Filavandrel - The worst ST Legendary from PoP Expansion?

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rrc

Forum veteran
Initially I thought Fiavandrel was an OKish card. And I thought that, even though, it is super costly, it can play for a good value. But the more I think about it, I feel like Filavandrel is the worst Legendary in PoP expansion (among Francesca, Simlas, and Filavandrel). When I think about what kind of deck I want to build after HoS expansion, I am 100% sure I will try the new handbuff. But Filavandrel doesn't seem to fit into the deck.

Hear me out. Play out a game in your mind. If you don't draw Filavandrel in R1 his value drops significantly. Drawing him in R1 or not makes a HUGE difference, just like Sheldon and Aglias. Except that Sheldon/Aglais can generate more value and can even be a wincon if we draw them in R1. Filavandrel is not. Drawing him R2 would still put him in a better spot, but still significantly weaker and R3, he might as well be a dead card, playing for 7-10 points max. But the price for not drawing him is significantly higher as he is just much much costlier than the other payout cards.

Now, assume the scenario you draw him in R1. You have an idea of what you want to play and most probably it would be either at 6 strength (Harvest/Orb), 8 strength (Council) or 10 strength (CoF, but I sincerely hope this becomes 9P). Playing him ranged would most probably mean you are losing the round as it can give super junk options. So, when Filavandrel is at that strength, YOU HAVE TO PLAY HIM! You can't take the chance of not playing him in that turn as a random boost may go to him and completely render him useless (by completely useless, I mean playing him in Ranged and getting options Waylay, MakingABomb, DryadCaress, The Rune, etc.) At this point you are already ready to remove him from your deck. This pressure of "You have to play right now or you are screwed" is a horrible state as the opponent may play a dangerous engine or an Order card you have to remove immediately. So, basically Filandravel can make you choose between "Do you want to take the chance that I will become a horrible 12P card or you want to lose the game?" This aspect of 'play him right now' is unacceptable in this era where there are plenty of remove-or-lose cards in the game.

I am not done yet. There is one more aspect which makes me want to remove him from my imaginary deck already. When you are playing handbuff, you most probably play Torque, and most probably you play devotion so that you draw him consistently. And I would assume you would want to play the 'Boost a unit in your hand by 3' strategem as it gives the most value. If Torque hits Filavandrel, he is already at 7 and would need a boost (or 3 boosts) to be useful. Every turn, you will be under pressure that you will have to be ready to commit Filavandrel, probably your costliest unit in the deck in R1, because, otherwise, he can play a 4+4PSpecial for a 12P.

Overall, I feel like people will try him and get screwed because they drew him or because they didn't.. people will screwed because random buffs land on him or they didn't.. people will be screwed because he had to be commited prematurely and when you are not ready. All this for a 12P card? I feel like it is a huge gamble, much more gamble than playing Francesca and praying that she doesn't get removed, but for 12P.

What do you think? Play out a game in your mind, best case, worst case scenarios and what conclusion do you arrive at?

[Disclaimer: I am the guy who thought Simlas is a junk over-costed low-pointslam card. So, I am sure I am missing something here. But no matter how much I think, Filavandrel doesn't seem to be a good choice in any of my imaginary Invigorate decks. Not when he is at 12P.]
 
You are still claiming that Simlas would be bad ?
Regardless, I would say that Filavandrel is still better than Francesca and (with the current cardpool) Tissaia.
 
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DRK3

Forum veteran
Ah, i can already spot an rrc thread from miles away... :ohstopit:

I agree Simlas will definitely be better than Fila. Although i think Francesca will be the worst of the 3 legendaries, not sure though.

Like you said, his ability makes him very conditional, and there's quite a high risk of him providing bad value, that's the death of any new cards, those never get in the meta, as even more than power, instant, always available value is the thing metadecks mostly rely on.

Maybe he needs to be 6 base strength (would that be too much?)
Or perhaps, his ranged ability changed so the options it gives are the specials with provisions closest (but still equal or below) to its power value, so that if you boost him to 9pts, you dont get 3 4pr options...
 
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I like the analysis because it shows you though a lot on it. Everything seems correct and I agree with most of your points (specially the idea of Fia being like a time bomb in your hands) but, as you pointed, there are many factors that could change the results of your... study. Let's wait and see, but thanks for the good reading.
 
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I disagree with some of your grimmer gameplay scenarios, and some of the potential challenges do seem kind of fun to me - and yes, I still consider Simlas a bad card, because it's not fun - but I do agree that the card seems a bit overpriced. Not sure why something as fiddly as Fil is priced the same as the dumb pointslam Simlas, who is a lot more consistent and less brickable. Even if you hit Fil's potential and timing perfectly, basically I'm saying you create and play THE ABSOLUTE best card you were looking for (which will never be close to Simlas's consistency, EVER), you are probably playing a tutor, which, in a handbuff deck is not really that good, since your big payout cards should already be in your hand, you know, getting "buffed." And in a nature-HB hybrid, handbuffs might be so tight that you won't get to Fil 10. Shaping nature (as bad as it still is) might be a good target at 9, but my guess is the majority of the time you will be creating the Harvest or the orb (or Zoltan's company, yeah!), which is something a sorceress can do just about as well for a third of the price. MAYBE there are some provision buffs incoming for ST higher end specials (Call to 9? WoB to 10? Shaping nature to 8? Saov to 7? Eh, eh?) and that's why his price is that high? Otherwise I have no idea, honestly. I thought 11p would be a good price for him at first glance, but after some thought, I think it's a solid 10p card.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
You are still claiming that Simlas would be bad ?
Regardless, I would say that Filavandrel is still better than Francesca and (with the current cardpool) Tissaia.
I am not claiming Simlas is bad. I just checked and due to my bad English you might have got confused. I used "thought" and "is" (this 'is' should have been 'was'). I like Simlas and even clarified in this forum a few times that I was wrong about him when I thought he was bad. I use Simlas in my Nature's Gift deck for Dryad Caress or Tempering in R1 on blue coin to escape the round and in R3 with Eithne for a 20 point swing, and will use him for Bountiful Harvest in my Nature's Gift deck or Invigorate deck after HoS.

