Everything about weapons

[Sardukhar]

Definitely an idea well ahead of it's time. And who knows, maybe by 2077, they'll have worked out the bugs.

Already done in 2020. It's the Sternmeyer M-95 /CG-13, depending on which variant you use.

 

[RLKing1969]

Already done in 2020. It's the Sternmeyer M-95 /CG-13, depending on which variant you use.

Point taken. I had forgotten about that one.

 

[Suhiira]

Already done in 2020. It's the Sternmeyer M-95 /CG-13, depending on which variant you use.

Still haven't solved the basic problems with the bullpup design and caseless ammo tho.
OK, maybe they can solve the ammo problems by 2077, but the bullpup design issues are inherent in the design itself.

 

[Sardukhar]

Still haven't solved the basic problems with the bullpup design and caseless ammo tho.
OK, maybe they can solve the ammo problems by 2077, but the bullpup design issues are inherent in the design itself.

What bullpup design issues? My RFB is fine? COuldn't find any G11 issues that weren't fixed. Cost-based is the reason it didn't hit main production.

And in game terms, they have solved it - no affect on gameplay for any of the many bullpup rifles in-game.

 

[Suhiira]

What bullpup design issues?

Bullpup designs are mechanically more complex, requiring a long trigger linkage, and control system linkages. This seriously degrades both control feel, and reliability, and increases bulk and weight.

If a bullpup has a catastrophic failure, instead of the explosion being six or eight inches in front of your eyes, it's right at your eyesocket, or touching your cheekbone or ear.

Most bullpups also eject hot brass, and vent hot gasses in the vicinity of your eyes and ears.

Mag changes on most bullpups are slower (sometimes much slower) because they require more repositioning, that positioning can be awkward.
More importantly a human being can naturally bring their hands together in the dark. As a basic design guideline, magwells should either be in your dominant hand, or just in front of it; because it is far more difficult to manipulate anything dexterously that is located behind your dominant hand.

Because of the positioning of the magazine (usually the part of a gun extending lowest) close to your shoulder when the weapon is mounted, bullpups can be difficult to fire while prone.

The magazine is by far the lowest point of the rifle; and being located behind the dominant hand and close to your shoulder; when you drop prone it will tend to strike the ground forcing the muzzle downward. This can also cause problems with mags being warped, ripped out of the magwell, having the baseplate broken off, or the rifle itself being ripped out of the users hand when hitting the deck.

A conventional rifle with a long magazine can have issues with dropping prone as well, but because the mag is positioned forward of the dominant hand, instead of forcing the muzzle down, it will tend to force the muzzle up; and though it's not advisable to use the magazine as a monopod, it's possible. With a bullpup, it isn't.

Charging the rifle and manipulating the operating handle is often more difficult, and sometimes can't be done without dismounting the rifle, or reaching over the rifle with your support hand.

Most bullpups can only be operated from the right shoulder; or if switchable, can only be operated from one shoulder without being reconfigured (this is changing, with the adoption of forward ejection mechanisms).

Because of the way most bullpups eject their brass, and cycle their actions; attempting to operate the weapon from the wrong shoulder will result in hot brass being ejected directly into your face, and possibly injuring the user... or they my simply not be able to cycle at all.

Bullpups are naturally balanced in a non-instinctive way.
The balance point on most bullpups is in between your hand and your shoulder when mounted, which is unnatural. We have a natural tendency to try to balance things between our hands, not between our hand and shoulder. This balance will tend to make a bullpup tend to shift its butt under recoil, unless it is very tightly mounted to your shoulder; particularly during rapid fire. This tendency is somewhat countered by the position of your support hand so far forward on the barrel, by the fact that the overall leverage moment of the muzzle is lower (the muzzle isn't as far from either your shoulder, or your dominant hand), and by the fact that most bullpups have straightline recoil.

##########

Again, I love them in concept, but from a practical perspective they have issues. This is why they have not been adopted more widely and some nations that have adopted bullpup design are reverting back to conventional ones.

Yes, many of these problems are solvable, but not all of them.
Like what you like, but don't ignore inconvenient facts.

 

[Sardukhar]

Yes, many of these problems are solvable, but not all of them.
Like what you like, but don't ignore inconvenient facts.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Solved, in the RFB for example, and the Tavor. And in Cpunk, perhaps solved the same way. Nearly everything you raised hasn't been an issue with my RFB or my instructor's Tavor when he was in the IDF. Although he does mutter angrily about the Tavor...and really likes the smaller variant. Go figure.

Being hard to fire prone is not an issue - the mag is in line with the action just as in an AR platform. The issue is checking and clearing said action - little more awkward. When I drop prone, my mag doesn't hit easier than an AR...I find the AR tends to dip and tap before a bullpup that is sitting just forward of my shoulder.

You're got a lot of "usually" whereas modern bullpups have solved many or most of those problems. Certainly the charging handle on my RFB is easy-peasy to use and, hey, handy bonus can be easily ambidextrous.

Most of these are user-based issues, not really challenging. Israelis have issues with the Tavor, but not more so than an AR platform.

