Factions

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Factions

In various threads there were discussions about factions, or at least people were touching the topic from different angles. But since I haven't found any thread dedicated to factions per se, so here you go.

Factions. Guilds. Gangs. Sides. Tribes. Groups-of-people-with-mutual-interests. Regardless of the name, in CRPGs, especially the ones with open world, they are quite common, and sometimes even important story-wise. The question is, do we even want factions in CP2077? If so, then why? What could factions give us players? Quests, sure, money, yup, perhaps even some kewl toyz otherwise unobtainable -- but that seems a bit superficial to me. It'd be like in TES games, where you get into a guild, do a number of quests, get a bunch of rewards, for some reason become the guild's master -- and no one really cares, your subordinates included. Ultimately it's more frustrating rather than fulfilling experience. I wouldn't like that very much, but is there any other way of making faction mechanics, one that would both be fulfilling and valuable to players, and viable for the developers?
 
That example you give in Skyrim is a big negative for that game and alot of ppl agree on it.

That seems like the exact thing CDPR will try to avoid in this game when it comes to factions. They like things to have meaning and consequence.
 
Skyrim is the latest grand example of how factions shouldn't be implemented, although I was thinking about Oblivion at the moment. Anyway, factions mechanics are generally somewhat of a disappointment in possibly any game I can recall, especially when you're able to climb at the very top of a faction. Shouldn't you be able to do something with that position? Like, manage your men or such?

As I said, factions are generally a way to get access to a number of quests and rewards, and really nothing more. Granted, if the quests are implemented right, and faction dynamics are believable, it's all fine. But I was thinking, perhaps there can be something else, something more?

Why do people join factions in the first place? Easy money would be most likely the first answer that'd come to mind, but it turns out that's not necessarily true. In many cases it's about belonging; people tend to give money rather than make money, just so that they can be a part of something, of a group of people devoid of perspectives. Not seeing themselves as part of society, they want to become part of a gang or some other organization. And granted, games tend to sometimes explore those waters, albeit superficially, and always when describing NPCs. It would be great if devs could create a situation where player would be placed in such situation, that he'd want to become a part of a group not for the sake of quests he'll get, but because being alone is though, or simply because he cares about the NPCs that are part of said group.

Then, if factions dynamics would be done right, player would get to choose to work for the group. To clarify, I'm thinking about situation where there are many factions, and some (every one) of them rival with each other, most likely violently. Mechanics-wise there shouldn't be any ramifications on how many factions you could join (like in Skyrim, you can join all of them; the lack of logic is another matter entirely). After all the more factions you join, the more quests you'll get, right? Right. What I'm aiming at is to create a motivation for player to stick to a single group (at least from among those which compete with each other) and really become part of the group -- that is, not only in a task-reward type of relationship. That would be a lot more meaningful, far more fulfilling (if done right), and largely increase replay value of the game.
 
I wrote something on gangs before reading one of the Solo of Fortunes where it had the same idea as me. This would really make the game dope imho. After all Night City is a city of gangs.


Joining a gang in Night City means commitment and remaining loyal is the key to success. Gangs means family, security, and an unlimited resource of guns, drugs, and synthetic prostitutes. Joining has special requirements for each gang depending on their philosophy. Say for instance, you're a Solo that joins the Slaughterhouse, you would have to kill someone to get in. Depending on which gang you choose (Only one) and whose fates you decide to end means different endings that are directly effected by this decision. Choose your gang wisely, pass all the requirements to become an initiate. If you choose to leave the gang then blood must be spilled, either yours or theirs. Each gang will have their own missions and agendas, rivals and allies, territories and resources.

As the gang gets stronger, so does your respect and fear among other gangs. Unless the gang is already feared such as the Slaughterhouse. The higher the rank you receive in the gang the bigger your group of companions/followers are able to follow you throughout Night City. I say about up to 1-6 or so followers (if at all possible), you can use tactical formations on the streets, carefully plan an all out ambush assault, or just violently attack one person relentlessly like a pack of wolves.

