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Eredin says 12 sentences during the whole game and.....

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Rawls

Rawls

Moderator
#141
Jun 9, 2015
kl4user said:
It is not. Remember TW2 where we watched Letho and Iorveth meeting. CDPR could've showed something like this. They could've taken pages from the book and shown Ciri and Eredin or better, made it playable. They could've used Ge'els and Avallach to tells us more about their vision of Eredin and the wild hunt. They could've used Eredin's spectre like in the first game. They could've put more info in some books and notes. They could've made a much more interesting and talkative battle between Eredin and Geralt. They could've made Geralt remember something about his time with the Hunt. And more.
Click to expand...
Yes. I agree with all of this except for the battle fight conversation part. I have said in a bunch of places now that a flashback scene with Ciri, Eredin and Avallach would have added a lot of depth. Ge'el was another opportunity missed. I don't think these scenes would have greatly changed the game, but it would have definitely added depth and made the third act more satisfying. All we would need then would be a little more intensity in the final battle. I think that Ciri should have explicitly saved Geralt's life and Geralt should have explicitly saved Ciri's life at different points in the battle. Also making the witches more integral to the battle would have been great. Finally we should have played Ciri in her journey into the White Frost. I swear this is one of my favorite games ever - please don't take my suggestions as implying I didn't like it.
 
Last edited: Jun 9, 2015
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K

kl4user

Forum regular
#142
Jun 9, 2015
Rawls said:
Yes. I agree with all of this except for the battle fight conversation part.
Click to expand...
I mean not how it was in TW2 with Letho, but while they were fighting, some banter, some mocking. I would love to see games having more of this.

Rawls said:
please don't take my suggestions as implying I didn't like it.
Click to expand...
Sure, I think everyone here just wanted the game to be even better.
 
L

luc0s

Forum veteran
#143
Jun 9, 2015
To be honest I don't agree that depth and exposition create an interesting villain. I'd use the Mass Effect series as proof that sometimes adding depth and more exposition to your main villain might actually ruin it.

The Reapers were really interesting in ME1. I loved Sovereign and I thought he was one of the best villains I've seen in a videogame. I loved how we didn't know jack about the reapers and how they're one big mystery. It actually made them feel more threatening. the fact that Sovereign doesn't really talk much only made him more menacing.

Then came ME2 and everything went downhill from there. The very talkative Harbinger was such a step back from Sovereign. When we learned were reapers come from and how they're build (e.g. turning entire species into a big slush puppy) I was actually rather disappointed. It made the reapers less awesome for me, not more awesome.

Then with ME3 they just completely ruined it. Explaining the history and motivations of the reapers ruined all the mystery surrounding them and actually made them look incredibly dumb.

To me knowing that the Wild Hunt are simply a bunch of elves from another dimension already kinda ruined it for me. I liked the mystery surrounding the Wild Hunt. I never thought the Wild Hunt was interesting after they ruined that mystery by revealing they're just elves from another dimension.

I doubt giving Eredin more lines would have made him a more interesting villain.
 
F

FarrySquall

Rookie
#144
Jun 9, 2015
luc0s said:
To be honest I don't agree that depth and exposition create an interesting villain. I'd use the Mass Effect series as proof that sometimes adding depth and more exposition to your main villain might actually ruin it.

To me knowing that the Wild Hunt are simply a bunch of elves from another dimension already kinda ruined it for me. I liked the mystery surrounding the Wild Hunt. I never thought the Wild Hunt was interesting after they ruined that mystery by revealing they're just elves from another dimension.

I doubt giving Eredin more lines would have made him a more interesting villain.
Click to expand...
Totally agree, they just the ordinary elf from another world with a bit advance in magic (power to freeze everything, travel between world) almost completely ruin the fun. Even the fight with Immerith is more difficult and interesting compare with Eredin
 
I

inanimate_object

Rookie
#145
Jun 9, 2015
luc0s said:
To be honest I don't agree that depth and exposition create an interesting villain. I'd use the Mass Effect series as proof that sometimes adding depth and more exposition to your main villain might actually ruin it.

The Reapers were really interesting in ME1. I loved Sovereign and I thought he was one of the best villains I've seen in a videogame. I loved how we didn't know jack about the reapers and how they're one big mystery. It actually made them feel more threatening. the fact that Sovereign doesn't really talk much only made him more menacing.

Then came ME2 and everything went downhill from there. The very talkative Harbinger was such a step back from Sovereign. When we learned were reapers come from and how they're build (e.g. turning entire species into a big slush puppy) I was actually rather disappointed. It made the reapers less awesome for me, not more awesome.

