Of course it could be argued that by surrendering his witcher school to the emperor Letho has just given up all the secrets of the witchers to a man who will no doubt be very interested in how to go about making superhumans, in essence Jacque D'Aldersburgs plans from the witcher 1 could come to fruition through Letho's actions as I sincerely doubt the restoration of the viper school will come without strings.
That's the reasoning I used on my first runthrough where I slew Letho for violating witcher neutrality to an excessive degree, it's not my canon however as I spared Berengar and cannot in good conscience do any less for another fellow witcher.
That's the reasoning I used on my first runthrough where I slew Letho for violating witcher neutrality to an excessive degree, it's not my canon however as I spared Berengar and cannot in good conscience do any less for another fellow witcher.
Do we know that Letho has given up the Witchers' Secrets? I don't recall that in the final dialogue.
The Witchers' schoold are in kingdoms, so they must always have come to some kind of accommodation with the ruler of that kingdom. Maybe things were different when they were founded (I haven't read the books), but I don't see any of the rulers in the 13th century being too keen on allowing a fully-autonomous fighting force exist in their realm.
So there are almost certainly some strings attached to Kaer Morhen in Kaedwen, and to the Order of the Flaming Rose in Redania, and there'll be strings attached to the Viper School in Nilfgaard, if the Emperor keeps his word. This doesn't necessarily mean that the deal will include the Witchers' Secrets.
The Witchers' schoold are in kingdoms, so they must always have come to some kind of accommodation with the ruler of that kingdom. Maybe things were different when they were founded (I haven't read the books), but I don't see any of the rulers in the 13th century being too keen on allowing a fully-autonomous fighting force exist in their realm.
So there are almost certainly some strings attached to Kaer Morhen in Kaedwen, and to the Order of the Flaming Rose in Redania, and there'll be strings attached to the Viper School in Nilfgaard, if the Emperor keeps his word. This doesn't necessarily mean that the deal will include the Witchers' Secrets.
Come on, Emhyr is going to found a new school for the vipers and not interfere at all in their order? That sounds utterly naive for a cunning and ruthless powermonger. Kaer Morhen was for a long time hidden and the witchers are mostly forgotten antiques of a past age but with what Letho has proven capable of and the emperors acquanintance with Geralt himself I can't see him saying oh i'll honour our deal and not pay any attention to you any more.
In giving up their neutrality Letho has most likely tied himself to an imperial leash whether he likes it or not (and he does seem fine with that, he even seems to admire the white flame), the vipers have become tools and the wise ruler does not throw away useful tools.
In giving up their neutrality Letho has most likely tied himself to an imperial leash whether he likes it or not (and he does seem fine with that, he even seems to admire the white flame), the vipers have become tools and the wise ruler does not throw away useful tools.
Tools and interference? Yes, definitely.
Giving up the Witchers' Secrets? No, I don't think there's anything to indicate that Letho would go that far. He's already gone against the Emperor's wishes by rescuing Triss, so I think that, like Geralt, he only obeys the monarchs when it suits his own purposes.
Giving up the Witchers' Secrets? No, I don't think there's anything to indicate that Letho would go that far. He's already gone against the Emperor's wishes by rescuing Triss, so I think that, like Geralt, he only obeys the monarchs when it suits his own purposes.
I don't think Emhyr gave tow figs about Triss, he'd achieved his objective of destroying the lodge and weakening the north so Geralts bit of skirt wasn't important anymore. I don't think letho will have much of a say in the matter of giving up the witchers secrets as his school and students will only exist thanks to Emhyrs sufferance and who exactly will be providing the alchemy and magic required to create new witchers but the emperors approved mages who he wisely rules with a rod of iron.
Honestly i can see the vipers becoming an extremely effective secret police/assassins that enforce Emhyrs will from the shadows and i'm not at all sure that Letho would be against that. If the emperor didn't try this i'd be somewhat disappointed in him, as i've come to expect intelligence and reasonable ambition from the characters in the witcher games. Which is a refreshing change.
