Female Protagonist

[dragonbird]

Agreed, though female-only leads come with added obstacles. Remember Me was apparently rejected by several publishers because it had a female character.

Good example of the kind of thing that really does need to change.

And the reason they give, that male players wouldn't like to see their female protagonist kiss a guy. I don't actually believe that, but I'd be interested to know what MALE forum members think?

 

[KIrving]

Well, that's only one line though, and I just looked at the entire database of guard dialogue, it seems to be the only line that doesn't have a variable for the gender (basically a line of code that will change "he" to "she" if you're female).

About the brain voice; I can't say I have seen that. Can you tell me what the joke was?

A female voice modulator is, apparently, difficult to find in the Big MT. (Despite Doctor Dala clearly having one.)
The sink central intelligence unit also has a line where you can question it on calling you Sir all the time and it says it was never programed with a female equivalent.. It felt like a running gag from Obsidian about the reuse of assets. I just felt that it hit too close to home for me to find it amusing. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed Old World Blues as I'm a big fan of old science fiction literature and movies/tv.

 

[Garrison72]

Good example of the kind of thing that really does need to change.

And the reason they give, that male players wouldn't like to see their female protagonist kiss a guy. I don't actually believe that, but I'd be interested to know what MALE forum members think?

Well you know me, a sucker for a great female protagonist. I always play a woman in RPGs when I get the choice. I wouldn't mind seeing my character kiss a man, and if there were options I'd put real effort into which guy she chooses. Maybe a bit like a father choosing who his daughter dates? It wouldn't be a direct 'link' to my sexuality in any way. It's all escapism to me. It's a damn shame publishers are so skittish on the topic and one of the areas the industry as a whole needs to improve on. That said, the change has to come from within the studios, not public pressure and shaming.

 

[227]

And the reason they give, that male players wouldn't like to see their female protagonist kiss a guy. I don't actually believe that, but I'd be interested to know what MALE forum members think?

I'd have no problem with that, personally, but I've certainly met people who would. At least, they'd take exception to the idea. I doubt they'd actually have a problem once they were actually playing through a game like that if said game was good. Incidentally, I'm almost positive that the kiss in RM would be with this guy:

Spoiler

Some kind of close relationship between the two of them is hinted at in the game, but never really elaborated on. It's a shame, too, because he's a great character who only gets a few minutes devoted to him.

That said, the change has to come from within the studios, not public pressure and shaming.

100% this. I think it'll take some of the big-name studios forcing fixed female playable characters with male romances through before publishers will start to realize that there's actually a market for different kinds of characters and situations outside of the tried and true. Most of the "so and so game is sexist and hates women" debates only serve to trivialize the issue and drive people into extremes (case in point: the frequency of the word "feminazi" in such arguments).

 

[dragonbird]

Most of the "so and so game is sexist and hates women" debates only serve to trivialize the issue and drive people into extremes (case in point: the frequency of the word "feminazi" in such arguments).

QFT. And the reason why I often find myself on the "anti-feminist" side in such discussions.

 

[gregski]

As far as the Witcher goes I like the games despite how much they cater to the male gaze and also despite Geralt as the protagonist.

Tomb Raider does the same despite having Lara as the protagonist. Or by just having her as a protagonist. Which is...weird.

 

[dragonbird]

Tomb Raider does the same despite having Lara as the protagonist. Or by just having her as a protagonist. Which is...weird.

Exactly. So how is a developer supposed to avoid sexism? I've seen many comments from women that Tomb Raider was the first game where they felt "connected", holding it up as an example of the fact that a female protagonist can be a success. I've seen just as many comments deploring the blatant pandering to the male gaze in Tomb Raider, and holding it up as example of sexism.

The same with female clothing. On the one hand, there is the kind of feminism that says that scanty clothes objectify women, and is misogynistic, on the other, there's the kind of feminism that says that COMPLAINING about scanty clothes is an example of slut shaming, and is misogynistic.

So what is a developer to do? Submit every game to a committee where they can argue what's sexist and what isn't, and give it a rating?

 

[soldiergeralt]

the only thing developers can do is strive to be even better at depicting realistic situations grounded in reality.

tomb raider fails because they had a tank top wearing girl on the verge of panic attacks every 2 seconds turn into a typical action game caricature. any issue people perceive about the character becomes magnified.

