Eredin says 12 sentences during the whole game and.....

+
I take it as related but a little bit more.

Evil = Morally bad to the point one needs to be opposed either by imprisonment or violence.
It's still a highly social construct. And it's a bit problematic because in the fantasy of the witcher world there are truly "evil" monsters which just kill for no goo reason at all.

The Bloody Baron is an all-round rotten person but he is reasonable, guilt-ridden, and you can make improvements to his personality simply through talking with him about his problems. Radovid and Whoreson, by contrast, can only be stopped by violence given their positions and cruelty. I agree, however, Whoreson seems to be a largely 2-dimensional character who we discover is a serial killer, I think, just for some "cheap heat" (as they say in Professional Wrestling).

I also think Radovid is less interesting as Kookoo Crazy Pants than if he'd been portrayed as a sincere believer in the Eternal Fire, a man who wants to kill all the nonhumans, mages, and others because he honestly believes it would make the world a better place. You could also have him actively working with the Eternal Fire just to target the neutral mages so all of the survivors must side with him for protection. There's plenty of ways Radovid could have been portrayed as contemptible and monstrous without being Caligula.
I think we can easily agree that out of them three the Bloody Baron is by far the best written and most interesting character...

Really, I can't hate Radovid as much as Emhyr because Radovid is clearly nuts while Emhyr knows EXACTLY what he's doing and stands by it.
But Emhyr let Ciri go (in the books). In the moment of his biggest personal triumph, surrounded by his whole army he showed mercy and, yes, humanity at last. He had achieved his greatest goal but he gives it up because there was still something good in him. And by doing so, he changed destiny. The one from whom you would have expected it the least showed that humanity and free will can still prevail, even in the darkest hours. He proved that even one of the supposedly most evil persons in the world is capable of empathy and humanity. Too bad they presented such a one-dimensional Emhyr in the games...

I hope any expansion on Eredin would be better.

A guy who plans to exterminate non-elves everywhere in the universe and does so because he finds their existence disgusting. Who plans to torture and kill Ciri after he gets what he wants because she's a pollution to his worldview.

A guy who HAS TO GO.able
How do you come to that conclusion? In the books that's only speculation. What we do know is that the Hunt enslaves human beings in smaller numbers from time to time and that they massacred humans in their own world (though we don't know how that happend exactly). That they are racists is absolutely true. But many people in the Witcher world are plain racists as well. Does Geralt kill them all? No, of course no. He doesn't kill just for having a stupid opinion about other races or because somebody plans to do something. Geralt only wants to stop him from hunting down Ciri. HE doesn't hate Eredin on a personal level beyond that if you ask me. If the player does, well that's up on him. We do know way to llttle about Eredin and maybe there is more to it that just plain racial hatred. If I got that right the Aen Elle fear the White Frost as well in th games at least. So stopping the Frost must be at least one of their agendas as well (if not that one speculation is really true that the Hunt is the manifestation of the Frost itself...)

But yeah, of course Eredin needs more context, especially since the Aen Elle and the Hunt differ from how they were shown in the books and most people don't even know the books...

---------- Updated at 02:39 AM ----------

That is the contradiction of socially accept violence as individuals like Geralt tend to use violence against those society perceives as evil whereas the evil tend to think they're doing the same.
Well, in the books Geralt's violence is far from being socially excepted. He is called "The Butcher of Blaviken" for a reason. On the opposite, even in most cases when Geralt tries to defend other people his actions are seen as evil by society. That is also displayed in the game, like in the tavern scene in White Orchard.

I don't mind moral ambiguity: Roche and Dijkstra is a story with no good guy or bad guy. Just two people trying to do the right thing by each other. However, that doesn't mean there can't be more clear cut examples of evil.

They just are part of a mixture of situations.
I don't mind more evil characters neither. I just don't like all evil clichés like Whoreson.

And Eredin is an all evil cliché in the game as well. Without the context of the books we wouldn't even know anything about his racism or possible plans to invade other worlds. TW3 surely doesn't tell us anything about it.
 
It's still a highly social construct. And it's a bit problematic because in the fantasy of the witcher world there are truly "evil" monsters which just kill for no goo reason at all.