Honestly i can see the vipers becoming an extremely effective secret police/assassins that enforce Emhyrs will from the shadows and i'm not at all sure that Letho would be against that. If the emperor didn't try this i'd be somewhat disappointed in him, as i've come to expect intelligence and reasonable ambition from the characters in the witcher games. Which is a refreshing change.
Triss is not just Geralt's bit of skirt, though. She is no slouch as a war sorceress; she was one of the mages who helped rout the Nilfgaardians at Sodden Hill. I do not think Emhyr will take her escape in stride (though either Geralt or Letho has already dealt sufficient punishment to the fools who failed to prevent it).Blothulfur said:
Otherwise, I agree: Emhyr's relationship to the Viper school is one of "he who pays the piper calls the tune", and even if the surviving Vipers would rather tell Emhyr to stuff his orders where the sun never shines, he can compel their obedience, at least in some matters and for a time.
@Biothulfur
I also largely agree with what you've said, except that the importance of the Triss rescue isn't the Emperor's likely response, it's the mere fact that Letho disobeyed the Emperor's order. He may idolise the Emperor, but he isn't going to follow instructions blindly.
The counter-argument to your second paragraph is that there are still Viper witchers in Nilfgaard. The Emperor could do all of this anyway. If Letho was the strongest of them, and not a blind follower, who will stand up to The Emperor if you kill Letho?
Only time will tell. Maybe Geralt will be the one...
I also largely agree with what you've said, except that the importance of the Triss rescue isn't the Emperor's likely response, it's the mere fact that Letho disobeyed the Emperor's order. He may idolise the Emperor, but he isn't going to follow instructions blindly.
The counter-argument to your second paragraph is that there are still Viper witchers in Nilfgaard. The Emperor could do all of this anyway. If Letho was the strongest of them, and not a blind follower, who will stand up to The Emperor if you kill Letho?
Only time will tell. Maybe Geralt will be the one...
I agree that Emhyr is most likely going to use the Witchers, and isn't helping them out of the kindness of his heart. Which I don't think is necessarily bad and I am 99% certain that Letho realizes this and doesn't mind.
The Witchers need to adapt to the new order. Their antiquated mentality is in large part a reason why they are virtually extinct.
The Witchers need to adapt to the new order. Their antiquated mentality is in large part a reason why they are virtually extinct.
I have to agree with this.KnightofPhoenix said:
I remember a conversation between Geralt and Zoltan in the first game, I think it was during Chapter II - where Geralt goes along the lines "It will be slightly philosophical...". In a nutshell, he explained how once, when the Witchers were first conceived, things were pretty clear-cut. The Evil the Witchers battled against, in the forms of monsters and the like was evident for all to see. Nowadays however, it has changed, adapted. It hides behind faith, ideals, treaties, the law. Wait...
Here it is, I managed to dig it up. I think the Master Witcher will explain it better than I can.
Going from this, it is obvious that the world is moving, progressing in some direction. Whether it is morally right or wrong is of no importance, that is progress - it only moves forward. Witchers need to move as well, they need to adapt to this new battlefield or they will be cast aside as antiques of the past. The time of living secluded in their fortresses, travelling from village to village and slaying their monsters - as they were meant to - is over. I mean, just look at the two games even - what harm have monsters, in the traditional sense of the word, done? It seems to me that they are pests, in the grand scheme of things. The true monsters, the real evil is us. The so-called sentient beings who slaughter each other at every given turn. How is a Witcher supposed to battle that? Certainly not using age-old methods.
And to those saying Letho is the Emperor's lap-dog, it may very well be so. But I'll urge you as I did in my other post, remove your Geralt-tinted glasses and look at the big picture again. What was Geralt doing in the beginning of the game, may I ask? Why did he get involved in all this? Oh that's right, he was helping another conquest-hungry tyrant in his quest. Let's not lie to ourselves, Foltest is just as bad as Henselt and the rest of them. By getting involved in this purely political struggle, I think Geralt forsook his own neutrality as well. Whether this was forced on him is besides the point, I should think - just as it happened to Letho.
