Female protagonist and what it could implies

[Lerenwe]

Female protagonist and what it could implies

Hello all,

First, I'm sorry if this as already been told elsewhere on the forum, I made a quick search, and didn't find anything.

So, based on the few informations we have on CP2077, we should be able to create our own character before actually playing.
Personally, I'm already fantasizing about playing a character that would ressemble Motoko Kusanagi from Ghost in the shell.

So yeah, I really love playing with female character when I have the possibility, because I find it interesting to live in an adventure from the point of view of a female.
So if (And I'm sure it will be the case, especially when you know that every game or almost include a female protagonist since the "video-games-is-a-sexist-industry" shitstorm) you can create your own female player, I would love that it wouldn't be like playing with a male protagonist, only with the look of a woman, like in A LOT of games.

What I would love to see is that your character's gender would influence the characters, the plot in some ways. Hell, why not even some quests that would be accessible only to a certain gender, I don't know.
I think this would be interesting because this way some interesting themes could be presents in the game (Sexism, of course, for instance, but not only), and the player would be directly implied into these themes.

Well, my english is a bit limited, so I hope you'll get what I meant =p I'm interested in earing your opinions and what you could add to this !

 

[Decatonkeil]

Play as a female character, change into a male prosthetic body, fuck wrist watches. XD

No, now seriously. I think we talked about something like this long ago but I think the topic hadn't its own thread yet. I DON'T think gender should lock/open quests/missions, it's the year 2077, it's cyberpunk, skills should get you the job. Skills or chips. Now, it affecting the outlook of other characters had of us... definitely. I think it was this thread where we had that discussion http://www.cyberpunk.net/forum/en/threads/176-Character-Romance-Discussion but... 54 pages... yeah...

If our character were to try and seduce another character (for romance or to get something out of it) the characters shouldn't always be receptive to our character's sex. The target character should already be straight, homosexual or bi. Ours would not be labelled, we'd just know who our character is hittiing on or sleeping with.

If the game takes different approaches to missions, I'm okay with having a mission let us act like a classic kunoichi (female ninjas that, traditionally, used seduction to get close to their victims and drugged or poisoned them) or classic ninja (male ninjas that, traditionally did what ninjas and kunoichis tend to do in modern media, minus ninja magic). But what if you're playing a female character that just doesn't have weapons of seduction? Or a male gigolo that just for being a male won't interest his male straight target? I would have the objective and in some cases the price of entry be the skills, but just so that the example of female character can get the job done not having to seduce anyone and the example male has to use his other charisma skills.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Well, to my kind the Cyberpunk 2020 world is about as politically correct as the late 1970's/early 1980's, so there should be a good opportunity for sexism and the use of seduction as a legitimate tactic. Some may do the same to men...
Don't drop the soap...

Who knows, some booster gangs may have a thing for preying on 'vulnerable' women, so they may follow and attempt to accost lone female protagonists.

I think there is plenty of scope for CDPR to run with this as another layer of depth and realism.

 

[primephreak]

Its all about attitude. Some things in the game should only happen because of your gender. but mostly id hate to have to go through two different play throughs because more then 10% of the game was gender locked. I would not mind Role specific content. but then to cut it up again to gender seams tedious.

There was an interview with George R.R. Martian(writer of game of thrones) where he is asked how he writes female characters so well. His answer is pretty cool. My point is If the writing in the game is good it wont matter if your PC is a boy or a girl or a neutered transgender ocelot. The story will attend to its self. Even Motoko Kusanagi doesn't adhere to gender stereotypes. (spoilers) In the original movie she bonds with an AI that has no gender but choose a Masculine voice. And in doing so possibly lost all sense of gender identity.

I could Rant all day about Motoko and GitS (did a gender role paper on the movie in collage) but i wont, And yes i will being making her as a PC when i get my hands on the game as well XD

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Androgene's are genderless. They are mostly found in Europe.

 

[Decatonkeil]

Androgene's are genderless. They are mostly found in Europe.

What? Like now?

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

What? Like now?

Eurosource Plus describe a 'cultural movement' where some people choose to become genderless. They feel that sexuality is the most dangerous part of humanity. By removing their gender, they remove their sexuality. In so doing, they free themselves from the associated emotions and bias. This leaves them with a much clearer mind set and they are often less corruptable for it.