Then with ME3 they just completely ruined it. Explaining the history and motivations of the reapers ruined all the mystery surrounding them and actually made them look incredibly dumb.

To me knowing that the Wild Hunt are simply a bunch of elves from another dimension already kinda ruined it for me. I liked the mystery surrounding the Wild Hunt. I never thought the Wild Hunt was interesting after they ruined that mystery by revealing they're just elves from another dimension.

I doubt giving Eredin more lines would have made him a more interesting villain.
Click to expand...
Interesting theory. I've heard it before and yes it does have merit in some cases. But in such cases where the antagonist is purposefully some mystical thing without character, the story must be carried by things besides the villain. But the Witcher 3 is titled "The Wild Hunt", They are a prominent feature of all the games, and are set up as a very mysterious riddle to be solved. The writing necessitates that they explain the Wild Hunt. Look no further than Witcher 2, where Geralt is literally going place to place asking about the Wild Hunt. The franchise is built AROUND the concept of the villain. This makes it impossible to avoid fleshing them out. Whereas Mass Effect is not about the Reapers, it's about the player.

And while characterless villains do have their place in fiction, I argue against any person that says that this type of villain is superior to well fleshed out characters. Characters like the passive agressive GlaDos, Andrew Ryan, Atlas and Handsome Jack are the pinnacle of video game writing in terms of creating villains absolutely teeming with richness of character, depth, believability and show-stopping, scene stealing greatness. When they are overthrown, it feels more than going from point A to point B. More than checking off a tickbox and waiting for the story to end. There is an emotional catharsis when a villain who has made you feel something is overthrown. That rarely ever can happen with the underdeveloped villain without a face.
 
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S

SpacemanCometh

Rookie
#146
Jun 9, 2015
jj284b said:
you only play as Ciri, when somebody tells Geralt her story...
Click to expand...
Battle of Kaer Morhen?
Crones battle?
Caranthir battle?

Besides, if someone is telling Geralt what happened to Ciri, you AREN´T seeing it from Geralt´s perspective, you are seeing it from the perspective of whoever is telling him the story.

This whole perspective argument is full of holes.
 
Last edited: Jun 9, 2015
J

jj284b

Senior user
#147
Jun 9, 2015
in all three these examples, Geralt could learn what happened from Ciri (or others).. yet what happened when she jumped through portal to fight the White Frost, Geralt had no chance knowing at that time.
 
T

TudorAdrian

Senior user
#148
Jun 9, 2015
jj284b said:
in all three these examples, Geralt could learn what happened from Ciri (or others).. yet what happened when she jumped through portal to fight the White Frost, Geralt had no chance knowing at that time.
Click to expand...
True but in 2/3 endings you get reunited with Ciri...do you not feel that this would have been a good opportunity to elaborate on what she actually did to stop the Frost? Or even elaborate on what exactly happened after she entered the tower? All you get is a fade-to-black screen and story just flashes forward to the epilogue..It's a bit lazy if you ask me..It would have been better if we could have seen the aftermath of Geralt seeing Ciri vanish...Triss/Yen coming up to the tower and trying to talk sense into a grief stricken Geralt...Ciri reapearing etc.. I appreciate that sometimes the writing doesn't have to lay it all out for the audience but this was not one of those moments..All should have been elaborated seeing how it is after all ...Geralt's final chapter??
 
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J

jj284b

Senior user
#149
Jun 9, 2015
maybe they will, we still dont know what remaining 10 DLCs will bring. Doubt it will be all just about additional armors and looks..
 
T

TudorAdrian

Senior user
#150
Jun 9, 2015
jj284b said:
maybe they will, we still dont know what remaining 10 DLCs will bring. Doubt it will be all just about additional armors and looks..
Click to expand...
True buddy..but we can only hope at this point...I pretty much doubt that the DLC packs were thought out to be a main story enhancer / filler..I mean who in their right mind would leave holes in the plot intentionally, pissing off fans and then trying to reconcile them in the aftermath...sounds like risky business to me..I'm pretty sure it's going to be mainly skins (Triss & Ciri alternate outfits), armors (Wolf armor DLC pack) and maybe some sidequests (I recall seeing some of the game's XML files where these were alluded). What would need to happen to set things right would be in the Enhanced Edition/GOTY/Director's Cut lines which they might not look into any time soon seeing how they have a lot on their hands with performance issues on consoles and ironing out open-world bugs (ex. the XP bugs post ending etc)..not to mention getting ready for Cyberpunk..
 