Eh, one of the "off" elements of the video game is Geralt is having more success as a Witcher in the past seven years than he's had in the past hundred. As a Witcher he does occasional jobs for people but mostly people are protective of monsters as endangered species and he has roughly as much respect as a poacher. In the Witcher games, monsters are everywhere, a dire threat to the public, and he's routinely saving whole villages.

Which Lambert even lampshades that Geralt's life is not what a "normal" Witcher's should be.

But Emhyr let Ciri go (in the books). In the moment of his biggest personal triumph, surrounded by his whole army he showed mercy and, yes, humanity at last. He had achieved his greatest goal but he gives it up because there was still something good in him. And by doing so, he changed destiny. The one from whom you would have expected it the least showed that humanity and free will can still prevail, even in the darkest hours. He proved that even one of the supposedly most evil persons in the world is capable of empathy and humanity. Too bad they presented such a one-dimensional Emhyr in the games...

You're correct that could have been where they went with it but it's interesting to also see the idea of "re-lapses" into old behavior. Nilfgaard has once more invaded the North and gone back to all of its old tricks of conquest (as we see in AOK). So the question is: Is Emhyr really remorseful as he was before or have the past seven years caused him to regret his giving up his daughter as a moment of personal weakness?

Then again, people are complex and it's entirely (even common) for those we deem as "evil" to have loved ones.

If I got that right the Aen Elle fear the White Frost as well in th games at least. So stopping the Frost must be at least one of their agendas as well (if not that one speculation is really true that the Hunt is the manifestation of the Frost itself...)

Near as I can tell, it goes like this:

1. The White Frost is destroying the Aen Elle world.
2. The Aen Elle have sorcerers protecting many of their cities and locations from destruction by it.
3. These are failing.
4. Ciri is someone they believe can help them do a new Conjunction of Spheres which will result in all of them coming over to this world. Which will kill Ciri in the process.
5. They will then exterminate humanity and replace them.
6. This is a stupid plan because the White Frost will be coming to the Witcher Planet not too long anyway according to Alvin and will eventually wipe out all inhabited worlds.

This is all kind of glossed over, though.

[quoteI don't mind more evil characters neither. I just don't like all evil clichés like Whoreson.[/quote]

About the only thing good about Whoreson is he makes Geralt feel like he's done SOMETHING decent in the past few weeks.

And Eredin is an all evil cliché in the game as well. Without the context of the books we wouldn't even know anything about his racism or possible plans to invade other worlds. TW3 surely doesn't tell us anything about i]

If I was writing The Wild Hunt

1. The Wild Hunt soldier in the Elven Ruin would have been Eredin. Eredin and Geralt would get to talk for a bit before doing a fight. Eredin would then win the fight ala Letho despite Keira's presence and retreat through a portal because Ciri isn't here and he can't be bothered with this crap.
2. On the boat ride to Skellige, Geralt would dream of his time with the Wild Hunt where he would talk to Eredin as they discuss the fact the White Frost is destroying the Aen Elle homeworld and how they need to find a Elder Blood individual to help them.
Ciri would then come to rescue Geralt and they escape. Only for him to wake up during the Skellige attack.
3. Conversations with both Generals of the Wild Hunt before battle.
4. One final conversation with Eredin before you kill him.
 
Eh, one of the "off" elements of the video game is Geralt is having more success as a Witcher in the past seven years than he's had in the past hundred. As a Witcher he does occasional jobs for people but mostly people are protective of monsters as endangered species and he has roughly as much respect as a poacher. In the Witcher games, monsters are everywhere, a dire threat to the public, and he's routinely saving whole villages.
I agree. But that's just something that comes with the nature of being an "action RPG video game". It's one of the compromises you have to make that naturally affects the narrative. I'm ok with that since I do accept the nature of the video game. Still it's no excuse for narrative inconsistencies in other aspects that are not directly affected by video game design.

You're correct that could have been where they went with it but it's interesting to also see the idea of "re-lapses" into old behavior. Nilfgaard has once more invaded the North and gone back to all of its old tricks of conquest (as we see in AOK). So the question is: Is Emhyr really remorseful as he was before or have the past seven years caused him to regret his giving up his daughter as a moment of personal weakness?
Well, a relapse is totally possible. But still Emhyr showed more emotions and nuances in that one long dialogue with Geralt in The Lady of the Lake after the battle for Stygga than he did in the entire storyline of TW3, even when he talks in private with Geralt. I mean, it's comprehensible that he lost his way again although in the books he was imo always described as somebody who felt that he is more forced by the "sachzwang of being emperor" to do certain things than by his own personal will. I remember those scenes with fake Ciri in which he showed humanity as well although he didn't have to and an all bad Emhyr surely wouldn't do. The way he is presented in the game doesn't imply such a behaviour and people who don't know the books wouldn't come to the conclusion that Emhyr maybe has a softer core than it seems.