Radiant missions for gangs:

Killing for no reason (a killing spree massacre), setting buildings on fire, armed robbery, professional assassination, murder-for-hire, tagging, drug trafficking, arms trafficking, racketeering, human trafficking, prostitution, black market cybernetics, hired netrunning, fly-by murders, old fashioned drive-by murders, extortion, black market braindance, illegal raves, home invasions, murderous car jackings, kidnapping, bank robberies, & terrorism. Gangs run this city, crime makes this city go around. If not you, then who? Sure the cops have their own side of the story, but so do the criminals that live in this city and truly control the streets.

Crossing out rival gang tags on walls will be declarations of war. If you catch other gangs doing so, immediately kill them on the spot and leave their body as a message to your rivals. Don't forget to cross them out and tag your gang back up on the wall to send a clear and concise message. Leaving them running for their lives. Some run away and some test their luck against you, some are more fierce than others like the Maelstrom and Sacred Blades.

Gang Politics

Advancement in the gang leads to leadership from the bottom up. Once the highest rank is attained, the power politics begin. Rising up the ranks depending on your philosophy should be easy, however the leadership role should be hard to earn. Once you become leader you gain the absolute authority to sanction murders, run the gang however you choose. Decide to unify certain or all gangs, decide which gangs survive by offering peace treaties, and which gangs are greenlit to be massacred. Gang Eliminations completely rid the city of that certain gang as long as there are no survivors left of that gang. It takes a special kind of genius to organize a gang in the business of crime. As the leader of the gang, other duties can include various community services to clean up your image with the people. Depends on if you want to be loved or feared. You may also choose whether or not to legitimize the business by investing in various types of businesses or to continue the brazen illegal activities.

You decide who to associate with for control of Night City, the mob, the corporations, or your own gang along with the streetscum. The streetscum are hungry to rise out of their poverty. Personally, I would give my services to Arasaka for their power and through association gain access to their training as well their armory. Giving you the player, what you truly want. Power.

Choose which crimes the gang gets involved with, what drugs to control, which streets are yours. Reinforce the gangs safehouse with top of the line security, make it possible to live with the gang and/or near their safehouse, have a mistress or two around at hand. Bribe corrupt policemen in the NCPD and politicians to look the other way when your gang makes its presence known. A gang that is finally yours to control and expand. Being a leader, means a seat in the underground delegate. More power on the streets means more power at the negotiation table with other gang leaders. Even intimidating them before another war is incited, happily handing over there gang's assets.

New initiation followers are put to the test, whether they succeed or fail, you ultimately decide their fate. Initiations include brutal outnumbered beatings to killing rivals or armed robbery. For some gangs the only way to get in is to kill someone, anyone. Blood in, blood out. Only the best of the new recruits advance in rank, and you alone can choose to give them that new rank. As well as improve their stats or advanced implants. Enabling you to be able to build your gang. Travel together on the streets and inside the rapid transit trains or other various transportations. You also will get to name who will be your lieutenants, enforcers, as well as name your second in command.

Order hits on people, complete the contracts yourself or hand it to a trusted subordinate. They can range from low profile to high profile. Low profile means the hit will not raise any alarms, high profile hits send messages to rivals and the public. You decide which and how many members carry out the hit. Who you choose determines the success rate of the hit. If your members fail, you can kill them to set an example. Don't worry, you'll have new and more promising prospects prove their worth and loyalty. Be wary of ranking the more ambitious ones as well as volatile registered cyberpsychos and undercover cops. Hits can also be ordered on the airwaves of pirate radio stations, a reward that should be substantial to those that carry it out. If that fails, maybe its time to get the job done yourself. Hits ordered from prisons use sophisticated codes in their letters needing cypher keys to read, or writing in urine. Every assassination must be approved by you if you are the leader of course.