As soon as someone says "should be" about things that aren't - like magwell seating - it shows a prejudice.

I've seen people ardently defend AR and AK platforms as if they were error-free. They aren't - and nor are they the perfect solution.

So I'd have to say most of your facts are no longer relevant on at least two modern bullpup platforms, one of which sees crazy amounts of use every day.

 

[RLKing1969]

Great questions!

• Hmmm... I'm not sure I understand this one. Do you mean art direction, or functionality?
• I'd love to see a lot of concealable weapons, sticking with the theme of the high-tech cyberpunk universe. Blades hidden within your clothes, or the arm-blade scythe things we saw from the woman in the trailer. Pistols that are almost completely silent (I'm pretty sure 60 years from now we'll have figured out the whole "true silencer" thing), maybe a few thermal weapons that don't rely on ammo to function. "High tech" weapons that can screw with opponent implants - say, maybe you hack into their arm blades and slice them up with them, that sort of thing. Ultimately, I'd like to see a lot of ultra-deadly weapons, that require great skill to take full advantage of.
• This is a tough one. On one hand, I think shooting mechanics like GTA V worked well, but on the other hand, this is an RPG that is based on a very gritty, realistic tabletop game. You can't walk through bullet fire from 3 enemies and expect to survive in the Cyberpunk world, at least not as you could in a game like GTA. So, aiming and gunplay would either need to be lightning fast and deadly, or slower, more methodical and deliberate. I really don't have a good answer for this, it's tough.

And consider it either pure skill or luck (or BOTH!) if you walk out of a dust down alive...In other words, the way it SHOULD be. Which leads us to a very good point about combat and perhaps, some food for thought for the gang at CDPR. Consider this: Why do we consider combat vets (a.k.a: Solos) to be such bad asses? well, for one, TRAINING and EXPERIENCE. Most "civies" don't know JACK about handing the stress of having someone wanting to seriously put an end to your existence. That is where a solo (a.k.a: A combat vet) really shines. Here's a real to life example: Did you know that when an average person hears gunfire or an explosion, that their first reaction is to stand there looking around and waiting to get shot/blown up? It's true. The human instinct is to look around and see what is going on instead of "hitting the dirt" and worrying about the details later. Solos (and any soldier worth their salt) ahs already been trained to get down low and, hopefully avoid the incoming salvo of shit that is intended to turn them into so much Kibble concentrate #5. Just saying.

 

[eraser7278]

one of which sees crazy amounts of use every day.

since you're basing all this on the performance of your particular rifle, would you mind defining "crazy amounts of use?" To me that would indicate thousands of rounds between cleanings and zero stoppages, but I'd like to establish your baseline before continuing.

 

[RLKing1969]

Yep. That's even part of the PnP - new weapons come along, variants of old weapons and old weapons still in play.

By 2077, well, should be interesting.

To quote an old cyberpunk phrase: "The street finds a use for everything..."

 

[Suhiira]

Everyone needs to keep in mind that like your preference in personal cars everyone has their preference in firearms.
There is no "right" or "wrong", only personal preference.

 

[Sardukhar]

since you're basing all this on the performance of your particular rifle, would you mind defining "crazy amounts of use?" To me that would indicate thousands of rounds between cleanings and zero stoppages, but I'd like to establish your baseline before continuing.

No, I'm speaking of the Tavor. As for myself, 82 million rounds fired. And a half round.

Edit: I feel I should make it clear I don't think the bullpup design is, overall, -better- than a traditional mag-forward design, or the AR or AK or G or whatever platforms. It's different. Some advantages, some disadvantages.

I like it because it's cool, because it's a new thing to learn and mostly, because I can get a small .308 Win rifle that's legal to truck around in Canada. And it -is- ridiculously small for a .308 Win. Whereas the AR platforms are restricted and the AK platforms are prohibited, the RFB is neither.

 

[Suhiira]

I like it because it's cool, because it's a new thing to learn and mostly, because I can get a small .308 Win rifle that's legal to truck around in Canada. And it -is- ridiculously small for a .308 Win. Whereas the AR platforms are restricted and the AK platforms are prohibited, the RFB is neither.

Now here you make a perfectly valid argument for a preference for the bullpup design. Gun grabbing politicians aren't smart enough to realize they're (in a functional sense) exactly the same as the "assault" weapons they just banned.

 

[Sardukhar]

Now here you make a perfectly valid argument for a preference for the bullpup design. Gun grabbing politicians aren't smart enough to realize they're (in a functional sense) exactly the same as the "assault" weapons they just banned.

Oh, it's truly hilarious. I was at the gun store the other day looking at a restricted AR-10. Same calibre as mine, much easier to spot carried around and waaay heavier. Restricted. I'm a fan of gun control, but c'mon. Some common sense here idjits.

That said, I've always taken Cyberpunk's Concealment ratings, although very valuable, also pretty modifiable - and dependent on how clever the player gets.

This is to different degrees of Awareness of course. But a clever player who puts a Heavy pistol inside a tablet should be fine from cursory inspection - likewise those who add suppressors and drum mags to a battle-rifle should not only be Not Concealable, but actually attract attention.