Then again, people are complex and it's entirely (even common) for those we deem as "evil" to have loved ones.
That's it. And that's what I'm missing in Witcher 3. It imo fails to show Emhyr as a human being capable of feelings. Sometimes it's just a nuance, like the tone of the voice or it's volume that makes the difference. I'd hoped Charles Dance would deliver on that but I was disappointed by his performance though I think it was CDPR's more one-dimensional direction than him. The Charles Dance I know definitely has the capabilities to show even subtle nuances in voice and acting. Even a bigger disappointment that the probably best voice actor of the whole game voiced one of the most one-dimensonal characters in the game.... :-

1. The White Frost is destroying the Aen Elle world.
2. The Aen Elle have sorcerers protecting many of their cities and locations from destruction by it.
3. These are failing.
4. Ciri is someone they believe can help them do a new Conjunction of Spheres which will result in all of them coming over to this world. Which will kill Ciri in the process.
5. They will then exterminate humanity and replace them.
6. This is a stupid plan because the White Frost will be coming to the Witcher Planet not too long anyway according to Alvin and will eventually wipe out all inhabited worlds.
I have several problems with that.

1) It was never described that the Aen Gathe and the Conjunction of Spheres was the very same thing. Imo they are pretty much different things and CDPR only made them equal to be able to "let enemies rain from sky in the last 10 minutes of the game"...
2) It is nowhere explained or even mentioned that the White Frost threatens the world of the Aen Elle. Neither in the books nor in the game. The only information we have about the White Frost is that it threatens the Witcher world.
3) If the world of the Aen Elle is threatened by the White Frost and if they are able to open Aen Gathe with Ciri's help there is actualy no reason why they should choose the Witcher world as destination for migration. It would be much easier to choose a world that is not inhabited by thousand or millions of basically hostile humans. Of course there is he matter that the elves on earth and in the world of Aen Elle have the same predecessors which is also established in the games. It's also unlikely that everyone in the band of the Aen Elle wants the same thing he wants. Avallac'h surely doesn't. So the complex aspect of politics, racial conflicts and personal motivations is broken down to very simplistic and in the end unbelievable actions.
4) You say it yourself, the plan is stupid. So why do they do what they do? CDPR fails do deliver a good explanation for it. Stating that Eredin and basically every Aen Elle is just evil and hates humans and want to kills all humans is incredibly cheap imo.
5) None of that solves the question what the White Frost actually is...

About the only thing good about Whoreson is he makes Geralt feel like he's done SOMETHING decent in the past few weeks.
I don't know. I let him alive. I don't see how treating with Whoreson could make Geralt feeling better. Every minute in the sphere of this lunatic would pull a sane person down. And vengeance almost never leads to personal satisfaction. ;)

If I was writing The Wild Hunt

1. The Wild Hunt soldier in the Elven Ruin would have been Eredin. Eredin and Geralt would get to talk for a bit before doing a fight. Eredin would then win the fight ala Letho despite Keira's presence and retreat through a portal because Ciri isn't here and he can't be bothered with this crap.
2. On the boat ride to Skellige, Geralt would dream of his time with the Wild Hunt where he would talk to Eredin as they discuss the fact the White Frost is destroying the Aen Elle homeworld and how they need to find a Elder Blood individual to help them.
Ciri would then come to rescue Geralt and they escape. Only for him to wake up during the Skellige attack.
3. Conversations with both Generals of the Wild Hunt before battle.
4. One final conversation with Eredin before you kill him.

I think one of the best solutions for that would have been three flashback scenes that shows the time when Geralt and his band of witchers (with Letho and his guys) encountered the Hunt for the first time in person, so basically the "prequel" to the Witcher games.