Gang Tattoos
Should be an integral part of the process, tattooed like real criminals infused with cybernetic implants. A cyberpunk gangbanger just sounds crazy. From intricate art on the head to the hands, there are visible and non-visible implants with tattoos over them representing who you are and what you represent, down to what part of the city you are from. Some even represent Night City in tattooed form, claiming the city is theirs. Tattoos and implants represent things that THEY cannot take away from you, much like your soul. Losing your Earthly possessions if you are sent to jail or in a survival situation, you will never lose your implants or tattoos. There should be a shitload of gang symbols to choose from that can cover any part of the body or ones specially made for certain gangs that cover 70% of the upper body. Tattoos tell the story of a criminal, including rank. Tattoos raise the intimidation stat, upgrading to a black light touch up on the outlines raises the cool stat or even advanced nano ink tattoos that move and glow.

Jail in Night City is an even more dangerous place. Murders happen during breakfast, basically its a gladiator school. The jail itself should be a little big village, with different gangs segregated and the tension is incredibly high. Serving time itself should be a story, if you even get caught alive. Maximum security for the highest threat level criminals is available, making it harder to escape. Vibrant as the city itself, with unwritten rules in place where you can die if you're not careful. Killing guards will be hard, but not impossible. In jail, you learn how to make shanks and plot an elaborate escape. Sharp cutting implants would come in handy.

Notes on my favorite Cyberpunk gang, the Slaughterhouse:

>Slaughterhouse should be influenced heavily by prison culture and should adopt tactics by the likes of the Serbian Black Hand, the Aryan Brotherhood (without the racism), and a futuristic version of Bill the Butcher in Gangs of New York. Sending messages with their murders that no one is untouchable, give us the chance to become the most ruthless gang legend in the history of Night City running on the edge of cyberpsychosis. If the NCPD are uncooperative with your rise to power, go to war with the police, send them messages that they can be killed anywhere, anytime, even inside jail. Slaughterhouse should very much be styled after Prison gangs in Night City with a hyper brutality unseen. Their signature murders leave blood all over the crime scene, some done in silence, some bodies are never found. They should be a brotherhood, that watch and take care of their own. A true booster gang claiming murder as their number one product.

Gang Attire
Uniform code, there should be different styles of clothing within each gang. The more styles the better. Styles that distinguish rank as well as look cool which in cyberpunk is pretty important. Other pieces of apparel are more subtle, but still show others you are part of a gang. Wearing the colors or signature of a certain gang should be able to easily intimidate up to all NPC's lower than AA, A, or B threat level.

Humans are the ultimate predator on the Planet, a mere animal, the smartest animal. Evolving with cybernetics is natural. It is natural for humans to form gangs for survival in a violent environment, much like the wolves. Adopting animalistic instinct tendencies and getting the augmentations to match will only further our evolution.

Break down the walls of the Combat Zone, bring on the cybered-up violence.
 
Then, if factions dynamics would be done right, player would get to choose to work for the group. To clarify, I'm thinking about situation where there are many factions, and some (every one) of them rival with each other, most likely violently. Mechanics-wise there shouldn't be any ramifications on how many factions you could join (like in Skyrim, you can join all of them; the lack of logic is another matter entirely). After all the more factions you join, the more quests you'll get, right? Right. What I'm aiming at is to create a motivation for player to stick to a single group (at least from among those which compete with each other) and really become part of the group -- that is, not only in a task-reward type of relationship. That would be a lot more meaningful, far more fulfilling (if done right), and largely increase replay value of the game.

Yes, I don't want to be able to join every single gang out there. I want to remain loyal to one brand and bring it on its way to become powerful. I don't want to be leader of everything, like IRL you can only join ONE gang. Also, as leader of a gang you can either choose to work for Arasaka as a puppet gang or fight against it. Personally I'd rather play the puppet gang until I've gained enough of their knowledge to crush them from within. Also, nomad factions should be separate from gang factions. I want to join a nomadic group out there in the wastelands outside of the city. Also, making alliances with certain gangs or factions should give you the benefits of that faction. It can be so much deeper than what Skyrim has, all we have now are our own imaginations for now.
 