Last edited: Jun 9, 2015
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TearOfTheSun

TearOfTheSun

Rookie
#151
Jun 9, 2015
To be honest Eredin to me felt out of place. I thought he would bring more, but he's just there. To bad he didnt fight in a last scene.
 
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TheDespondentMind2

Rookie
#152
Jun 9, 2015
CDPR will forever be remembered as one of the best writers in gaming history, and that's why Eredin is such a sad sad misstep.

Seriously how could they have let this happen. The OP illustrates the point perfectly with his 12 lines, his ridiculous and boring.
 
Last edited: Jun 10, 2015
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L

Linkenski

Rookie
#153
Jun 9, 2015
You forgot about the absolutely terrible handling of Radovid who turned from being a reasonable but radical figure in TW2 into being a derp madman who sits on a boat playing chess to make him look evil. There were lots of good things in TW3, but here and there it really started to reek of Bioware and everyone had hoped CDPR was still above that level of dumb.

TheDespondentMind2 said:
CDPR will forever be remembered as one of the best writers in gaming history, and that's why Eredis is such a sad sad misstep.

Seriously how could they have let this happen. The OP illustrates the point perfectly with his 12 lines, his ridiculous and boring.
Click to expand...
They can get a vouch for "best writers in RPG gaming history" and nothing more. Of an Open-world RPG Witcher 3 was unmatched but from a literary perspective stretching across all genres they don't even make my top-10 with this game.
 
Last edited: Jun 9, 2015
M

moonknightgog

Forum veteran
#154
Jun 9, 2015
Linkenski said:
You forgot about the absolutely terrible handling of Radovid who turned from being a reasonable but radical figure in TW2 into being a derp madman who sits on a boat playing chess to make him look evil. There were lots of good things in TW3, but here and there it really started to reek of Bioware and everyone had hoped CDPR was still above that level of dumb.
Click to expand...
This is the problem. The narrative pretends that Radovid is a tactical genious...but this "genious" is never showed.
 
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moonknightgog

Forum veteran
#155
Jun 10, 2015
Uhm...I was thinking, in order to characterize Eredin and his generals (but mostly Eredin) it would be not only necessary simple more screenplay, or the explanation of his motivations and plans about Ciri...but even showing his "human" side. What define us as person is mostly our emotions.
The necessity of saving his people have to be showed through his words and his attitude. Maybe even show him crying the death of one of his friends (Caranthir, maybe?) would add a lot to his human side, allow the player to think... "are this a bad guy"?

Maybe even a slightly redesign... There isn't a scene in which is showed his noble attitude. I have to say that I like a lot this fanart:



Eredin here....seems truly "noble" and..."proud". With just a very simple attitude.
http://afternoon63.deviantart.com/art/King-of-the-Wild-Hunt-535106914
 
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TudorAdrian

Senior user
#156
Jun 10, 2015
moonknightgog said:
Uhm...I was thinking, in order to characterize Eredin and his generals (but mostly Eredin) it would be not only necessary simple more screenplay, or the explanation of his motivations and plans about Ciri...but even showing his "human" side. What define us as person is mostly our emotions.
The necessity of saving his people have to be showed through his words and his attitude. Maybe even show him crying the death of one of his friends (Caranthir, maybe?) would add a lot to his human side, allow the player to think... "are this a bad guy"?

Maybe even a slightly redesign... There isn't a scene in which is showed his noble attitude. I have to say that I like a lot this fanart:



Eredin here....seems truly "noble" and..."proud". With just a very simple attitude.
http://afternoon63.deviantart.com/art/King-of-the-Wild-Hunt-535106914
Click to expand...
Hmm..showing us Eredin's emotions / soft side could be a bit too far fetched...I do agree that he was a badly underdeveloped character. Instead they could have gave him (and the entire Wild Hunt) a lot more presence..even keeping him in the lines of a dangerous, twisted and dark character but adding some depth to his entire being..he's blander than Pac-Man lol..
 
B

bilsantu

Rookie
#157
Jun 10, 2015
I don't know if anyone mentioned but he also appears on The Cave of Dreams quest as well.
 
S

Scholdarr.452

Banned
#158
Jun 10, 2015
moonknightgog said:
Uhm...I was thinking, in order to characterize Eredin and his generals (but mostly Eredin) it would be not only necessary simple more screenplay, or the explanation of his motivations and plans about Ciri...but even showing his "human" side. What define us as person is mostly our emotions.
The necessity of saving his people have to be showed through his words and his attitude. Maybe even show him crying the death of one of his friends (Caranthir, maybe?) would add a lot to his human side, allow the player to think... "are this a bad guy"?
Click to expand...
Well, the most basic problem of the depiction of Eredin is that CDPR "perverted" him in any possible way to be able to present the "ultimative evil guy". But the truth is: Eredin never killed Auberon Muircetach. Auberon committed suicide after he recognized that would never be able to impregnate Ciri. He was way too proud to accept that and so he chose death to deal with it. Eredin was actually surprised when he heard the news about his dead. And I mean genuice surprise, the way it was described in the books.