1) The first scene would be a Geralt POV playable scne that shows the events which lead to him trading himself in for Yennefer and agreeing to ride with the hunt (which is much a personal defeat). There is obviously a lot of potential here for talking and giving context to the whole background of the story and the Hunt. The moment for this flashback to take place could be the end of the prologue in Vizima after Geralt met Yen again and after the Rid Hunters hunted them on the way from White Orchard to Vizima. Of course this flashback would work better if Yen had more interaction and screen time in Vizima, e.g. by her taking the role of questioning about the past (instead of the barber).

2) The second scene would show scenes from Geralt riding with the Hunt. It would be only a set short and wild cutscenes (not playable) Geralt dreams about while he lays at the beach after the ship wrecking on his first way to Skellige.

3) The third flashback scene would show how Ciri helped Geralt to escape the hunt. So it would be a Ciri POV playable flashback scene. Imo the best place to set this scene is while Avallac'h and Geralt are travelling through different worlds. Imo the spot on the ice planet at the end in the tower just before they reach Tir La Nia would be perfectly suited for that because it has the proper context for Geralt to ask Avallac'h if he know how Ciri managed to free him from the Hunt.

And on top of that Eredin's dialogues in both Kaer Morhen and on Skellige at the end should be rewritten and enhanced to be able to make references to these scenes and bring the whole Wild Hunt story arc (that barely exists in the game without these kind of flashbacks) to a "proper end. By going all the way back to even before Witcher 1 CDPR would truly give closure to this triology of games, like the famous Uroboros. ;)
 
It is nowhere explained or even mentioned that the White Frost threatens the world of the Aen Elle. Neither in the books nor in the game.

There is a note in Ge'el's palace.

 

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I updated my first post with some of my suggestions how to fix most of the problems with the Wild Hunt. I also like Scholdarr's ideas to include flashbacks of Geralts/Yennefers time with the Hunt. I will include them later, when I have a bit more time.
 
The suggestions are really good.
i like the idea of the flashbacks and a playable flashback would be awesome.

I really hope this Thread gets some attention from the devs...it's time.
 
I updated my first post with some of my suggestions how to fix most of the problems with the Wild Hunt. I also like Scholdarr's ideas to include flashbacks of Geralts/Yennefers time with the Hunt. I will include them later, when I have a bit more time.


Great ideas, may we'll even get to play badass Geralt in Red Rider's sick armor and awesome voice auto-tune
 
Lady with the pan has a deeper representation in game than Eredin.

Avallac'h, Ciri, Geralt, Yen... All of these characters are perfectly suited to have flashbacks and conversations about Eredin in order to explain him better.

As a matter of fact, it would be best if all of them are utilised, so we get different point of views about Eredin.

Witcher 2 did a good job with flashbacks, although I'd prefer ingame content rather than comics.
 
:hmm:

[rozpoczęcie dialogu]
[I need answers.]
[Didn't you already have them? You've been among us, you've been one of us, witcher.]
[I recover my memory, but I don't remember what happened after I joined the hunt.]
[You still didn't completely recover your memory? After all that time. How pity. We ventured through this world together many times, taking away childrens of their parents in countless towns and villages in seek for a child. Ciri's child. The one you once meet in Vizima. Alvin was his name? There also was a second child. The same as him, but grown. We almost got him in Aldersberg. It was a bad idea to erase his memory. We almost succeeded, but something went wrong and his mind got corrupted and unstable, and I doubt his memory were erased properly. That's probably explaining his hatred towards nonhumans and especially elfs. And in the end he escaped. We wouldn't need Ciri if only we had him. Young Alvin was in your hands a few years ago. You were the one who find him. A witcher with amnesia. And in the end it was your hands took his life. Pretty ironic, don't you think? Savior of the worlds was killed by a simple witcher. I think he didn't even realise that you will do this until very end.]
[I don't believe any word of yours, all I hear is just a pure speculation and lies.]
[I'm not going to convince you. We have our ways to find someone who travelling through time and space and there is only two people who did exactly that so easily. Only one now is among the living. And Ciri is our last chance. Only Avalac'h is standing between me an her. He want to use her for his own mysterious plans, am I right? We can save your and our world from White Frost right now, if you could bring her to me.]
[And what will happend next, Eredin? After when you save us from the White Frost? Conquer our and other worlds with Ciri as your puppet?]
[You know how this will end. If you want, you can become my general and be at my side when Aen Elle will triumph, Geralt. Although it doesn't matter what you choose, every decision you make will bring devastation. Each choice will lead to a greater evil. It's your Destiny, White Wolf. And it is time for you to decide.]
 