 

[KIrving]

Tomb Raider does the same despite having Lara as the protagonist. Or by just having her as a protagonist. Which is...weird.

Exactly. So how is a developer supposed to avoid sexism? I've seen many comments from women that Tomb Raider was the first game where they felt "connected", holding it up as an example of the fact that a female protagonist can be a success. I've seen just as many comments deploring the blatant pandering to the male gaze in Tomb Raider, and holding it up as example of sexism.

The same with female clothing. On the one hand, there is the kind of feminism that says that scanty clothes objectify women, and is misogynistic, on the other, there's the kind of feminism that says that COMPLAINING about scanty clothes is an example of slut shaming, and is misogynistic.

So what is a developer to do? Submit every game to a committee where they can argue what's sexist and what isn't, and give it a rating?

As far as Tomb Raider goes I like the look they have given her this time around. It looks relatively practical for all that climbing, falling, fighting and stuff. I've seen a lot more positive comments about her new look than bad ones. I've yet to play the game though, it's sitting in my backlog at present so I can't say much about her treatment in game. Fortunately the criticism the developers received hasn't stopped them from planning a sequel. I hope that just because something may attract criticism or be difficult doesn't stop developers from making games with female protagonists

I think the problem I have with video characters that are dressed in an impractical and perhaps deliberately sexy fashion is that it seems like they haven't dressed themselves, someone else has. If I'm planning on going rock climbing or doing some parkour moves I'm not going to dress in high heel boots and a mini skirt. If you won't dress a male character in arseless chaps and nipple rings to go and save the world than perhaps it's not a good idea to dress your female character that way either. I think the same thing applies for story elements as well. If you won't do a certain thing to a male character then perhaps rethink doing it to a female character.

 

[CostinRaz]

And the reason they give, that male players wouldn't like to see their female protagonist kiss a guy. I don't actually believe that, but I'd be interested to know what MALE forum members think?

I think that the vast majority of gamers don't really care about the story of said game all that much, at least in greater detail. I also know the vast majority of gamers do not want to play a female character as shown by the 20% statistic provided by Bioware and the 20% statistic provided by Warhorse which they got as a result of a survey where they asked if people wanted to play a female character. Only 20% said yes.

Big companies will never give a fuck to cater to smaller market if it comes at a cost of a much larger one. Not many games give you the choice with regards to gender.

Mind you the 20% figure does not mean 20% of gamers are women, that's bullshit logic right there to link the number of female gamers to the overall number of gamers who want to play a female protagonist.

 

[dragonbird]

Mind you the 20% figure does not mean 20% of gamers are women, that's bullshit logic right there to link the number of female gamers to the overall number of gamers who want to play a female protagonist.

True. It's amazing what BS can come out when you mis-read statistics.

 

[luc0s]

Good example of the kind of thing that really does need to change.

And the reason they give, that male players wouldn't like to see their female protagonist kiss a guy. I don't actually believe that, but I'd be interested to know what MALE forum members think?

I wouldn't mind playing a female protagonist kissing or even having sex with a guy. But that's because I'm not one of those people who self-identifies with the protagonist. Even when that protagonist is a creation of my own (my Skyrim characters for example), I still see that protagonist as a separate entity. It's me and him, or me and her, but not me as him or me as her, if you get what I mean.

But I guess when people start to identify with these protagonists as if they themselves are this protagonist, then it can feel a little weird when the protagonist starts making out with someone of your own gender. When you get the feeling "I am the Dragonborn" instead of "I'm playing a game in which I control the Dragonborn", the events that will happen to the Dragonborn will obviously feel a lot more personal. For me it doesn't feel personal at all though, because I always keep that distance and always feel "I play a game in which I control the protagonist" or "I play as the protagonist", never "I am the protagonist".

As far as Tomb Raider goes I like the look they have given her this time around. It looks relatively practical for all that climbing, falling, fighting and stuff. I've seen a lot more positive comments about her new look than bad ones. I've yet to play the game though, it's sitting in my backlog at present so I can't say much about her treatment in game. Fortunately the criticism the developers received hasn't stopped them from planning a sequel. I hope that just because something may attract criticism or be difficult doesn't stop developers from making games with female protagonists

I think the problem I have with video characters that are dressed in an impractical and perhaps deliberately sexy fashion is that it seems like they haven't dressed themselves, someone else has. If I'm planning on going rock climbing or doing some parkour moves I'm not going to dress in high heel boots and a mini skirt. If you won't dress a male character in arseless chaps and nipple rings to go and save the world than perhaps it's not a good idea to dress your female character that way either. I think the same thing applies for story elements as well. If you won't do a certain thing to a male character then perhaps rethink doing it to a female character.

