Eredin says 12 sentences during the whole game and.....

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Eredin is not meant to be a faceless evil villain. Yet at the same time, in the novels, he is clearly not set up as a sympathetic character or the type of villain that is simply a misunderstood soul. His character is not explored by winning the reader over so that they can understand things from his viewpoint. But of all the elves in the novels, I'd say Eredin has the most depth. He is the most cunning of the three main Aen Elle and you always get a sense that he has a motive even if you do not know what it is. I think the best display of his mystery and depth is when ...
Eredin doesn't have to be a sympathetic character. But he should have "real", plausible motivations that cannot be presented in 12 cheesy one-liners. Eredin is actually a fanatical racist who bases his world view on a strong sense of superiority that is not exclusive to himself but probably all or at least most people of his race.

And imo Avallac'h has more depth than Eredin in the books, actually a lot more.

Ciri asks whether Eredin had given the king an aphrodisiac or a poison. Either scenario is plausible for this character and it exemplifies how much of a realized character Eredin is.
Actually there is no real doubt imo that Eredin didn't kill Auberon. Even in the last Auberson scene itself it was pretty clear that he committed suicide.
 
Eredin doesn't have to be a sympathetic character. But he should have "real", plausible motivations that cannot be presented in 12 cheesy one-liners. Eredin is actually a fanatical racist who bases his world view on a strong sense of superiority that is not exclusive to himself but probably all or at least most people of his race.

And imo Avallac'h has more depth than Eredin in the books, actually a lot more.


Actually there is no real doubt imo that Eredin didn't kill Auberon. Even in the last Auberson scene itself it was pretty clear that he committed suicide.
I don't agree with either of those statements. I don't know which versions you read, but in the French translations and original Polish it is clear to me that Ciri explicitly brings this question up to sow doubt into the reader's mind as to what actually had happened to Auberon and what Eredin had planned/was expecting from it. I think this chapter of the book is probably one of the weakest in the series but Eredin steals the show from Avallac every time. That the author can suggest two very different behaviours of Eredin and both be seen to be plausible actions taken by his character, I think speaks to how realized he is as a character. Avallac on the other hand, is hardly what I would call someone with an extraordinary amount of depth. His development is both blandly straightforward and not nearly as interesting or subtle as Eredin.
 
I don't agree with either of those statements. I don't know which versions you read, but in the French translations and original Polish it is clear to me that Ciri explicitly brings this question up to sow doubt into the reader's mind as to what actually had happened to Auberon and what Eredin had planned/was expecting from it.
Exactly. But it's important how Eredin reacts to Ciri's question or better statement. He is actually surprised by the information that Auberon is dead which clearly indicates that he didn't kill him. I do agree that we don't really know what he means when he asks Ciri to give Auberon the phial. But that's of course before Auberon's death and the scene in which Ciri confronts Eredin. The suicide story is also fitting to how the whole scene was built up.

Let's have a look. First the scene with Ciri and Eredin in which he tries to convince her to give Auberon the phial:

"Surely", [Eredin] slowly began, "you've alreaedy managed to get to know Auberon a bit. Surely you've already mentioned how incredibly ambitious he is. There are things that he will never accept, things that he will never even acknowledge. He rather dies."
Ciri kept silent, bite her lips and quinted towards the cot.
"Auberon Muircetach," the elf continued, "won't ever use magic or other means to change the current situation. But there are such means. Good, strong, reliable means. Much more effective than the attractors with which Avallac'h's servants accumulate your cosmetics."


This whole passage (I only used a small excerpt here) has two dimensions. First, what is said? Eredin says that Auberon would rather die than acknowlediging that he isn't capable of impregnating Ciri. And he wants Ciri to give him a phial with a liquid that should enable Auberon to do so, at least that's what he's implying. Is that the truth? Well, we don't know and it's left open in that scene. But there is a second dimension. We see this whole scene mostly through Ciri's eyes and she is very prejudiced towards Eredin. With her (extremely bad) experiences with people she assumes that others always want to abuse her and that everybody always wants to achieve the very worst. So she naturally thinks that Eredin wants to kill Auberon instead of "helping" him with his little potency problem. So the reader indeed is led on this way of thinking, by both Ciri's perspective and the open ending in this scene.

