It is good to see that they know and acknowledge this issue, I just find their decision (as of yet) to not fix this issue to be ridiculous.
It is good to see that they know and acknowledge this issue, I just find their decision (as of yet) to not fix this issue to be ridiculous.
i agree. i mean, we're not asking for a complete re-write of the entire third act. all we want is some tweaks here and there, plus a few quests relating to the wild hunt to to flesh them out as villains. and these quests in question, some of them were already made and cut out of the main game and that's it.
all this could improove tromendously the quality of the game as a whole.
i mean, if the Eredin and Co. had better character developments, and had a very strong and initimidating presence, people may have never complained about the third act in the first place !
why ? because there was an epic villain that brought the story to a higher level, thus making the whole experience much more satisfying.
At least they're admitting this, but words are not enough :bored:
http://stevivor.com/2015/11/cd-proj...hunt-and-lessons-learned-for-hearts-of-stone/
http://stevivor.com/2015/11/cd-proj...hunt-and-lessons-learned-for-hearts-of-stone/
I respect that and all but dude, they've delayed this game TWICE. And how many cookie-cutter contract quests, smuggler caches and free DLCs did they elect to invest their resources in rather than the actual narrative quality?
They're an independent company, they are the ones to be criticized.
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This->This->This
Yeah yeah...The smuggler caches everybody likes....:rant:
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That Novigrad arc was just so painfully long and everything but fun, I really don't understand the logic of giving more screentime to Dandelion (probably the most boring character in the game) and Novigrad crime bosses being a priority over fleshing out the main antagonists of the entire series.
But, I guess, it's nice to see that they're aware of the problem.
But, I guess, it's nice to see that they're aware of the problem.
It is also a bit puzzling, considering that if the work that went into "The Cat and the Wolf" and "Skellige's Most Wanted" was invested into new Wild Hunt content as free DLC, it would already have markedly improved the situation. Not that those two quests wouldn't be good, but such side-content does not really mend any of the game's shortcomings, at most it takes players' minds off the problems in the core narrative for a short while (not to mention all the generic treasure hunts).
CD Projekt RED does a commendable job of supporting The Witcher 3, but regardless of that and all the economic arguments, if a decent Enhanced Edition following in the footsteps of the previous two games does not come about (and chances seem to be looking thinner by the day), it will probably be an enormous let-down.
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To @ilayoeli , @Krull32 , and @saladin1701 : I'm none too pleased with the shortcomings of game either, myself, lest you mistakenly believe I'm defending the REDs blindly. There is much within the story which I feel they could have handled far better than they did. However, I chose to keep those opinions to myself, and instead rather sympathise with the individual artists, writers, programmers, and other designers, who likely had to see their ideas and creations never fully realised in the final game. This was doubtless a frustrating and unpleasant blow for them as humans. Criticism of the game's very obvious weaknesses has been very vocal and widespread, but, for a bit of a change, I choose to consider the personal disappointments the creative team very probably experienced, and not merely my own.
If people wish to continue criticism, do carry on. However, please, keep it respectful, humane, and constructive. Thank you.
If people wish to continue criticism, do carry on. However, please, keep it respectful, humane, and constructive. Thank you.
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I suspect those free DLC quests were already made before the game was released, so they were not necessarily prioritized over "fixing" the Wild Hunt.
If you are going to make a game with as strong a narrative as this one has, i.e. a very specific story akin to an interactive novel, you ensure the development of the game fits in with the creative content of the story, not vice versa. Yes, you might be able to do Skellige before Novigrad before Velen but you ensure that even if the player choses to play the segments out of sequence, the story still maintains its integrity and its characters are still developed.
This game is very, very good technically and is let down by plot hole after plot hole after plot hole. The writing in places is like it was written by twelve writers sitting in different rooms, writing their own different parts without the slightest bit of collaboration between them. As a result, many of the characters in the game have disjointed stories. No other story driven RPG I've ever played has ever suffered from this problem. Eredin is a symptom of this but he's only one of many.
There simply is no excuse for the antagonist of such a plot as this game has, to suffer such criminal lack of characterisation. By CDPR's own marketing material, you shouldn't need to read the books for the characters in this game to make sense.
Well, your choice,and i respect that. But in my eyes the wrong path...If every player make this, how would they know what they did wrong ? How can they learn ?