I don't know if you should be taking over anything really.... Faction should be used for how various groups treat you and react to you, but taking over gangs, corporations, or whatever, seems a little bit out there to me...

Maybe for certain classes it makes sense... I mean a fixer becoming a gang leader makes sense, a corporate rising to the top of his corporation makes sense.... but the reality is, that by taking administrative position, you are no longer an edgerunner, you are a desk jockey... unless we are talking like small, corner gangs, or maybe mom and pop corporations....
 
I don't know if you should be taking over anything really.... Faction should be used for how various groups treat you and react to you, but taking over gangs, corporations, or whatever, seems a little bit out there to me...

Maybe for certain classes it makes sense... I mean a fixer becoming a gang leader makes sense, a corporate rising to the top of his corporation makes sense.... but the reality is, that by taking administrative position, you are no longer an edgerunner, you are a desk jockey... unless we are talking like small, corner gangs, or maybe mom and pop corporations....

I agree like 100% with this. I DON'T want this game to be Grand Theft Fucking Auto.
 
If nothing else, friendliness to various factions should help determine how they deal with you when you run into them on the street.

Say you do a favor for the Blood Razors, they get more friendly, and won't try to mug you. But that hurts your reputation with one of their rival gangs, and they become slightly more hostile to you. You can try to balance the different factions, or you can go full tilt towards one of them, being able to call on them in a fight, but making enemies of their rivals.

-- Ben
 
I agree like 100% with this. I DON'T want this game to be Grand Theft Fucking Auto.

I kinda do want it to be grand theft auto...

But I have no idea how GTA relates to discussion at hand....

If nothing else, friendliness to various factions should help determine how they deal with you when you run into them on the street.

Say you do a favor for the Blood Razors, they get more friendly, and won't try to mug you. But that hurts your reputation with one of their rival gangs, and they become slightly more hostile to you. You can try to balance the different factions, or you can go full tilt towards one of them, being able to call on them in a fight, but making enemies of their rivals.

-- Ben


Yeah, Micromanaged Faction would be awesome... in addition, maybe the more well known you are in gang circles, the less the cops like you,.... hey you associate with dangerous people... unless you are a cop, then it just makes you more valuable... but maybe someone suspects you of corruption....

Lot of possibilities with that line of thought.... probably too many, but its worth exploring...
 
They've said countless times there are going to be gangs, of course it is in the books but I digress. Gangs run the illicit underground still to this day, the future is no different. I picture it only being more violent with cybernetic enhancements.

I'd like to be able to join a gang, get their specialized tattoos all over my head, neck, and hands, etc. I want a full criminal underworld to participate in, the cops on the other hand will be just as deep and rich. Anyways, like a shinobi, I just want to find something to be loyal to when I'm roleplaying a game.
 
I kinda do want it to be grand theft auto...

But I have no idea how GTA relates to discussion at hand....




Yeah, Micromanaged Faction would be awesome... in addition, maybe the more well known you are in gang circles, the less the cops like you,.... hey you associate with dangerous people... unless you are a cop, then it just makes you more valuable... but maybe someone suspects you of corruption....

Lot of possibilities with that line of thought.... probably too many, but its worth exploring...

My point being - getting caught up in creating a system to represent being in a "gang" which is major crux of the grand theft auto series - the rise in the criminal hierarchy - is great for THAT type of game. Having that be the *model* or the major focal use of a *factions* system for CP would be a disappointment in my opinion. Should gangs be included? Yes, should they serve as a crucial community/system/dynamic in the game yes, but not in the way it's done in the GTA series and definitely not without equally developed alternate faction systems and interactions.
 
