eraser7278;n10170242 said:
I concur. It seems to be lacking a weapons related theme.
I concur. It seems to be lacking a weapons related theme.
eraser7278;n10170242 said:
Shut up, you, we're having a good conversation.
eraser7278;n10170242 said:
RLKing1969;n10170292 said:
Snowflakez;n10170342 said:Shut up, you, we're having a good conversation.
Also and more importantly, some OT is fine as long as it wanders back and stays on thread.
Death and combat are closely enough related to weapons, it's no problem. Same for stealth.
That said and passive-aggressive link-posting aside, it would be good to hew closer to the weapons topic.
On that note, in CP2020, Martial Arts is very deadly since it lets you add your skill to your damage. Melee skill does not. Some house rules and Pacific Rim supplement amend this to allow either Martial Arts using certain weapons or simply Melee skill to add to damage.
Shouuuuld that follow through in 2077? Do you want melee weapons to add player skill to damage? Be aware that melee weapons in 2020 can be pretty deadly as-is.
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/me straps spiked shin guards over top of his kickboxing champion's hydrolic powered cyber legs. proceeds to kick things to death with the same damage output as an anti-material rifle.
if only they came in mono-edge... guess we need to kidnap a mono-moleculear scientist and force him to build us some!
but in all seriousness I hope they tone it down to a more sane level the way IU did, halving the skill bonus to damage and lowering the body mod.
but in all seriousness I hope they tone it down to a more sane level the way IU did, halving the skill bonus to damage and lowering the body mod.
I'd really rather not see CP2077 turned into a cheap Kung Fu movie.Sardukhar;n10170682 said:
Frankly that was one part of the base rules that never made the slightest bit of sense to me. Everything was pretty much reality based ... then you had that whole martial arts thing.
So no ... Martial Arts ... and Melee skills should certainly increase your change to hit, and perhaps decrease your chance to be hit (in melee), but make you hit like Superman? No ... just no.
Suhiira;n10171112 said:
Don't forget they can also make you a world class EMT thanks to that "learning how to break the human body helps you heal it" BS
I just hope the other balance factor from 2020 comes into play... if you're more than 2 combat rounds of movement away and try to melee attack someone armed with a gun, that scenario ends with you dead/dying 99 times out of 100. We had one rather slow player back in the day die in this fashion repeatedly because he was under the delusion he was playing an anime and not motherfucking CYBERPUNK.
Sure, but user skill absolutely plays a part in effective your hands and weapons are. Unless you want to have more focussed called-shot rules? Even so, people that know -how- to hit, hit very, very much harder than those who don't. It's not like a firearm..technique really plays a part.
I'd also prefer to see some kind of reduced-but-still- effective bonus like in IU. That's Interlock Unlimited, an improved version of the FNFF rules, in case anyone wonders.
Even without the MA bonus, the hydraulic rams/cyberlegs/spike heel combo is crazy dangerous. That's not Kung Fu, that's power/weapon combos. Hell, someone with a Battlefist, Rams and Wolvers is doing better damage, untrained, than an expert striker with years of practice. IIRC.
I'd also prefer to see some kind of reduced-but-still- effective bonus like in IU. That's Interlock Unlimited, an improved version of the FNFF rules, in case anyone wonders.
Even without the MA bonus, the hydraulic rams/cyberlegs/spike heel combo is crazy dangerous. That's not Kung Fu, that's power/weapon combos. Hell, someone with a Battlefist, Rams and Wolvers is doing better damage, untrained, than an expert striker with years of practice. IIRC.
I'm pretty sure a trained martial artist is going to hit a hell of a lot harder than somebody who doesn't know the first thing about it.
Understanding your body, and how to use your own weight and momentum effectively, is at the core of martial arts training. Nobody is saying the game needs to be a kung fu movie... but there's nothing wrong with a damage increase, nor do I feel it's all that unrealistic.
I didn't even think about hand-to-hand/martial arts combat in 2077 - I'd love to see it, though. I only ever thought of actual melee weapons. Hopefully it's something they translate over to the game.