My only problem with the new Tomb Raider is that they changed Lara Croft from this strong, sexual, confident and powerful woman to this meek poor little thing that goes from one horrible situation to another, in which I constantly felt reminded that women are weaker than men. I like the old Lara Croft because she was NOT weaker than men. Hell, in the E3 trailer of Tomb Raider 2 we even see Lara going into therapy after the events of Tomb Raider. While this is of course pretty damn realistic, it again makes me feel this isn't the Lara I knew and loved.

Yes, I understand that these new Tomb Raider games are prequels of sorts, where Lara is on her path to become that strong, confident, sexy and powerful woman we all knew and loved, but still.

 

[StaGiors]

My only problem with the new Tomb Raider is that they changed Lara Croft from this strong, sexual, confident and powerful woman to this meek poor little thing that goes from one horrible situation to another, in which I constantly felt reminded that women are weaker than men. I like the old Lara Croft because she was NOT weaker than men. Hell, in the E3 trailer of Tomb Raider 2 we even see Lara going into therapy after the events of Tomb Raider. While this is of course pretty damn realistic, it again makes me feel this isn't the Lara I knew and loved.

Yes, I understand that these new Tomb Raider games are prequels of sorts, where Lara is on her path to become that strong, confident, sexy and powerful woman we all knew and loved, but still.

She was not portrayed weaker than men, in my opinion. For example when Alex was gone, she was the one to run after him, not Jonah and definitely not Whitman. She was just portrayed as a 21 year old (girl), thrown in a really shitty situation. I'm sure I would look just as weak and scream just as much, thrown in a situation like that. And I would probably die a lot faster.

 

[227]

I think the problem I have with video characters that are dressed in an impractical and perhaps deliberately sexy fashion is that it seems like they haven't dressed themselves, someone else has. If I'm planning on going rock climbing or doing some parkour moves I'm not going to dress in high heel boots and a mini skirt. If you won't dress a male character in arseless chaps and nipple rings to go and save the world than perhaps it's not a good idea to dress your female character that way either.

I don't disagree, but there have been certain examples of male characters with equally impractical clothing:

Kuja in Final Fantasy 9. Also, I'd totally buy a game where the world gets saved by a hero with assless chaps and nipple rings. Hell, I'd pick up the collector's edition if the devs came out and said that no one would react to his clothing, treating him as though his attire is entirely normal. I'd buy two if there was a scene in the snow where he exclaims, "I'm freezing my ass off, here." Maybe that's just me.

I also know the vast majority of gamers do not want to play a female character as shown by the 20% statistic provided by Bioware and the 20% statistic provided by Warhorse which they got as a result of a survey where they asked if people wanted to play a female character. Only 20% said yes.

Do you have links for those? Googling didn't seem to turn anything up. I can't even tell what Warhorse is other than a film.

What are the chances that the survey was of a limited, insular community that doesn't actually represent gaming as a whole? I mean, I'm sure there are people who would refuse to play a game with a female PC, but 80%? That doesn't sound right at all. Tomb Raider sold what, 6 million copies? If that 80% of people who don't want to play as a female PC translated into sales, then would it have sold over 20 million copies with a male PC? If it doesn't affect sales, then should taking the desires of your fan base into account even be an option? After all, that's how Bioware games ended up bogged down in fan service.

 

[CostinRaz]

Tomb Raider sold what, 6 million copies? If that 80% of people who don't want to play as a female PC translated into sales, then would it have sold over 20 million copies with a male PC? If it doesn't affect sales, then should taking the desires of your fan base into account even be an option? After all, that's how Bioware games ended up bogged down in fan service.

Tomb Raider is a franchise that has existed for close two decades and has had a movie staring Angelina Jolie and has a massive marketing campaign. Despite that the game did not sell as well as they expected.

Sure. The survey actually showed that only 20% preferred to be able to choose between male and female at least for Kingdom Come, not strictly that they wouldn't want to play a female character.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1294225970/kingdom-come-deliverance/posts/728309

And here's the ME3 statistics: http://gamemoir.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/mass-effect-stats.jpg

18% female Shepards.