Let's have a look at the scene in which the dying Auberon talks with Ciri:

"Despite all of that", [Auberon] said, "I resent dying. And I feel incredibly sorry that I have to. Who whould have thought. I have thought that I wouldn't feel sorry. I've lived a long live, enjoyed everything to the full. Now I feel only tedium for everything. But nevertheless I feel sorrow now. And you know, what else? Bow down to me. I will speak it in your ear. I shall be our secret."
She bowed down to him.
"I'm scared." he whispered.
"I know."
"Are you with me?"
"Yes."
"Va faill, luned."
"Goodbye, erlking."


So what can be said about this scene. If you ask me Auberon doesn't show the behaviour of somebody who was killed by somebody else. He is calm, not angry. He also says that he only feels tedium for everything which implies that he doesn't have much will to live much longer. He also says that the thought that he wouldn't feel sorry which again implies that he maybe committed suicide.
But then again there is the phial with the green liquid inside which looks very much like the same phial Eredin wanted to give Ciri. So it's quite natural that Ciri assumed that Eredin succeeded with his plan to kill Auberon. She already though so from the beginning and this is the perfect proof for her.

So, final look on the third scene in which Ciri confronts Eredin:

"We return, Zirael. Auberon is waiting. Tonight, he will be strong and full of zest for action, I vouch for it."
"My ass", she repeated. "He has drunk to much of that invigoration agent. The one you gave to him. But perhaps that wasn't an invigoration agent after all?"
"What are you spaking of?"
"He is dead."
He immediately recovered from the surprise, suddenly lunged at her while he caused the boat to totter.


To me it seems pretty obvious in that scene that he doesn't know about Auberon's death. While he could have lied to Ciri before he was actually surprised when she told him. You can't be surprised if you've done it yourself.

So what could possibly have happened? My personal guess is that Eredin really wanted Auberon to impregnate Ciri. Therefore he gave the king the phial. But the king is too proud to use such an agent and exchanges the agent for a deadly one, rather killing himself than acknowledging that he isn't able himself to impregnate Ciri, like Eredin himself told Ciri before. If he told Ciri the truth about Auberon the king wouldn't accept such an agent. And why should Eredin lie about Auberon here? He has no reason to lie about that if you ask me. Or maybe it was indeed an invigoration agent and it just killed Auberon, like an accident. That doesn't seem very likely imo, based on the vast knowledge the Aen Elle have but it's still possible. In that case Eredin might have some responsibility for Auberon's death, but he neither murdered nor killed him. It was Auberon who drank the agent voluntarily, with nobody forcing him to do so.

(I've read the German version by the way which is said to be actually very closely translated to the Polish version so that shouldn't be a big issue here. If that's not true please tell me.)


I think this chapter of the book is probably one of the weakest in the series but Eredin steals the show from Avallac every time. That the author can suggest two very different behaviours of Eredin and both be seen to be plausible actions taken by his character, I think speaks to how realized he is as a character. Avallac on the other hand, is hardly what I would call someone with an extraordinary amount of depth. His development is both blandly straightforward and not nearly as interesting or subtle as Eredin.
Which two different behaviours of Eredin do you speak of. I can't see them tbh. And subtlety? Maybe mystery, but I wouldn't call it subtlety. And Avallac'h on the other hand is more complex because he's personally involved in the whole story, not only politically (at least based on what we know). He onced loved Lara Dorren. And his real motives and agendas are even more hidden than Eredin's and not straightforward at all. Sure, he tries to convince Ciri to get a child with Auberon. Eredin wants the very same thing, by the way. But we don't know how far Avallac'h would go to get what he wants. Eredin suggests that he "might use his lab if Ciri doesn't want to give birth to a child with Auberon". So maybe he'd do similar things Vilgefortz had planned for Ciri? But then again, could he actually do it, always seeing Lara in Ciri's eyes? You see Avallac'h has at least as many question marks above his head than Eredin. Maybe you like Eredin more or you find him more fascination, but that doesn't make him more complex.