Understanding your body, and how to use your own weight and momentum effectively, is at the core of martial arts training. Nobody is saying the game needs to be a kung fu movie... but there's nothing wrong with a damage increase, nor do I feel it's all that unrealistic.
I didn't even think about hand-to-hand/martial arts combat in 2077 - I'd love to see it, though. I only ever thought of actual melee weapons. Hopefully it's something they translate over to the game.
Melee and HtH *only" characters should be viable builds, but not in the sense that whoever can handle what ever and everybody's happy. No. The player needs to be responsible and accept that being a martial arts master but knowing next to nothing about firearms necessarily forefeits some content (while on the flipside, it might open something not otherwise obtainable) from him and that he needs to choose his fights extra carefully or be super stealthy.
I remember when we still played 2020, how hopeless I felt against a single revolver thug with my not-so-combatitive Corp whthout any gear. I was super lucky because he missed twice and I - not having any weapons - threw a golden pocket watch at him and it was heavy enough that it just happened to knock him out of his feet giving me a chance to escape (it didn't go well from there, though, as I stole a nearby copcar and crashed it because I couldn't drive for shit).
I kinda wish something like that was possible in CP2077. To "weaponize" something in your pocket as a last panic ridden attempt at survival.
I remember when we still played 2020, how hopeless I felt against a single revolver thug with my not-so-combatitive Corp whthout any gear. I was super lucky because he missed twice and I - not having any weapons - threw a golden pocket watch at him and it was heavy enough that it just happened to knock him out of his feet giving me a chance to escape (it didn't go well from there, though, as I stole a nearby copcar and crashed it because I couldn't drive for shit).
I kinda wish something like that was possible in CP2077. To "weaponize" something in your pocket as a last panic ridden attempt at survival.
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Aye, I agree with this. Not saying I need to be able to 1v8 as a martial artist against dudes with guns, but it should absolutely be viable and not be made impossible just "becauze realizm".kofeiiniturpa;n10174772 said:
kofeiiniturpa;n10174772 said:
Not impossible, but yeah, unfortunately it probably won't happen. Same thing happens in D&D. That sort of thing is -- as of right now, in the current state of gaming -- almost exclusive to PnPs. It's sad, because improvisation and working with what you have is some of the most fun you can have in any interactive medium.
Snowflakez;n10174922 said:
Drives home the point that we might have the "low-life" of cyberpunk today, but certainly not the "High-tech" we all imagine if we can't program weaponizing a ball-point pen or something.
Snowflakez;n10174922 said:
I'm leery making melee/HTH only a viable option for players because once the systems are altered to allow for that, it's just one extra step for NPC's to start making use of such builds. I don't want your fun coming at the cost of my immersion, and the immersion of cyberpunk comes from that realism.
eraser7278;n10176502 said:
Goes both ways. I don't want your immersion to come at the cost of my fun!
I'm being facetious, of course. I understand how important realism and immersion is to this setting, and to the universe already established by Mike Pondsmith. I'd never argue otherwise.
However, if it can be done in the PnP as a viable way of handling combat, it should be a viable way of handling combat in the video game.
Furthermore, if I want to gimp myself and make the game a hell of a lot harder by utilizing that strategy, that's nobody's business but my own. The game does not (and probably cannot) be balanced around every build, let alone a purely fisticuffs one. But it should be possible. It's OK if some situations require finangling or very, very careful thinking to survive. It's OK if those situations are 10-20x easier to get through with a gun, or other forms of weaponry.
My strategy does not need to affect yours, and the game does not need to be altered in any significant way to allow for it.
As an example, you can play through the Thief games with a focus on combat. It's very, very difficult and the game is absolutely balanced around stealth, but it's possible. Similarly, you could play the entirety of the Witcher 3 without using silver swords, or without using signs, or without using skills, and you can play through Skyrim by punching dragons (without using the perks that buff it).
I know these are not the best examples of the sort of RPG a lot of us want in 2077, just trying to explain that a dev doesn't need to ruin the "real" playstyles by making fun ones possible.
