Everything about weapons

[Snowflakez]

I'm not saying when you try to equip a knife the game should slap your hand and auto-equip a gun for you. What I'm worried is that fundamental game mechanics will change in order to allow for melee only play. I have in mind the modern fallout games where you can do a fists only play-through because of 1) enemy weapons scaling by level, 2) an ever increasing pool of hit-points and 3) magical instant healing stimpacks. I've messed around with melee runs on missions, but the fact I could eat several shotgun blasts to the face while closing the distance kinda killed it for me.

I get those fears. But CP2077 will undoubtedly be a very different game than Fallout. I don't claim to know how the scaling (if it exists at all) will work, but Fallout 4 is a sandbox open world RPG with an emphasis on freedom over story and realism, so we're sort of comparing apples and oranges. Melee-only play is allowed and effective because of perks. Perks that reduce incoming weapon damage. Perks that increase melee damage. Weapons that offer straight damage bonuses. Perks that give you special melee abilities. None of that really needs to exist in 2077.

That said, try playing on any difficulty other than normal or easy and tell me you can run into a shotgun-wielding raider's face without very, very heavy armor or damage-reducing/dodge-related perks. Doesn't work, in my experience - I get rekt every time. Obviously, level comes into play here, but that's just the type of RPG FO4 is. A lot of us hope CP2077 is a level-less RPG where everyone and everything is dangerous at all times.

I'm OK with shotguns doing a fuck-ton of damage to me as a melee player in 2077. I'm OK with dying repeatedly to them. It's realistic. But figuring out ways around a situation, trying new things and experimenting beyond what the developer strictly intend for a situation... That's at the core of what I enjoy from video games, RPG or otherwise. Realistic or otherwise. They don't need to make it optimal in 7/10 or even 6/10 situations, they just need to make it exist and give it enough development resources that its worth playing with.

 

[eraser7278]

and then there's your spiked foot combo from earlier where the leg does 6D6, the foot adds another 2D6 and makes the whole thing AP. then your martial art adds a flat 10 points of damage, because of course you maxed it out, and your body adds another +8 because you're cybered to the gills. so 8D6+18AP, for 46 damage on average... those Russian soldiers in SOF2 wern't kidding about being able to kick in the door of a BMP

 

[Sardukhar]

those Russian soldiers in SOF2 wern't kidding about being able to kick in the door of a BMP

Remember the story in SoF 1 talking about the young Russian kids with Wolvers and slick cyberware chopping up that Russian 'Psycho? All speed, technique and tech over brute force?

Hrm. I wonder if we'll see the Soviet-style weapons and cyber or just the US/Euro/Japanese ones? I do love me an AN-94.

 

[eraser7278]

well of course we'll get soviet style weapons, it helps draw the destinction between the clunky but functional russian guns and the sleek yet finicky European guns.

it's not like the Japanese are going to build something as ugly and overpowered as this.

 

[Suhiira]

So either will penetrate, but your MA 10 ( Grandmaster level) who rolls maximum damage on his punch and does 13 damage ( before strength bonus mind you) could actually punch through..if his fist could take the damage of hitting the wall.

And here you point out an important ... vital ... factor any competent human GM will take into account ... and almost no video game will.
GrandMaster breaking his hand on that concrete block wall.
Don't think I've ever seen a video game take the relative durability of an attacking weapon vs the durability of the target into account.

"Brawling" is the technique-free , swing-your-fists-like-mad style. I have no real problem with it having few or no bonuses.

I take it you've never been in a classic "Bar Brawl"?
As a former law enforcement type I've been in more then I care to recall. And while a pro boxer or Martial Artist would justifiably consider the "technique" unskilled (for the most part) I assure you the damage inflicted can be no less dangerous, or deadly.

In fact that's how I lost my voice. Took a punch to the throat that collapsed my windpipe, as I was busy turning blue a young Corpsman (Navy medic) did an emergency tracheotomy so I could breath, unfortunately he made the incision in the wrong place and severed my larynx. So, OK, I need a vibrator to talk these days (and I sound like Robbie the Robot), it beats the hell out of suffocation.

Aim to avoid min-maxing. Carry a knife.