 

[227]

18% seems low, but I'd believe it. I wonder if people ragequitting the game after a single playthrough because of the ending had something to do with that?

Tomb Raider is a franchise that has existed for close two decades and has had a movie staring Angelina Jolie and has a massive marketing campaign. Despite that the game did not sell as well as they expected.

As well as they expected, no, but about as well as is realistic for a popular game. Final Fantasy is an even longer-running series than TR (and also has a movie that Alec Baldwin, Steve Buscemi, and Donald Sutherland lent their voices to), but FF13 sold around the same amount.

Interestingly, FF13 also appears to have a female PC, yet it outsold FF12 and sold about as much as Final Fantasy 10 did in the same amount of time. The latter is a venerated classic in the series for some reason, so I suppose that means something, especially given the problems FF13 had with freezing/destroying PS3s.

 

[CostinRaz]

It's actually very consistent with ME2 statistics:

http://bulk.destructoid.com/ul/1883...eyre-used-for-20100903105831289_640w-620x.jpg

People need to wake the fuck up to a reality: Not that many people give a damn to play a female protagonist. Also the 40% of gamers are women statistic is a fucking piece of shit. It's based on a survey done in the United States, as much as America goes "WE ARE NUMBER ONE" Europe has a larger gaming market then US but the number of female gamers there is considerably lower ( roughly 10-20% ).

 

[luc0s]

It's actually very consistent with ME2 statistics:

http://bulk.destructoid.com/ul/1883...eyre-used-for-20100903105831289_640w-620x.jpg

People need to wake the fuck up to a reality: Not that many people give a damn to play a female protagonist. Also the 40% of gamers are women statistic is a fucking piece of shit. It's based on a survey done in the United States, as much as America goes "WE ARE NUMBER ONE" Europe has a larger gaming market then US but the number of female gamers there is considerably lower ( roughly 10-20% ).

Trust me, the number of female gamers in the USA is also a lot lower than 45% (it's 45% according to the latest survey). The reason why we see such high numbers of female gamers is because the survey doesn't discriminate between people who play triple A games on their PC and people who play Candy Crush Saga on their mobile phone. Most female "gamers" are just chicks who play a bit of Candy Crush and Farmville on their phone and on Facebook, maybe some of them play a few console games on occasion, I know a fair few female gamers who play primarily on a Nintendo DS (my mother included), but if we would only focus on the people who game a significant amount of time per week (say 8+ hours a week) and/or play big, long and/or deep titles such as The Witcher or Final Fantasy, male-to-female ratio will look completely different.

 

[Blothulfur]

Whatever the numbers I hope we get better female characters, like Kreia, Philippa, Cass from New Vegas, etcetera and less of the cutesy, twee and idiotic murderers whom infest the medium at the moment. I think CDPR and Obsidian are the only two developers who you can look at at the moment to make good female characters, what with all of Biowares being cursed by the idiocy and barely defined nature of their products, and catering to the "people" of the BSN, while Bethesda is still a hiking simulator producer.

Better and more realistic and substantive female characters enrich the gameworlds, and so benefit even those of us who only usually play men. I was always a bit saddened that in the Legacy of Kain Amy Hennig did not have a good female character to interact with in some manner, other than brief appearances from Ariel. Vorador's bride always interested me, and Umah could have been so much more.

Edit: Mind you that being said I was reading some right playing the victim idiocy other day, kid said he played the Witcher 2 and at the Dethmold killing scene with Roche, he felt traumatised and unsafe. What a twat, yeah cause pixels are gonna get you, dumb fucker. Makes you wonder how they live in real world when they're so fucking precious?

 

[Lieste]

I also recognise that a voiced character does involve extra costs, and would consider that to be an acceptable argument for NOT doing it in a lower-budget game. But maybe they should consider doing female-only more often if there are such budget constraints. (So I'm on the fence as far as this week's AC scandal is concerned)

I'm totally *not* on the fence on this. It sucks.

They hyped the reason for not doing it as being "doubling the cost"... which implies a 'doubling of the budget'... but really only actually means a few percent of the budget... as the animation and voicing is a part of, and not the whole game.

Not a game I am interested in, but the cheapness of the "promise and backtracking" in such a whiny way (to my ears) bugged me.