Hope that made sense.
I'm not saying when you try to equip a knife the game should slap your hand and auto-equip a gun for you. What I'm worried is that fundamental game mechanics will change in order to allow for melee only play. I have in mind the modern fallout games where you can do a fists only play-through because of 1) enemy weapons scaling by level, 2) an ever increasing pool of hit-points and 3) magical instant healing stimpacks. I've messed around with melee runs on missions, but the fact I could eat several shotgun blasts to the face while closing the distance kinda killed it for me.
Yes, someone skilled at unarmed combat (be it boxing, street-fighting, or a formal martial art) will know how to use strike for better effect then someone untrained.Sardukhar;n10171562 said:
The problem is, as written, "Brawling" (CP2020 pg 50) gives no bonus damage no matter how skilled you are ... you hit for 1d6/2 bludgeoning damage modified by your BTM (-2 to +8) thus 1 (minimum) to 11, averaging around 1-4. Now use one of the "Martial Arts" (CP2020 pg 51) there is an automatic "to hit bonus" for using a "key attack' (CP2020 pg 100) and ALL attacks add your skill level (1-10) to the damage done (CP2020 pg 51) thus you now hit for 1d6/2 modified by BTM (-2 to +8) modified by your skill in your Marital Art (1-10) for 1 (minimum) to 21, averaging around 3-9.
Given that a switchblade does 1d6/2, a knife 1d6, and brass knuckles 1d6+2 ... and as written none of these weapons add your BTM bonus nor any bonus for skill to their damage. Only a fool would use a melee weapon ... unarmed Martial Arts is far and away superior.
But wait ...
Then why do many Martial Arts feature the use of various weapons (example: nunchaku) if the bare hand is far more dangerous?
So yes ...
I have "issues" with the rules as written.
Certainly a good start.Sardukhar;n10171562 said:
Well ... yeah ...Sardukhar;n10171562 said:
Getting hit by a sledgehammer or a hydraulic ram certainly ought to be crazy dangerous. But there's a price to be paid in terms of $ and/or Humanity and/or concealability that doesn't exist for Martial Arts.
As a side note ... your Cyber Strike with a hydraulic ram does 2d6 ... so is one to assume a Martial Arts strike does say 13 damage can also punch thru concrete walls?
I certainly agree that all the rules need to apply to both characters and NPCs.eraser7278;n10176502 said:
And I keep saying ... CP2077 should be Science Fiction not Science Fantasy.
Shadowrun is a perfectly good "cyberpunk" science fantasy game, we don't need another.
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Suhiira;n10176792 said:
think you missed p112
but yes, the wheels really came off when PacRim started letting you add your martial arts damage bonus to weapon attacks. not to mention that the weapon could have a mono edge, making armor only 1/3 as effective... or all the biowear to boost your body type... or the cyber weapons paired with hydrolic limbs STILL getting to add a martial art bonus on top of it. I've got issues with it as well, but most of the time they could be overcome by staying a few meters away and putting a rifle burst into their chest.
Suhiira;n10176792 said:
6D6, actually. Before the Wolvers damage.
Concrete block wall is SP 10.
So either will penetrate, but your MA 10 ( Grandmaster level) who rolls maximum damage on his punch and does 13 damage ( before strength bonus mind you) could actually punch through..if his fist could take the damage of hitting the wall.
A Battleglove with rams will do 36 damage on a maximum damage roll..
Remember that's the same SP as a car door, so it's a pretty thin concrete block - the hollow ones.
A stone wall is SP 30. No chance for the Grandmaster, Battleglove on max damage will just get through. Average damage of 20...glove will not even come close.
"Brawling" is the technique-free , swing-your-fists-like-mad style. I have no real problem with it having few or no bonuses.
I see eraser already corrected the damage to melee thing.
I don't think any "build" should be viable - they should all be situational. 0 points in Human Perception should -suck- as much as 0 points in HtH or Melee.
Aim to avoid min-maxing. Carry a knife.
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