Handy things knives, if you know what you're doing with them.
Damn useful at general purpose tools as well!

 

[Snowflakez]

And here you point out an important ... vital ... factor any competent human GM will take into account ... and almost no video game will.
GrandMaster breaking his hand on that concrete block wall.
Don't think I've ever seen a video game take the relative durability of an attacking weapon vs the durability of the target into account.


I take it you've never been in a classic "Bar Brawl"?
As a former law enforcement type I've been in more then I care to recall. And while a pro boxer or Martial Artist would justifiably consider the "technique" unskilled (for the most part) I assure you the damage inflicted can be no less dangerous, or deadly.

In fact that's how I lost my voice. Took a punch to the throat that collapsed my windpipe, as I was busy turning blue a young Corpsman (Navy medic) did an emergency tracheotomy so I could breath, unfortunately he made the incision in the wrong place and severed my larynx. So, OK, I need a vibrator to talk these days (and I sound like Robbie the Robot), it beats the hell out of suffocation.


Handy things knives, if you know what you're doing with them.
Damn useful at general purpose tools as well!

Ouch. Sorry to hear that. Glad I never became a cop like I wanted to in my teens. I don't have the stomach for that sort of thing. Hope you got a nice pension, at least?

As far as CP's handling of fisticuffs goes, I don't think there's much harm (if any) in stretching the limits of reality just a bit for the sake of more fun, is there? Most things in the CP universe seem to be quite realistic. What's the harm in a little kung fu fighting doing extra damage? Small, optional things like that never hinder my immersion significantly.

That said, personally I don't actually think it's going to be in the game at all. I mean, the Witcher 3 only really had 2 types of combat - signs and swords - and that was with a very large budget. Granted, a lot of time, resources and effort went into other aspects of the game too, but we can probably expect most of those other things to be present here as well. So I'm wondering where the compromise will be.

In the CP universe, you have brawling, kung fu (which would definitely require its own set of animations), guns, melee weapons (many of which will, again, probably require their own set of animations), so on and so forth. Not pooping on anyone's ideas, just my personal thoughts on the topic - if 2077 can't possibly include all of those (IMO) and I had to choose a system to cut, it'd probably be martial arts.

 

[Suhiira]

As far as CP's handling of fisticuffs goes, I don't think there's much harm (if any) in stretching the limits of reality just a bit for the sake of more fun, is there? Most things in the CP universe seem to be quite realistic. What's the harm in a little kung fu fighting doing extra damage? Small, optional things like that never hinder my immersion significantly.

One or two such items would be fine ... trouble is ... as always ... where do you draw the line?
If we have Kung Fu Masters punching thru brick walls we may as well have man portable bulletproof armor light enough they can perform ninja acrobatics in ... or just let then bodge bullets ... so they can get close enough to punch out the guy with the SMG. But we'll also include man portable lasers since while Kung Fu Master can dodge bullets even he isn't faster then the speed of light, and ... and ... and ...

Draw the line in a very easy to define place ... reality.

That said, personally I don't actually think it's going to be in the game at all. I mean, the Witcher 3 only really had 2 types of combat - signs and swords - and that was with a very large budget. Granted, a lot of time, resources and effort went into other aspects of the game too, but we can probably expect most of those other things to be present here as well. So I'm wondering where the compromise will be.

In the CP universe, you have brawling, kung fu (which would definitely require its own set of animations), guns, melee weapons (many of which will, again, probably require their own set of animations), so on and so forth. Not pooping on anyone's ideas, just my personal thoughts on the topic - if 2077 can't possibly include all of those (IMO) and I had to choose a system to cut, it'd probably be martial arts.

While I certainly wouldn't expect Street Fighter, Dark Souls, or Call of Duty quality of any other above there's really no reason they can't all be represented to a fair degree of accuracy.

 

[Sardukhar]

I take it you've never been in a classic "Bar Brawl"?
As a former law enforcement type I've been in more then I care to recall. And while a pro boxer or Martial Artist would justifiably consider the "technique" unskilled (for the most part) I assure you the damage inflicted can be no less dangerous, or deadly.

Crappy about the throat.