And you're right, like Avallac'h and Auberon he really cares for his people. He might despise the human race and so he might be a fanatical racist but he still has good sides to him. He protects his people and like Auberon and Avallac'h he wants their "brother race", the Aen Seidhe, to be saved from the White Frost. He wants the elven culture and superiority to reign supreme again, like it is the case in Tir la Nia, at least on the first sight.

Their biggest issue of course is their open racism and violently practiced discrimination and domination of other elven races and especially human races. But not only Eredin is like that. Avallac'h all shares the very same believings. To that regard, both characters are "evil", they just pursue different strategies to get to the goal: Eredin, the sparrowhawk, tries to convince the swallow with direct and open arguments and the stick while Avallac'h, the fox, tries it with a more nuanced strategy and the carrot. But following the unicorns and Vysogot alike tell Ciri that both are equally lying and dangerous, only pursuing their own goals. They both don't care about the human race, they only care about their own power and the elven races. But can we trust the unicorns? To which extend? What do we really know about them and their agenda? Actually there would be quite a lot of space for good stories here but all the possbilities were wasted. The unicorns play an important role in the Aen Elle - humans - interaction in the books, but they don't even appear in the games. Even more so, they weren't even mentioned. Like they never existed which is pretty sad and another inconsistency with the books.

And why the hell looks Imlerith like a thug instead of a hundred of years old highly cultivated and sophisticated elf? Why does he have skinhead? I mean, really? An elf? A skinhead? Although that doesn't match any description of any elf in the books and although the Aen Elle are described to have long hair and a typcial elven face? Epic face, I'd say. Why making a complex character that doesn't match the stereotype of an evil, bad guy if you could just make exactly that stereotype character, even in art design? I don't get if, really. It's so clichéd and stereotype, you would assume CDPR would never do something like that and that some other studio had created his character (and pretty much all of the bunch of the Wild Hunt).

Eredin being the ultimate bad guy and Avallac'h being the ultimate good guy in the end is just bollocks and inconsistent with the books (which of course is based on the fact that the whole portal scene at the end is a huge inconsistency with the books itself). So much potential wasted with these characters and the whole Aen Elle aspect of the world. Shame... :(

---------- Updated at 12:52 AM ----------

moonknightgog said:
This is the problem. The narrative pretends that Radovid is a tactical genious...but this "genious" is never showed.
Click to expand...
It actually IS shown or at least mentioned. He apparently took whole Kaedwen by using a ploy.
 
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I

inanimate_object

Rookie
#159
Jun 11, 2015
Eredin is not meant to be a faceless evil villain. Yet at the same time, in the novels, he is clearly not set up as a sympathetic character or the type of villain that is simply a misunderstood soul. His character is not explored by winning the reader over so that they can understand things from his viewpoint. But of all the elves in the novels, I'd say Eredin has the most depth. He is the most cunning of the three main Aen Elle and you always get a sense that he has a motive even if you do not know what it is. I think the best display of his mystery and depth is when SPOILERS...

Ciri asks whether Eredin had given the king an aphrodisiac or a poison. Either scenario is plausible for this character and it exemplifies how much of a realized character Eredin is.
 
M

moonknightgog

Forum veteran
#160
Jun 11, 2015
inanimate_object said:
Eredin is not meant to be a faceless evil villain. Yet at the same time, in the novels, he is clearly not set up as a sympathetic character or the type of villain that is simply a misunderstood soul. His character is not explored by winning the reader over so that they can understand things from his viewpoint. But of all the elves in the novels, I'd say Eredin has the most depth. He is the most cunning of the three main Aen Elle and you always get a sense that he has a motive even if you do not know what it is. I think the best display of his mystery and depth is when SPOILERS...

Ciri asks whether Eredin had given the king an aphrodisiac or a poison. Either scenario is plausible for this character and it exemplifies how much of a realized character Eredin is.
Click to expand...
But please, lets forget for a moment the Eredin books version.
The problem is not "how Eredin is different from the books".
The problem is that Tomira in White Orchard has more depth (and an unforgivable ass)than the Eredin game version.
 
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