None of us made the opposite
Just legitimate criticism. And in this case, it's just a lot...but justified.
And as a developer you have to accept that players/customers shows them their mistakes.
Claims of legitimate criticism that are on their face abusive, such as "criminal lack of characterization", are not legitimate criticism at all. They only serve to show that such criticism is disrespectful and may safely be ignored. If you want your criticisms to be taken seriously, do not make them in such a bitter, badgering tone.
Moderator direction to keep criticism respectful, humane, and constructive should not result in dispute but result in other posters reviewing their criticisms more carefully to make them more constructive and less abusive.
True communication occurs only in an atmosphere of mutual respect, not one of self-proclaimed superiority and entitlement.
Moderator direction to keep criticism respectful, humane, and constructive should not result in dispute but result in other posters reviewing their criticisms more carefully to make them more constructive and less abusive.
True communication occurs only in an atmosphere of mutual respect, not one of self-proclaimed superiority and entitlement.
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I finished the game recently. Never played game with so much quality (GOTY for me for sure). That makes shortcomings of the main quest and 3rd act in particular so much more obvious. So many sidequests proved that CDPR had very good writers working on this game. Makes me wonder what really happened that we got THIS Eredin, Wild Hunt, White Frost? Luckily we got Ladies of The Wood, Forefather's Eve, Bloody Baron, Towerful of Mice and so much more as well. It really looks like they run out of time/had management problems.
With all due respect, I will have to strongly disagree with that. A "criminal lack of characterization" is referring to what certain gamers see as descriptive of this (rather essential) portion of the game's content. The majority of the comments thus far have been civil and articulate, so this seems like an unnecessary attempt to police people's opinions. It is clear that the majority of players commenting in this thread are dissatisfied with the amount of time and content that was dedicated to Eredin and the Wild Hunt in the game and most of them elaborate on their views in quite some detail. CD Projekt has obviously known about this for a long-long time, so why try to silence criticism under the pretense of calling for a civil discussion, when the discussion has been civil all along?
It's naive to expect that people who are deeply invested in a cultural product and are dissatisfied with some of its aspects will be voicing their opinions by singing odes. I get that moderators have to try and keep peace around these threads and that there is a need to be in line with some rules that CD Projekt RED set (no explicit threads about downgrade or claims about them having misled customers, etc.), but if this forum, CDPR, or its community can't handle the kind of criticism that has dominated most of this topic so far, then there is simply a strong double standard at play here.
But getting back on track, I found it curious that Hearts of Stone included a new Eredin card with a quote that was never used in the main game (although it's not the only example). Plus it seems to be referencing the Wild Hunt's abduction of children, something that was sadly also left entirely unexplored and could have made for great lore material:
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eredin-breacc-glas-the-treacherous-card.jpg
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Since so many who post here are very deeply interested and engaged in the lore of the games and the books -- commendable enthusiasm, I might add -- it is, however, sometimes necessary to offer a moderating caution, before their passions get the better of them, and lead them to posting a bit too vehemently. That has not yet quite been the case here, although phrases like "criminal lack of characterization" do verge perilously close to the limit of respectful criticism, as it suggests malicious wrong-doing.
However, the topic of this thread is not moderation. All such discussions thereon should be reserved for Private Message, please, as per the rules of the Forums.
To the topic at hand, the Wild Hunt is indeed underdeveloped in the game, and people are free to remark about the lack of content. However, I do not encourage people to spend too much effort hoping for a rewrite of this aspect of the game's story. While it would strengthen the narrative considerably, I would neither hold my breath, nor presume that stern criticism from the Community will bring about this sort of change. I personally would prefer to see a bit more compassion for the writing and quest-design teams, who had to bid farewell to their creative ideas in the service of releasing the product which we have now. Likewise, I would welcome a bit more respect for the still quite impressive work of art they actually managed to hand us, under the numerous constrains, which pressed upon them. However, it seems I'm in a very small minority, here. I query whether severe criticism is warranted for making the attempt at a reasonably coherent narrative, opposed to delaying the game again, or simply not releasing it at all. . . .