Only fights I've been in are street fights (except sparring matches, which hardly count). And an untrained fighter is way less effective doing the same thing than he or she is after training. Which is all that Martial Arts, which represents Boxing, Savate, Wrestling, purports to do.

These days, most people who fight have had some kind of training. MMA, kickboxing, boxing, some guy showing them how to hook and jab properly. Whatever.

My issue is more that, should that also apply to weapons? In CP2077. I'm inclined to say yes, although probably not huge bonuses. Rather see some kind of targeted-hit system made easier by skill levels, plus a small damage bonus.

 

[Suhiira]

My issue is more that, should that also apply to weapons? In CP2077. I'm inclined to say yes, although probably not huge bonuses. Rather see some kind of targeted-hit system made easier by skill levels, plus a small damage bonus.

Really depends on the specific Art and weapon. Many styles, while they may incorporate weapons it's ONLY at their advanced rankings, other styles (Boxing, Judo. Wrestling) are totally weapons free.

And again, it's not that I have an issue with a minor damage bonus for a trained Artist (or anyone trained in an unarmed style), say +1 at lv 2, +1 more at lv 6 and a final +1 at lv 10. It's the one-for-one I find incredibly difficult to swallow. And you yourself said you felt it was a bit over-the-top. Give them a +1 to HIT per level in their unarmed skill, sure, they're experts after all, but it doesn't make their bare fist as lethal as sledge hammer (and of course 10x as quick since it's not a sledge hammer).

 

[Sardukhar]

but it doesn't make their bare fist as lethal as sledge hammer .

No, no it doesn't. I like IU's half-damage per level, works fine.

Do that with weapons as well?

 

[Snowflakez]

Small bonuses sound reasonable to me. Not familiar with how H2H works in the PnP, but do you unlock "maneuvers" or anything of the sort as you get better at martial arts? Not necessarily hard, RAW (rules as written, as I realize this can have two meanings in this context) maneuvers, but anything that represents you learning how to do more with a given fighting style between level 1 and 10?

One thing I do appreciate about CP2020, from what I understand so far, is that you can just practice and get better at doing things. If you want to become a martial artist, it sounds like you can, given enough time and practice, without compromising your entire set of class abilities and features.

In D&D, however, a ranger can never learn a monk's fighting styles unless they multiclass, and that comes with some nasty drawback and doesn't really make sense a lot of times.

 

[Suhiira]

No, no it doesn't. I like IU's half-damage per level, works fine.

Do that with weapons as well?

Probably ... if ... and only if ... you specifically study and train with that specific style of weapon.
It stands to reason a trained Samauri knows how to use their katana (and their bow ... something many forget) better then someone just using it because it's a neat sword.
I'd imagine those crazy Nords that actually train with axe and roundshield would be every bit as effective as your Samauri.

And I certainty would prefer to watch rather then take part in this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPbTWDeqQf0

Small bonuses sound reasonable to me. Not familiar with how H2H works in the PnP, but do you unlock "maneuvers" or anything of the sort as you get better at martial arts? Not necessarily hard, RAW (rules as written, as I realize this can have two meanings in this context) maneuvers, but anything that represents you learning how to do more with a given fighting style between level 1 and 10?

One thing I do appreciate about CP2020, from what I understand so far, is that you can just practice and get better at doing things. If you want to become a martial artist, it sounds like you can, given enough time and practice, without compromising your entire set of class abilities and features.

In D&D, however, a ranger can never learn a monk's fighting styles unless they multiclass, and that comes with some nasty drawback and doesn't really make sense a lot of times.

No "classes", only a single unique and role specific skill restricted to each specific role (in the rules as written, many ... most ... GMs allow characters to learn those skills however ... at a lower skill cap then the specialist however).

The "problem" is time, money, and limited skill improvement opportunities/points. CP2077 is NOT Skyrim or Fallout 4 where eventually you'll master every skill in the game. You have to pick what you want to be good at, and the cost is many MANY skills you're not. This is why people run around as teams not as lone wolves.

To quote "Game of Thrones" - "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."

 

[Snowflakez]

Probably ... if ... and only if ... you specifically study and train with that specific style of weapon.
It stands to reason a trained Samauri knows how to use their katana (and their bow ... something many forget) better then someone just using it because it's a neat sword.
I'd imagine those crazy Nords that actually train with axe and roundshield would be every bit as effective as your Samauri.