 

[Decatonkeil]

Eurosource Plus describe a 'cultural movement' where some people choose to become genderless. They feel that sexuality is the most dangerous part of humanity. By removing their gender, they remove their sexuality. In so doing, they free themselves from the associated emotions and bias. This leaves them with a much clearer mind set and they are often less corruptable for it.

Now I read my comment and I see how it can be misunderstood: I didn't meant it as "like the genderless people we have nowadays in Europe", but referencing your use of the present simple passive.

On with YOUR comment... oh, so what moved them are those transhumanist ideas that were debated already in the forums. What do you guys think? An option from the very beginning on the game or a modification to be bought afterwards?

 

[dragonbird]

I like the idea of blurred boundaries.

As far as protagonist's gender is concerned, there are two extremes that I hope they avoid. Other than that, I don't really mind how they do it.

Extreme #1: The Tomboy. They design the game around a male protagonist, then give the player the option to make some minor biological changes, add a higher-pitched voice, a prettier hairstyle, and call the protagonist "female".

Extreme #2: The Stereotype. The female protagonist has lower strength and higher empathy, and it is therefore recommended that you steer her towards those roles more-suited for her sweet feminine nature. Oh, and her backstory involves either rape or something to do with her children.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I like the idea of blurred boundaries.

As far as protagonist's gender is concerned, there are two extremes that I hope they avoid. Other than that, I don't really mind how they do it.

Extreme #1: The Tomboy. They design the game around a male protagonist, then give the player the option to make some minor biological changes, add a higher-pitched voice, a prettier hairstyle, and call the protagonist "female".

Extreme #2: The Stereotype. The female protagonist has lower strength and higher empathy, and it is therefore recommended that you steer her towards those roles more-suited for her sweet feminine nature. Oh, and her backstory involves either rape or something to do with her children.

What's wrong with Tomboys?

I for one am hoping for a similar background generation to the PnP. You litterally have no idea of your characters backstory until after character gen and you watch a customised 'intro' based on your lifepath - a bit like the Fallout: NV cutscenes after finishing a DLC.

 

[Sardukhar]

Tomboy is just so video game generic, though. All you need is amnesiac tomboy and you are good to go. Oh, wait, Remember Me!

This would lead to a discussion of what a "tomboy" really is, I suppose. And what makes feminine, feminine. Oh, that sounds like a fun conversation.

I really, really, really hope for the Lifepath. Because it is, to this date, my favourite way to generate character detail.

 

[dragonbird]

What's wrong with Tomboys?

Absolutely nothing, but if you're going to have a female protagonist, it does need to be more than just a man with tits.

As I said, the problem is with the extremes, and unfortunately there are games made that do follow those extremes. If they're going to have female protagonists, it needs to be handled in a way that's neither the lazy "Absolutely No Difference" method, or the "High Empathy/Weak Body/Maternal Instinct" stereotype.

But it's probably a side-track. I have enough faith in CDPR to think they won't fall into either trap.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Absolutely nothing, but if you're going to have a female protagonist, it does need to be more than just a man with tits.

As I said, the problem is with the extremes, and unfortunately there are games made that do follow those extremes. If they're going to have female protagonists, it needs to be handled in a way that's neither the lazy "Absolutely No Difference" method, or the "High Empathy/Weak Body/Maternal Instinct" stereotype.

But it's probably a side-track. I have enough faith in CDPR to think they won't fall into either trap.

I agree, I think CDPR are more than capable of delivering this.

 

[Garrison72]

When 2077 was announced, the topic of gender affecting gameplay or dialog came up on the Witcher forum. I'm not opposed to the idea. Surprisingly, a number of women gamers were. Their logic was they didn't want to concern themselves with making decisions based on gender in what is essentially meant to be an exercise in escapism. I can see that view, but I see value in CDPR tackling this problem, and make no mistake they'd piss a lot of people off in the process.

 

[dragonbird]

When 2077 was announced, the topic of gender affecting gameplay or dialog came up on the Witcher forum. I'm not opposed to the idea. Surprisingly, a number of women gamers were. Their logic was they didn't want to concern themselves with making decisions based on gender in what is essentially meant to be an exercise in escapism. I can see that view, but I see value in CDPR tackling this problem, and make no mistake they'd piss a lot of people off in the process.