See, that's why I think the Witcher is such an amazing game. The sheer philosophical depth opened here clearly surpasses any RPG to have come out on the PC. In fact, the only game I can remember where I didn't have to fight the "bad guy" in the end, the one game which made me question my choices as the Witcher does is the hidden gem Planescape: Torment. These games offer so much, but they are beyond the average player, who just wants to kill a few bastards and loot their stuff. But, ultimately, these are the games that stick with you after the others have long-since faded from your memory.
I'd never say Letho is a lap dog for Emhyr, he's a dangerous viper but through his actions whether rightly or wrongly (and I am erring on the side of right) he has given up the last shreds of witcher neutrality to serve the emperor. Geralt was bound to Foltest through circumstance and the fact that it would take a witcher to protect the king from another witcher and sought release to pursue that matter at the earliest opportunity at least that is one argument for a player who chooses to slay Letho for violating neutrality come the epilogue.
Personally i'd much rather have played Letho than Geralt as I think he's a far more interesting character and i'm hardly looking at the white wolf through rose tinted glasses, but i'm not saying Foltest was a paragon of virtue either as he was born and raised as a medieval monarch which mandates that he becomes the biggest bastard if he wishes to stay alive and conquer. The setting echoes the medieval period with startling parallels and benefits from its morally grey realistic portrayal to those of us sick of dumbed down binary choices of good and evil or stupid and moronic.
Yeah there are few games to have matched the witcher, obsidian seems to be the only developer left who are even trying to craft such deep immersive worlds, after slogging through the repetitive lifeless backdrops of dragon age 2 as a lazy incompetent mass murderer Assassins of Kings is a perfect pick me up.
Personally i'd much rather have played Letho than Geralt as I think he's a far more interesting character and i'm hardly looking at the white wolf through rose tinted glasses, but i'm not saying Foltest was a paragon of virtue either as he was born and raised as a medieval monarch which mandates that he becomes the biggest bastard if he wishes to stay alive and conquer. The setting echoes the medieval period with startling parallels and benefits from its morally grey realistic portrayal to those of us sick of dumbed down binary choices of good and evil or stupid and moronic.
Yeah there are few games to have matched the witcher, obsidian seems to be the only developer left who are even trying to craft such deep immersive worlds, after slogging through the repetitive lifeless backdrops of dragon age 2 as a lazy incompetent mass murderer Assassins of Kings is a perfect pick me up.
@ BlackRock
You can even see how something like the Order is supplanting the Witchers, and do their work "for free" (they were most likely funded by Redanian intelligence). Even if commoners didn't think the Witchers were mutant freaks, they are more likely to enlist the aid of an organization like the Order.
The problem with the Order is its religious fanaticism, hence why I'd vastly prefer the Witchers to become an organization such as this, but without all the religious dogma. I think that's what Emhyr and Letho were aiming at. Will their work be limited to monster slaying only? Very unlikely. The Witchers demonstrated that they are superb warriors and assassins. This is not something I see Emhyr not using.
You can even see how something like the Order is supplanting the Witchers, and do their work "for free" (they were most likely funded by Redanian intelligence). Even if commoners didn't think the Witchers were mutant freaks, they are more likely to enlist the aid of an organization like the Order.
The problem with the Order is its religious fanaticism, hence why I'd vastly prefer the Witchers to become an organization such as this, but without all the religious dogma. I think that's what Emhyr and Letho were aiming at. Will their work be limited to monster slaying only? Very unlikely. The Witchers demonstrated that they are superb warriors and assassins. This is not something I see Emhyr not using.
Well in the epilogue I was in a fight (don't wont to spoil it for those planning on replaying it) before meting up with letho, and I let letho live. There is also a scene after the credits.KnightofPhoenix said:
Do you recall the conversation that Geralt has with Zyvik if they meet in the market in Loc Muinne? I don't have the exact details, but Geralt appears to be saying that changes in the world structure are inevitable, and to be looking forward to it.KnightofPhoenix said:
That's one reason why I think that Geralt may have some sympathies with Letho's plans to set up the new Witcher School. Change is coming, and the Witchers need to adapt too. Their impending obsolescence is mentioned so many times in both games.