And on a final note, I find this chapter being one of the better ones of the books. So the prespectives and opinions can differ I guess. ;)
 
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"Surely", [Eredin] slowly began, "you've alreaedy managed to get to know Auberon a bit. Surely you've already mentioned how incredibly ambitious he is. There are things that he will never accept, things that he will never even acknowledge. He rather dies."
Ciri kept silent, bite her lips and quinted towards the cot.
"Auberon Muircetach," the elf continued, "won't ever use magic or other means to change the current situation. But there are such means. Good, strong, reliable means. Much more effective than the attractors with which Avallac'h's servants accumulate your cosmetics."

This whole passage (I only used a small excerpt here) has two dimensions. First, what is said? Eredin says that Auberon would rather die than acknowlediging that he isn't capable of impregnating Ciri. And he wants Ciri to give him a phial with a liquid that should enable Auberon to do so, at least that's what he's implying. Is that the truth? Well, we don't know and it's left open in that scene. But there is a second dimension. We see this whole scene mostly through Ciri's eyes and she is very prejudiced towards Eredin. With her (extremely bad) experiences with people she assumes that others always want to abuse her and that everybody always wants to achieve the very worst. So she naturally thinks that Eredin wants to kill Auberon instead of "helping" him with his little potency problem. So the reader indeed is led on this way of thinking, by both Ciri's perspective and the open ending in this scene.

There is important context in this scene that you have omitted and it belies the second perspective to this scene, that of Eredin. Eredin is the only elf in this world who has decided to break the lie and deliberately tell Ciri that she will not leave even if she cooperates. Moreover, he establishes he wishes to make a deal with her and is the only elf I believe in the entire series who is characterized as: impatient. This is just before Eredin frames Auberon's character as one staunch, stubborn and someone who will not let Ciri have her way. This is a clear interaction of what is happening. Eredin is framing Ciri's situation in a way that makes it utterly desperate so she has every reason to treat with Eredin. To me it is clear that a very valid interpretation of this scen is that Eredin is trying to subtly force Ciri's hand by admitting to her the hopelessness of her current situation without his help, this coupled with the unique impatience of his character and suggestively furtive language makes this scene just as likely to be about poison as it has to do with aphrodisiacs, if not more.

And I don't think the proof stops there.

"Despite all of that", [Auberon] said, "I resent dying. And I feel incredibly sorry that I have to. Who whould have thought. I have thought that I wouldn't feel sorry. I've lived a long live, enjoyed everything to the full. Now I feel only tedium for everything. But nevertheless I feel sorrow now. And you know, what else? Bow down to me. I will speak it in your ear. I shall be our secret."
She bowed down to him.
"I'm scared." he whispered.
"I know."
"Are you with me?"
"Yes."
"Va faill, luned."
"Goodbye, erlking."

So what can be said about this scene. If you ask me Auberon doesn't show the behaviour of somebody who was killed by somebody else. He is calm, not angry. He also says that he only feels tedium for everything which implies that he doesn't have much will to live much longer. He also says that the thought that he wouldn't feel sorry which again implies that he maybe committed suicide.
You are interpreting everything except what Auberon is actually saying. Let me translate as best I can from French:

"I detest my own death and regret it must be."

Either translation here works. Auberon laments that he is dying and regrets that he cannot stop it. Except, a self-inflicted death is both avoidable and within his power to stop. In either interpretation, clearly Auberon at this point knows he is dying. However the calmness to you says that he is tranquil because he planned this, while I say he is calm because he has accepted that he is dying, albeit begrudgingly and somberly. The rest of his lines are similarly a regret of death, not necessarily a regret of self-harm. There is nothing in the exposition of this chapter that suggests Auberon has only the choice between death or impregnating Ciri, which makes it odd for his final words to suggest that he must die. Why must he die? Perhaps because it is beyond his control - the very opposite of a self-inflicted death.


I don't see any differences between my translation of the next scene and yours so we'll go with yours.