:hmm:

[rozpoczęcie dialogu]
[I need answers.]
[Didn't you already have them? You've been among us, you've been one of us, witcher.]
[I recover my memory, but I don't remember what happened after I joined the hunt.]
[You still didn't completely recover your memory? After all that time. How pity. We ventured through this world together many times, taking away childrens of their parents in countless towns and villages in seek for a child. Ciri's child. The one you once meet in Vizima. Alvin was his name? There also was a second child. The same as him, but grown. We almost got him in Aldersberg. It was a bad idea to erase his memory. We almost succeeded, but something went wrong and his mind got corrupted and unstable, and I doubt his memory were erased properly. That's probably explaining his hatred towards nonhumans and especially elfs. And in the end he escaped. We wouldn't need Ciri if only we had him. Young Alvin was in your hands a few years ago. You were the one who find him. A witcher with amnesia. And in the end it was your hands took his life. Pretty ironic, don't you think? Savior of the worlds was killed by a simple witcher. I think he didn't even realise that you will do this until very end.]
[I don't believe any word of yours, all I hear is just a pure speculation and lies.]
[I'm not going to convince you. We have our ways to find someone who travelling through time and space and there is only two people who did exactly that so easily. Only one now is among the living. And Ciri is our last chance. Only Avalac'h is standing between me an her. He want to use her for his own mysterious plans, am I right? We can save your and our world from White Frost right now, if you could bring her to me.]
[And what will happend next, Eredin? After when you save us from the White Frost? Conquer our and other worlds with Ciri as your puppet?]
[You know how this will end. If you want, you can become my general and be at my side when Aen Elle will triumph, Geralt. Although it doesn't matter what you choose, every decision you make will bring devastation. Each choice will lead to a greater evil. It's your Destiny, White Wolf. And it is time for you to decide.]

That would be a real mind-fuck ! LoL but would have been a very good plot twist !
 
:hmm:

[rozpoczęcie dialogu]
[I need answers.]
[Didn't you already have them? You've been among us, you've been one of us, witcher.]
[I recover my memory, but I don't remember what happened after I joined the hunt.]
[You still didn't completely recover your memory? After all that time. How pity. We ventured through this world together many times, taking away childrens of their parents in countless towns and villages in seek for a child. Ciri's child. The one you once meet in Vizima. Alvin was his name? There also was a second child. The same as him, but grown. We almost got him in Aldersberg. It was a bad idea to erase his memory. We almost succeeded, but something went wrong and his mind got corrupted and unstable, and I doubt his memory were erased properly. That's probably explaining his hatred towards nonhumans and especially elfs. And in the end he escaped. We wouldn't need Ciri if only we had him. Young Alvin was in your hands a few years ago. You were the one who find him. A witcher with amnesia. And in the end it was your hands took his life. Pretty ironic, don't you think? Savior of the worlds was killed by a simple witcher. I think he didn't even realise that you will do this until very end.]
[I don't believe any word of yours, all I hear is just a pure speculation and lies.]
[I'm not going to convince you. We have our ways to find someone who travelling through time and space and there is only two people who did exactly that so easily. Only one now is among the living. And Ciri is our last chance. Only Avalac'h is standing between me an her. He want to use her for his own mysterious plans, am I right? We can save your and our world from White Frost right now, if you could bring her to me.]
[And what will happend next, Eredin? After when you save us from the White Frost? Conquer our and other worlds with Ciri as your puppet?]
[You know how this will end. If you want, you can become my general and be at my side when Aen Elle will triumph, Geralt. Although it doesn't matter what you choose, every decision you make will bring devastation. Each choice will lead to a greater evil. It's your Destiny, White Wolf. And it is time for you to decide.]

That's insanely good. It closes all the open ends of TW1 and combines them in one consistent plotline.



And Galahad, the damn sucker, finally got his shot it seems... :p

---------- Updated at 11:54 PM ----------

Incredible dialog, wish cd project wouldn't have removed it from the game, it shed light on some interesting aspects of the game .

That was CUT CONTENT? I can't believe that...
 
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