Everyone comments on the fears that the Emperor will use the Witchers. But the Witchers aren't stupid, they're long-lived, experienced and know their way around the world. They're not just dumb oxen brutes, whatever people like Sile and Dethmold may think.
I think they're just as capable of using the Kings and Emperors as the other way round.
Geralt was kvetching about the same thing to Zoltan in TW1: the evil he was trained to fight has been replaced by lawful, institutionalized evil, and he didn't know what place witchers could have in the new order. So he's known for a while that witchers will have to adapt before they die out, and it crystallizes in that conversation with Zyvik.dragonbird said:
You're right; witchers are definitely not stupid, just a bit old-fashioned. Geralt's experienced enough to know that an army with a witcher is a powerful weapon, but a witcher against an army is a dead witcher. Witchers can't raise armies; only kings and nobles have the power to do that. So he can't work alone in the new world; he and his fellows will have to become skillful at making and using alliances.
Damn, I don't recall talking with Zyvik in Act 3. Sounds very interesting.
If you're on Roche path, he's hanging around near the Ban Ard mage. It's a short but interesting discussion.KnightofPhoenix said:
Actually yes, I kind of remember it. It's been some time, I almost completely forgot about it.dragonbird said:
Need to replay my canon!
Letho was an awesome character, but let's not forget he was truly a villain.
For me, he deserved to die.
Even though his actions were intended to restore his Witcher's School, and that in the past, he'd saved Geralt's life, the suffering and death that he caused outweighed his intentions. I also viewed his character as incredibly selfish. This is a man with no friends, who easily betrays.
On top of that, it was obvious to me that any Witcher's School which was founded with the help of Nilfgaard would end up being a puppet of Nilfgaard used to intimidate and assassinate. Letho didn't live by the same noble Witcher's Code as Geralt and the Wolf school. Any school Letho had a part in founding would be horribly flawed, and further dirty the name of Witchers. Better that they die off than live on as a mirror image of Letho.
For me, he deserved to die.
Even though his actions were intended to restore his Witcher's School, and that in the past, he'd saved Geralt's life, the suffering and death that he caused outweighed his intentions. I also viewed his character as incredibly selfish. This is a man with no friends, who easily betrays.
On top of that, it was obvious to me that any Witcher's School which was founded with the help of Nilfgaard would end up being a puppet of Nilfgaard used to intimidate and assassinate. Letho didn't live by the same noble Witcher's Code as Geralt and the Wolf school. Any school Letho had a part in founding would be horribly flawed, and further dirty the name of Witchers. Better that they die off than live on as a mirror image of Letho.
great insights on the epilogue
As far as I believe (or hope) Letho will never be the dog of the emperor and would have/will turn on him if things don't go the way they should. Recalling what Sile to Geralt regarding him, Letho was a 'big liar and stabber'
I don't completely agree with his actions but Letho was one of the coolest characters in the games so far, and would definitely want him back (for those who 'spared' him)
and coming back to the main topic,
TW2 Epilogue = E.P.I.C.
perfect and truly the best among all the games atleast i've played so far
(the most beautiful intro I personally vote for is of Assassin's Creed 2)
end of story.
As far as I believe (or hope) Letho will never be the dog of the emperor and would have/will turn on him if things don't go the way they should. Recalling what Sile to Geralt regarding him, Letho was a 'big liar and stabber'
I don't completely agree with his actions but Letho was one of the coolest characters in the games so far, and would definitely want him back (for those who 'spared' him)
and coming back to the main topic,
TW2 Epilogue = E.P.I.C.
perfect and truly the best among all the games atleast i've played so far
(the most beautiful intro I personally vote for is of Assassin's Creed 2)
end of story.