We return, Zirael. Auberon is waiting. Tonight, he will be strong and full of zest for action, I vouch for it."
"My ass", she repeated. "He has drunk to much of that invigoration agent. The one you gave to him. But perhaps that wasn't no invigoration agent after all?"
"What are you spaking of?"
"He is dead."
He immediately recovered from the surprise, suddenly lunged at her while he caused the boat to totter.

To me it seems pretty obvious in that scene that he doesn't know about Auberon's death. While he could have lied to Ciri before he was actually surprised when she told him. You can't be surprised if you've done it yourself.

So what could possibly have happened? My personal guess is that Eredin really wanted Auberon to impregnate Ciri. Therefore he gave the king the phial. But the king is too proud to use such an agent and exchanges the agent for a deadly one, rather killing himself than acknowledging that he isn't able himself to impregnate Ciri, like Eredin himself told Ciri before. If he told Ciri the truth about Auberon the king wouldn't accept such an agent. And why should Eredin lie about Auberon here? He has no reason to lie about that if you ask me
This is some evidence in favour of Eredin's innocence, yet the two previous scenes to me show in earnest Eredin's ambition and wit and that he is anything but forthright. I haven't much to say here except that Eredin is hardly at all moved by the revelation of the king's death. The french translation conveys surprise, as well, but this is incredibly brief and Eredin promptly forgets about it and continues his effort to return Ciri to the city. You may choose to chalk this up to the typically reserved nature of the elves we've seen in the story but it is not a convincing response from someone who has been impatiently waiting and invested in conceiving a child between Ciri and Auberon. The word "surprise" is contextually a red herring because it calls attention to the very opposite fact that Eredin does not appear surprised at all and that all his actions are not moved by Ciri's revelation.

In my opinion this is set up very clearly as a set of very ambiguous events, and Ciri voices this in the story to emphasize this point. That Eredin does not reply is equally as suggestive here. I think this chapter is not at all written towards a single interpretation and if I had to choose, I think the interpretation of poison is more convincing than that of Eredin's innocence. I think Eredin's character itself is an admirable effort because both interpretations are plausible for his established character.

As for Avallac, he served one clear purpose in my reading. That is to provide natural exposition and guidance of Ciri and by default, the reader, into the world of the Aen Elle. That is his primary purpose, to serve as a benchmark of familiarity that Ciri can interact with so the plot does not lose its footing by delving too deeply and abruptly into what is one of the more genre defying chapters of the novel. He is given appropriate characterization, being a lover to Ciri's progenitor and nothing else. His motives and boundaries are made explicitly clear. He serves the king and seeks Ciri's child both in honor and in spite of his former lover. He is not willing to harm Ciri or coerce her to action, as he clearly sees some glimpses of his former lover in her, though he would try to deny it. This is enough depth I suppose to sustain a character that appears only for a brief time, but I wouldn't say it's nearly as deep as Eredin's. Where Avallac's purpose is as an introduction into the mythos of Sapkowski's world and an expository tool, Eredin is the impetus for Ciri's story to progress. Eredin is the least elf-like elf. He is impatient, he brazenly doubts the words of other elves (which is considered a great insult), he openly admits to Ciri the deception they are weaving for her, and tries to weave a deception of his own in the middle. To what goals? To expedite what he believes is urgent, or to upset a leader he believes is unsatisfactory, Eredin is the only elf that defies the core mythos of elves that the book has built up. It is both in his capacity to feed aphrodisiacs to the king or to murder him. This makes him infinitely more interesting and well realized than Avalllac who appears more an expository machine and a wall for the story to allow Ciri to recapitulate her feelings after ever meeting with the King of Alders.
 
TW3 is one of the best games I've ever seen in over 25 years of gaming.

I must agree however, that the whole "Wild Hunt" Plot is somewhat to shallow. Eredin is supposed to be the main antagonist, but there's no depth in this character. As someone mentioned before, there are many simple npc peasants in game who are portrayed much more detailed than the king of the wild hunt.

If there's any chance, that should be reworked in EE.
 