 

[eraser7278]

you know what's funny, I have a bunch of guns I need to register as "assault" weapons later this year. The funny part is I've got a Yugoslavian SKS that was in all probability used to commit ethnic cleansing... not considered an "evil" rifle. the Russian mosin nagant that killed fascist and communist alike, not evil. the Finnish M39 that killed plenty of our russian "allies" in ww2, not evil.

some fools are all about looks over logic, but did they ever think to stop and ask whether my ar15(s) identifies as an assault rifle?

 

[eraser7278]

Oh, it's truly hilarious. I was at the gun store the other day looking at a restricted AR-10. Same calibre as mine, much easier to spot carried around and waaay heavier. Restricted. I'm a fan of gun control, but c'mon. Some common sense here idjits.

Canadian laws ARE weird. like apparently anything AK based is banned, but anything M14 based gets a free pass... which brings us to this abortion of a rifle.

That said, I've always taken Cyberpunk's Concealment ratings, although very valuable, also pretty modifiable - and dependent on how clever the player gets. This is to different degrees of Awareness of course. But a clever player who puts a Heavy pistol inside a tablet should be fine from cursory inspection - likewise those who add suppressors and drum mags to a battle-rifle should not only be Not Concealable, but actually attract attention.

there's also no account given for making something more hidden at the expense of it being slower to deploy. pop the takedown pins on an AR and you can fit that in a moderate sized pack, it'll just cost you 2 combat rounds to slap it together. you can hide a folding stock AK quite well in a tennis racket case... once you take the mag out, etc.

 

[Sardukhar]

there's also no account given for making something more hidden at the expense of it being slower to deploy. pop the takedown pins on an AR and you can fit that in a moderate sized pack, it'll just cost you 2 combat rounds to slap it together. you can hide a folding stock AK quite well in a tennis racket case... once you take the mag out, etc.

Mmm. All excellent points. Things a Ref can easily take into account, for or against you. Or could be coded into a CRPG...

 

[Suhiira]

That said, I've always taken Cyberpunk's Concealment ratings, although very valuable, also pretty modifiable - and dependent on how clever the player gets.

This is to different degrees of Awareness of course. But a clever player who puts a Heavy pistol inside a tablet should be fine from cursory inspection - likewise those who add suppressors and drum mags to a battle-rifle should not only be Not Concealable, but actually attract attention.

Yep, that's one (of the many) areas where a human GM can adjust things as needed.

there's also no account given for making something more hidden at the expense of it being slower to deploy. pop the takedown pins on an AR and you can fit that in a moderate sized pack, it'll just cost you 2 combat rounds to slap it together. you can hide a folding stock AK quite well in a tennis racket case... once you take the mag out, etc.

As Sardukhar said, good points.

you know what's funny, I have a bunch of guns I need to register as "assault" weapons later this year.

One of the reasons I currently live in Utah.
Not quite "Everyone and their grandma is packing." as Texas the gun laws here are pretty reasonable.

 

[RLKing1969]

Canadian laws ARE weird. like apparently anything AK based is banned, but anything M14 based gets a free pass... which brings us to this abortion of a rifle.



Hey, M-14's are good, solid old weapons. In my humble opinion, the only thing that that old M-14 pictured needs is to ditch the heavy assed wood furniture and go with lighter composites.

























there's also no account given for making something more hidden at the expense of it being slower to deploy. pop the takedown pins on an AR and you can fit that in a moderate sized pack, it'll just cost you 2 combat rounds to slap it together. you can hide a folding stock AK quite well in a tennis racket case... once you take the mag out, etc.

 

[eraser7278]

Hey, M-14's are good, solid old weapons. In my humble opinion, the only thing that that old M-14 pictured needs is to ditch the heavy assed wood furniture and go with lighter composites.

it is a synthetic stock, but even with that it's tilting the scales at over 10lbs and commands a price of 800 beaver pelts
http://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/norinco-m14-m305-a-7-62x39-18-6.html

for that price an enterprising frostback could buy themselves 4 SKS rifles built in the same NORINCO factory! they also tip the scales at 8lbs, and you could shave another lb off that by swapping to a tapco stock and ditching the bayonet.
http://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/chinese-type-56-sks-7-62x39-20.html

also, can't help but bitch about being denied the opportunity to purchase a $550 M14... damn import bans
http://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/norinco-m14-m305-308-win-22.html

 

[RLKing1969]

it is a synthetic stock, but even with that it's tilting the scales at over 10lbs and commands a price of 800 beaver pelts
http://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/norinco-m14-m305-a-7-62x39-18-6.html

for that price an enterprising frostback could buy themselves 4 SKS rifles built in the same NORINCO factory! they also tip the scales at 8lbs, and you could shave another lb off that by swapping to a tapco stock and ditching the bayonet.
http://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/chinese-type-56-sks-7-62x39-20.html

also, can't help but bitch about being denied the opportunity to purchase a $550 M14... damn import bans
http://www.firearmsoutletcanada.com/norinco-m14-m305-308-win-22.html

Not a big fan of the SKS. I'm an American, so I guess I am partial to the old Garand frame. To each their own though.