Mateusz Tomaszkiewicz mentioned in the PAX presentation that recording dialogues for the quests is the most expensive part of the development process. Considering that they must write, adapt, and record dialogue for seven languages, a large, and important quest, with many, and various, lines of dialogue would be very expensive. (Likewise, if attempting to fix it required developing a new mechanic for the game, the process becomes rather more expensive, and time-consuming, than it may appear to the casual observer.) If implementing such a quest undercut their vision for the game as a whole, say, cutting Skellige, for example, or limiting the number of dialogue options throughout the game in exchange, they mayn't have wanted to make that trade-off. If they truly care about their work, and their story -- and I've seen very little that suggests they don't -- the decision to cut any part of the game was likely a difficult one. It was their choice, however, and, unless they chose to redress it, it must be accepted, displease whom it may.
This is the extent of my interest upon this subject, and I choose not to invest any more of my time and energy in it. If anyone decides to respond to my comments, please, don't expect a reply.
Thank you, and carry on.
However, the topic of this thread is not moderation. All such discussions thereon should be reserved for Private Message, please, as per the rules of the Forums.
To the topic at hand, the Wild Hunt is indeed underdeveloped in the game, and people are free to remark about the lack of content. However, I do not encourage people to spend too much effort hoping for a rewrite of this aspect of the game's story. While it would strengthen the narrative considerably, I would neither hold my breath, nor presume that stern criticism from the Community will bring about this sort of change. I personally would prefer to see a bit more compassion for the writing and quest-design teams, who had to bid farewell to their creative ideas in the service of releasing the product which we have now. Likewise, I would welcome a bit more respect for the still quite impressive work of art they actually managed to hand us, under the numerous constrains, which pressed upon them. However, it seems I'm in a very small minority, here. I query whether severe criticism is warranted for making the attempt at a reasonably coherent narrative, opposed to delaying the game again, or simply not releasing it at all. . . .
Mateusz Tomaszkiewicz mentioned in the PAX presentation that recording dialogues for the quests is the most expensive part of the development process. Considering that they must write, adapt, and record dialogue for seven languages, a large, and important quest, with many, and various, lines of dialogue would be very expensive. (Likewise, if attempting to fix it required developing a new mechanic for the game, the process becomes rather more expensive, and time-consuming, than it may appear to the casual observer.) If implementing such a quest undercut their vision for the game as a whole, say, cutting Skellige, for example, or limiting the number of dialogue options throughout the game in exchange, they mayn't have wanted to make that trade-off. If they truly care about their work, and their story -- and I've seen very little that suggests they don't -- the decision to cut any part of the game was likely a difficult one. It was their choice, however, and, unless they chose to redress it, it must be accepted, displease whom it may.
This is the extent of my interest upon this subject, and I choose not to invest any more of my time and energy in it. If anyone decides to respond to my comments, please, don't expect a reply.
Thank you, and carry on.
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That line does exist in the game, you can see all Eredin dialogue - including some cut content - in this post. The line on the Gwent card is from a scene that was apparently cut, where Eredin fights Crach; in the game, only the end of that fight can be seen.
Eredin: Out of my way, old man… And I shall spare your life.
Crach: I dare you to take it instead.
Eredin: Hahahaha… As you will.
Eredin: Pathetic… simply pathetic.
Crach: Stop playing the warrior… Fight!
Eredin: You would die an honorable death, is that it? You will be disappointed.
Crach: Aaaargh!
Crach: Aaaaach!
Eredin: Any last words?
Crach: Haven't killed me yet.
Eredin: No. I'm enjoying this. You are my toy.
Crach: I dare you to take it instead.
Eredin: Hahahaha… As you will.
Eredin: Pathetic… simply pathetic.
Crach: Stop playing the warrior… Fight!
Eredin: You would die an honorable death, is that it? You will be disappointed.
Crach: Aaaargh!
Crach: Aaaaach!
Eredin: Any last words?
Crach: Haven't killed me yet.
Eredin: No. I'm enjoying this. You are my toy.
They have my respect. No doubt. And i said it a few times how much i like this game at all.
But a few Points ( this one for example) have a bit more criticism than other ones, because this have an huge impact to the entire game. Its also one of the biggest Issues for a some players. But they still like this game and are pleased with the work of the devs. Me too.
But, no matter how much i like this game , there are a few points i have to criticize. Thats normal....
Point A has nothing to do with point B, in my opinion. Not everybody maybe agree with it
Ah, I see, so the scene of their confrontation was cut short - probably that's why it felt so out of the blue in the game. Pity, I like its implications how much of a sadist Eredin is - which could have been his calling card. Anyway, thanks for the info!