The gender difference that really pissed me off was the assignment of attributes. I'm not sure if anyone still does it, but Wizardry used to.

In games where it might matter, I want the differences to exist, but be unimportant to gameplay. I'm not sure how I feel about plot differences. If they have backstory/mission variations generally (for role selection, whatever), then I'm OK with them also having it for gender, but I don't think I want it JUST for gender. And they MUST avoid stereotypes. Have I already said that?

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I don't know Dragonbird, I think there is a certain level of 'noir' linked to the classic stereotypes.

As long as its possible to both create and avoid these classic stereotypical archetypes, I think everyone would be happy.

 

[227]

There are lots of interesting themes that they could explore in the game, but I sincerely hope that -isms (sexism, racism, etcetera) aren't one of them. I'm as sick of people trying to draw attention to -isms as I am of -ists at this point. It'd be interesting if different genders had some different quests I guess, but nothing dealing with sexism.

Otherwise you risk doing something like Bioshock Infinite did with race, touching on it without ever really addressing it and thus awkwardly brushing it aside. Basically, I want themes heavily explored, and I'd love those heavily-explored themes to be more interesting than -isms, so I'd love it if they weren't there in any form.

Oh, wait, Remember Me!

Facestab.

 

[primephreak]

The gender difference that really pissed me off was the assignment of attributes. I'm not sure if anyone still does it, but Wizardry used to.

In games where it might matter, I want the differences to exist, but be unimportant to gameplay. I'm not sure how I feel about plot differences. If they have backstory/mission variations generally (for role selection, whatever), then I'm OK with them also having it for gender, but I don't think I want it JUST for gender. And they MUST avoid stereotypes. Have I already said that?

Skyrim does that. There are behind the scenes stat differences behind Males and Females of each species. The differences are like 0.1% or 0.2% in strength, base movement, stamina regen. ect. It doesn't really effect game play at all just how each race/gender feels. So a Wood elf female will feel very different then a Human male.

I dont think background stat adjustment would be a wise idea in this universe. There is not enough base variety between male and female to truly notice it. And with cyber options most of that then becomes moot.

I would much rather have gender play a roll in your background more and only have fluff that comments on your chosen gender. If your a female, big burly bad guys would insult you by calling you a scared little girl. For guys there would be Evil girls who would call you a little boy wanting his mommy. But it wouldn't effect the story just how people generally reacted to you.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I can understand why these sorts of stat based differences are included in some games. On average, women have a lower potential for muscle mass in the upper body compared to men. It's a simple genetic fact. There are other significant differences too, most involving mental stimuli.

However, CP2020 made no distinctions between men and women with regards to skills or stats and it was purely down to the GM how to interpret other elements of sexuality and gender.

I don't think Dragon, or the others, have anything to worry about. CDPR are on the ball.

 

[dragonbird]

I can understand why these sorts of stat based differences are included in some games. On average, women have a lower potential for muscle mass in the upper body compared to men. It's a simple genetic fact. There are other significant differences too, most involving mental stimuli.

However, CP2020 made no distinctions between men and women with regards to skills or stats and it was purely down to the GM how to interpret other elements of sexuality and gender.

I don't think Dragon, or the others, have anything to worry about. CDPR are on the ball.

No, I'm not concerned about it when it's CDPR, just having a general rant

Understand, yes. Realism, maybe, but acceptable? No.

It's pretty annoying. It's as though nobody actually stops for a minute and thinks about WHY they're including female characters. They add the option to play as a female in a game, thus demonstrating how totally non-sexist they are, then they add features that attempt to enforce role stereotyping - if you want to play as a woman, go for the healer/mage role, or maybe use a bow, but forget about playing as a two-handed sword fighter.

There are times when realism isn't desirable, and this is one of them. The biological differences are based on averages, and there's a lot of overlap, so there's no reason to introduce it into the game if it harms the user experience. There're plenty of configuration options that allow for fine-tuning of stats without using gender, and the lifestyle choices should be the determining factor, not the genetics.