I think the game did quite a bit of retconning of "Lady of the Lake"? My memory of the book is a bit shaky. The game shows Auberon drink the aphrodisiac, drop the bottle to the floor and falling ill, and Eredin picking up the bottle with an evil smile. Despite what the game implies, Auberon can't die in this moment because he has to live long enough to talk to Ciri before his death, like in the book. Eredin probably runs off while a sick Auberon is still slumped in his chair.

If the game has Eredin present when Auberon drinks the aphrodisiac, then Eredin will have plenty of time to emotionally prepare a "surprised" response to anyone who informs him of Auberon's death.
 
YEEEEH, and It really won't matter now anyway.

Time will tell I guess..but 'til then I'll stay away from the game...everytime I try to play it now all these things come to mind & I get so annoyed that I can't really enjoy it anymore.. Hopefully they'll fix this mess. They've acknowledged some of their issues..they should have a shitload more budget now (4 M of copies sold in the first 2 weeks..not to mention preorders) so don't really see any reason for CDPR not to fix it.
 
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Time will tell I guess..but 'til then I'll stay away from the game...everytime I try to play it now all these things come to mind & I get so annoyed that I can't really enjoy it anymore.. Hopefully they'll fix this mess. They've acknowledged some of their issues..they should have a shitload more budget now (4 M of copies sold in the first 2 weeks..not to mention preorders) so don't really see any reason for CDPR not to fix it.

That budget is for Cyberpunk.
 
He simply doesn't feel dangerous. The narrative pretends that Eredin is a big threat...but he doesn't feel like that.

Totally agree with you here. It doesnt feel like he's tirelessly pursuing you and Ciri and he's like always behind you, breathing on your neck.

But mostly there is no satisfaction when you finally defeat him. Just feels like some boss with very little confrontation between him and Geralt
 
That budget is for Cyberpunk.

Yeah but come on...say you average all W3 sales to about $40/copy (who knows what discounts people got etc..)..now multiply that by 4 M...and you get $160 M.. IIRC, W3's production costs were somewhere around $32M +$35M for marketing..that would mean around $67M which would lead to a profit of $93M in 2 weeks...that's not counting the other 1M of pre-orders... and this will likely double by say, the end of 2015.. now you tell me how much would it cost to get a couple of devs, writers & voice actors together to do some Wild Hunt quests / cinematics, re-visit the game endings (cause them slides suck bigtime) and do something about clarifying Geralt's f***in' amnesia..it's not like they have to start from scratch now...the engine is there..and I'm preeety sure, in regards to the Wild Hunt at least, there's already stuff that just didn't make it into the game (due to deadlines, technical issues etc.)...i know one of the closed doors demos they did actually dipped into a chunk of the main plot where Geralt actually chases down the Hunt, tries to find clues etc..
 
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Yeah but come on...say you average all W3 sales to about $40/copy (who knows what discounts people got etc..)..now multiply that by 4 M...and you get $160 M.. IIRC, W3's production costs were somewhere around $32M +$35M for marketing..that would mean around $77M which would lead to a profit of $83M in 2 weeks...that's not counting the other 1M of pre-orders... and this will likely double by say, the end of 2015.. now you tell me how much would it cost to get a couple of devs, writers & voice actors together to do some Wild Hunt quests / cinematics, re-visit the game endings (cause them slides suck bigtime) and do something about clarifying Geralt's f***in' amnesia..it's not like they have to start from scratch now...the engine is there..and I'm preeety sure, in regards to the Wild Hunt at least, there's already stuff that just didn't make it into the game (due to deadlines, technical issues etc.)...i know one of the closed doors demos they did actually dipped into a chunk of the main plot where Geralt actually chases down the Hunt, tries to find clues etc..

Or if TW2's sales made it possible for it to get an EE, TW3 can get 5+ EE
 
The way I see it, they might improve the villains of the Expansions, but no way they will add Wild Hunt content. If CDPR gave a huge "Wild Hunt" patch with new quests, dialogues, cutscenes all voice acted to flesh out the Wild Hunt, they would, by far, be the most awesome developers EVER.
 
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