when it comes to picking locks or persuading people or sneaking around in the dark. It tends to come a-cropper somewhat when player skill at wiggling mousey or tapping keysey is included.

They can buy a controller. Really, who the hell plays video games, even on the pc, without a controller these days anyway?
 
Really, who the hell plays video games, even on the pc, without a controller these days anyway?
You'd be surprised. Lot of the people that PC game on the tournament circuit still use keyboard / mouse.

Though, they're usually ultra-fancy, gazilion hotkey, mouse-like peripherals.
 
Nothing better than the mouse/keyboard combo.

If thats what you dig, then thats cool... but I hear a lot of people complaining about manual shooting, or "twitch combat" as the like to call it... which to me is a must have...
 
I'd say 5 in a skill is pretty average competent. It's the end of the starting range for payroll and it's where most "competent" NPCs in my games reside. Same for stats. YMMV.

I don't use a controller, as it happens, because I don't steer or shoot with my thumbs. Thta's not what I meant, though, by a-cropper, so I shall now EXPLAIN.

It gets complicated because as soon as you add in the player's manual skills, wheither with mouse or controller, it throws your percentages and success ratios off. And then you have to throw in tricks like crosshair size or weapon responsiveness or what have you. No matter what you do, though, it struggles with the basic gap between the character's skills and the players.

And that's a challenge.
 
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