And I certainty would prefer to watch rather then take part in this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPbTWDeqQf0


No "classes", only a single unique and role specific skill restricted to each specific role (in the rules as written, many ... most ... GMs allow characters to learn those skills however ... at a lower skill cap then the specialist however).

The "problem" is time, money, and limited skill improvement opportunities/points. CP2077 is NOT Skyrim or Fallout 4 where eventually you'll master every skill in the game. You have to pick what you want to be good at, and the cost is many MANY skills you're not. This is why people run around as teams not as lone wolves.

To quote "Game of Thrones" - "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."

Yep! That's how I figured it worked. Even if you can't become a jack of all trades, being able to pick and choose what you want to do over time is way more appealing to me than being super restricted from the get-go. After all, you don't just decide to be a ranger when you're born and live that way for the rest of your live... Sh*t happens, you adapt to changing circumstances and pick up new skills based on your interests and the needs of your situation.

I would love for a future D&D edition to adopt some of 2020's mechanics.

On topic, I would like to see an emphasis placed on street brawls and close quarters combat, like you said in the other thread.

I know guns are super important and all, and I'm actually not asking for martial arts like we discussed before (personally don't really care if its in or not), but fast, brutal encounters in tight alleyways and dimly lit streets appeal to me for sure. To that end, I'd love to see fist augmentations, brass knuckles (or the 2020/2077 equivalent), stuff like that. Perhaps they could even be nonlethal, though I know in reality it's quite difficult to knock somebody out when you're beating their skull in (At least not as easy as it is in the movies).

 

[Gillian_Seed]

As far as weapon types I want to see a large amount of varying types of traditional melee and projectile weapons as well as technological based weapons such as something that would cause cybernetic implants or body augments to malfunction though perhaps the later would be better implemented through a modding system.

Just as important if not more so, I want weapon leveling, modding/augments and varying types of ammo. I would also love to see varying levels of rarities applied to weapons, mods and ammo etc which would allow for chasing after god roll gear.

 

[Snowflakez]

As far as weapon types I want to see a large amount of varying types of traditional melee and projectile weapons as well as technological based weapons such as something that would cause cybernetic implants or body augments to malfunction though perhaps the later would be better implemented through a modding system.

Just as important if not more so, I want weapon leveling, modding/augments and varying types of ammo. I would also love to see varying levels of rarities applied to weapons, mods and ammo etc which would allow for chasing after god roll gear.

What do you mean by "Weapon leveling," exactly?

 

[Suhiira]

I would love for a future D&D edition to adopt some of 2020's mechanics.

I've been running a PnP game using (a personalized variant of) the "Harn Master" (which I continue to contribute to ... yes one of my "professional" works) for over 30 years ... yes the same game, with a few of the original players/characters. It's basically what you're looking for. There's a HUGE list of skills you'll never master, pick those you wish to and call your self whatever you like ... Ranger, Forester, Huntsman, Scout, Semi-hermet that hates civilization. Just beware, people (i.e. NPCs) do have expectations, so if you call yourself one of the above you damn well better be able to find food and shelter in the wilds and not get lost (too often). In an illiterate village/clan centered society your reputation is VITAL.

 

[Suhiira]

As far as weapon types I want to see a large amount of varying types of traditional melee and projectile weapons as well as technological based weapons such as something that would cause cybernetic implants or body augments to malfunction though perhaps the later would be better implemented through a modding system.

Just as important if not more so, I want weapon leveling, modding/augments and varying types of ammo. I would also love to see varying levels of rarities applied to weapons, mods and ammo etc which would allow for chasing after god roll gear.

Actually cyberware ... implants and body augmentation are central to Cyberpunk 2020.
One of the main topics of the game is - How does such body modification effect your basic "humanity"?

No real "god roll gear" in the game tho. Any, and everyone cane use whatever they can find or afford (how well is another story). It's how effectively you use it, not the gear itself, that makes the difference.