My point being - getting caught up in creating a system to represent being in a "gang" which is major crux of the grand theft auto series - the rise in the criminal hierarchy - is great for THAT type of game. Having that be the *model* or the major focal use of a *factions* system for CP would be a disappointment in my opinion. Should gangs be included? Yes, should they serve as a crucial community/system/dynamic in the game yes, but not in the way it's done in the GTA series and definitely not without equally developed alternate faction systems and interactions.

To be fair, Cyberpunk came out way before GTA.

Also, in essence the true cyberpunks are the gangs and the criminal element itself.
 
Grand Theft Fucking Auto is not a RPG.

No video game is an rpg... regardless of what they want to apply the name too.

The open world of GTA and Fallout and similar games comes a whole lot closer to the tabletop experience than any video game labelled as an RPG.
 
We don't need faction membership a la Skyrim, which demanded too little of you and gave you too little in return. If you want the warm, fuzzy feeling of belonging to a group that will really have your back, play a Nomad. Or, to a lesser extent, a Corporate, a Cop, or a Fixer. Other than that, you probably shouldn't be able to buy or earn your way into any relationship where you finally feel really safe and beyond the chance of betrayal, because that's the whole point of Nomad. And, somewhat, the whole point of cyberpunk.

What we need is Reputation earned in game through actions and accomplishments as opposed to simply bought through xp. Then you can have people who would care about the kind of Rep you have (trustworthy, stone killer, elite Netrunner) be influenced by that rep. As opposed to, you know, working your way to the very top of the Mage's Guild and then starting as an untrustworthy rank amateur in the Warrior's Guild as if you were any old recruit.
 
We don't need faction membership a la Skyrim, which demanded too little of you and gave you too little in return. If you want the warm, fuzzy feeling of belonging to a group that will really have your back, play a Nomad. Or, to a lesser extent, a Corporate, a Cop, or a Fixer. Other than that, you probably shouldn't be able to buy or earn your way into any relationship where you finally feel really safe and beyond the chance of betrayal, because that's the whole point of Nomad. And, somewhat, the whole point of cyberpunk.

What we need is Reputation earned in game through actions and accomplishments as opposed to simply bought through xp. Then you can have people who would care about the kind of Rep you have (trustworthy, stone killer, elite Netrunner) be influenced by that rep. As opposed to, you know, working your way to the very top of the Mage's Guild and then starting as an untrustworthy rank amateur in the Warrior's Guild as if you were any old recruit.

What you say is more or less Fallout New Vegas factions,
where you only have reputation of factions without actually joining them.

How about this, then for something new.
The main character is the enemy of all factions. but he/she can have any relationship with any gorgeous female/male on any factions.
It will feels like dangerous relationships.
He can destroy them all, or unified them all under one banner.
It would be interesting to collect gorgeous females from all factions, if we are going to the unification plan.
 
I'm all for gangs and working my way up the ladder. Anyone who says otherwise is not a true Cyberpunk and hasn't read any of the books.
 
I'm all for gangs and working my way up the ladder. Anyone who says otherwise is not a true Cyberpunk and hasn't read any of the books.

Untrue.

You might form a working relationship with a gang and get their trust as someone who does what he's paid to do and doesn't screw you, but you don't join it & work your way up to any significant height within the timescale that CRPGs operate on. People who have been part of that gang for a decade aren't stepping aside because you're a deft hand with a deck or a gun, and during the time you were earning your Combat Sense they were earning Family so they're sticking together and you're the outsider. You're just not going to be able to catch up to them, prospect.

Or, put otherwise:

"Night City was like a deranged experiment in social Darwinism, designed by a bored researcher who kept one thumb permanently on the fast-forward button. Stop hustling and you sank without a trace, but move a little too swiftly and you'd break the fragile surface tension of the black market; either way, you were gone, with nothing left of you but some vague memory in the mind of a fixture like Ratz, though heart or lungs or kidneys might survive in the service of some stranger with New Yen for the clinic tanks." Emphasis added.
 
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