 

[Guest 4149880]

That said, try playing on any difficulty other than normal or easy and tell me you can run into a shotgun-wielding raider's face without very, very heavy armor or damage-reducing/dodge-related perks. Doesn't work, in my experience - I get rekt every time. Obviously, level comes into play here, but that's just the type of RPG FO4 is. A lot of us hope CP2077 is a level-less RPG where everyone and everything is dangerous at all times.

With the already lethal combat system used in Cyberpunk, I don't see how 2077 could include difficulty settings. That would mean the game would need weapons/armor scaling and damage modifiers which isn't how the combat works. A 9mm round should do the same damage depending on what it hits all the time, and a setting shouldn't change how much damage 9mm can do, the difference should be what the enemies you're facing are using as a defensive measure against what the player is using, and enemy numbers.

Fallout 4 system is simply allowing a variety of playstyles predetermined by the developers so they're made into skills with perks to support them, even if that means surviving a point blank blast to the face with a 44 magnum because of the 80% damage resistance/melee playstyle perk. Its a system that's built to make the player focus on particular play style rather then being creative and building it yourself from what you've learned. Also based on numbers, percentages and artificial modifies that shouldn't belong in 2077.

I think 2077 should use a fixed damage system, by maxing melee weapon and each ammunition type so they cannot be upgraded. If you need more damage, use a bigger round. Every type of gear and weapon/ammo type should have a fixed damage rating. Yes, upgrading should be possible just as it would be if someone modifies their own gear in real life. Weapon mods, armor defensive mods, loading your own hot ammo, but it should all be based on the physical factor rather then numbers behind the scenes.

If you walk in to buy some gear, it should explicate be explained what rounds it is proficient in defending against. As well as the weapons you intend to use, and for who. Knowing that, and what the player plans on going up against should be part of preparing for battle in the game, lot like Witcher 3 but maybe deeper and more detail specific.

Combat defense should be a physical based hitbox location system that relies on armor/protection layers on areas of the body, augmentations, player tactics to avoid actually being shot. It would be a very precise and technical gameplay but it seems that's what it should be based on. And obviously this would require some very good enemy AI to allow for them to shoot the players specific weak areas that might be exposed.

Combat offence should work the same in reverse on enemies. Based on what the enemies are using as defense and where its located on their body, so players shoot placement is key as well as using high caliber rounds if you want to attempt to penetrate a layer or 2 if possible.

And this is putting it simply, without mentioning the long list of other details anyone can think of. But the basic premise is, a lethal combat system based on realistic cause and effect rather then playing chance.

 

[Snowflakez]

With the already lethal combat system used in Cyberpunk, I don't see how 2077 could include difficulty settings. That would mean the game would need weapons/armor scaling and damage modifiers which isn't how the combat works. A 9mm round should do the same damage depending on what it hits all the time, and a setting shouldn't change how much damage 9mm can do, the difference should be what the enemies you're facing are using as a defensive measure against what the player is using, and enemy numbers.

Right, I totally agree. When I said difficulty settings, I was specifically referring to Fallout 4, nothing else. I was just saying that Fallout 4's melee system doesn't allow you to run into bullets with impunity if you are playing on anything other than easy, which seemed to be the implication eraser was making. Just clarifying a point.

Devil's advocate here, but we don't know for sure that 2077 will actually use a level-less system. They could just wind up doing what they did with TW3, which would then make difficulty settings more likely.

I'll be pretty disappointed if they do go that route, of course (as most of us would) but it could happen. I don't really know what compromises they feel they need to make to turn this project into a real thing, or what their reasons for doing so might be, though.

 

[Gillian_Seed]

No real "god roll gear" in the game tho. Any, and everyone cane use whatever they can find or afford (how well is another story). It's how effectively you use it, not the gear itself, that makes the difference.

It's just something that I personally enjoy in video games. One of my favorite aspects of gaming, especially in RPG's is character leveling/building and combat which is something I enjoy doing for its own sake when the combat system is both rewarding in terms of loot and fun.

I feel stat/property variations of otherwise identical weapons adds next level variety and value to the weapons and armor as well as endgame purpose being that you can continuously strive for better gear if only in various iterations of what you already have...but by that point you've likely invested hundreds of hours into the game and gotten a lot of enjoyment out of it.

​