The only reason I am rating Filvandrel lesser than Francesca is because of his steep price. If Filavandrel is at 10P, then I would rate him better than Francesca. A card being junk or weak or unusable not only depends on the ability, but also due to the cost. Francesca is bad due to her ability and Filavandrel is worse due to the steep cost. We are not going to see Francesca or Filavandrel getting played, due to these two reasons. I tried Francesca many many times (I think more than 20+ games) and realised she is just a 10P removal target and even after the huge risk, the value she brings is not that great. Filavandrel also I will try, but the 12P is just too much and on top that he being super awkward to have in hand.

Also, I only compared him with ST cards.
Ah, i can already spot an rrc thread from miles away... :ohstopit:

I agree Simlas will definitely be better than Fila. Although i think Francesca will be the worst of the 3 legendaries, not sure though.

Like you said, his ability makes him very conditional, and there's quite a high risk of him providing bad value, that's the death of any new cards, those never get in the meta, as even more than power, instant, always available value is the thing metadecks mostly rely on.

Maybe he needs to be 6 base strength (would that be too much?)
Or perhaps, his ranged ability changed so the options it gives are the specials with provisions closest (but still equal or below) to its power value, so that if you boost him to 9pts, you dont get 3 4pr options...
Francesca vs Fila and why I rated him, I had discussed above. Yes, as you said, if there is a risk that a card can play for bad value, it will hardly see play. 6 base strength will justify his 12P. In this powercreep era, why is he at 12P for playing a special card? All the boost he received is the value of the other cards which gave him the boost. So, him+the card he spawns and plays is all that value he brings. Even if he plays CoF or Council, it is just too damn highly priced at 12P. May be the devs put him at this price because "Gord" exists?

Yes, if he can work like Nilfgardian Knight of Beta (Revealing cards based of the power of the card), where he wold guarantee at least one card closest to his power as you mentioned, then it would be good.

At his current price, current strength, he is a DoA (Dead On Arrival) IMHO. People will try. You will see him played in first 1 or 2 months and then he will join Francesca and Munro and the 9P Spell card etc.
 
TBH Filavandrel looks like most of the time he will be expensive at 12p just like fran who either should be 8-9p and/or get a counter reduction. So it will suck to heatwave her. I wait to be proven wrong
 
Tissaia is the worst card of the PoP expansion for now. Filavandrel is close, however with him you still have higher chances of getting value rather than being a win-more card such as Tissaia is. Will Filavandrel get played? Yes, max 2 weeks after it is released. After that the meta will settle and the card will most likely be excluded.

What I don't understand is why an epic card such as Torque is better than a legendary card such as Filavandrel. From a design perspective this is rather baffling. Torque has the potential to play for a lot of points without even being played compared to Filavandrel. Filavandrel needs to be 10p to at least be a consideration. Far from being autoinclude.
 
I am not claiming Simlas is bad. I just checked and due to my bad English you might have got confused. I used "thought" and "is" (this 'is' should have been 'was'). I like Simlas and even clarified in this forum a few times that I was wrong about him when I thought he was bad. I use Simlas in my Nature's Gift deck for Dryad Caress or Tempering in R1 on blue coin to escape the round and in R3 with Eithne for a 20 point swing, and will use him for Bountiful Harvest in my Nature's Gift deck or Invigorate deck after HoS.
[...]

My bad. What confused me was.
[...] But the more I think about it, I feel like Filavandrel is the worst Legendary in PoP expansion (among Francesca, Simlas, and Filavandrel). [...]
 

rrc

Forum veteran
My bad. What confused me was.
Damn.. so much confusion causing statements from me :p I added Simlas and Francesca to indicate that within the ST legendaries we got this PoP expansion (not saying it is THE Worst in ST or saying that he is THE worst among all Legendaries in PoP), Filavandrel is the worst. Didn't realise that it can give an impression that I consider Simlas is also a bad card, which is not.
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I disagree with some of your grimmer gameplay scenarios, and some of the potential challenges do seem kind of fun to me - and yes, I still consider Simlas a bad card, because it's not fun - but I do agree that the card seems a bit overpriced. Not sure why something as fiddly as Fil is priced the same as the dumb pointslam Simlas, who is a lot more consistent and less brickable. Even if you hit Fil's potential and timing perfectly, basically I'm saying you create and play THE ABSOLUTE best card you were looking for (which will never be close to Simlas's consistency, EVER), you are probably playing a tutor, which, in a handbuff deck is not really that good, since your big payout cards should already be in your hand, you know, getting "buffed." And in a nature-HB hybrid, handbuffs might be so tight that you won't get to Fil 10. Shaping nature (as bad as it still is) might be a good target at 9, but my guess is the majority of the time you will be creating the Harvest or the orb (or Zoltan's company, yeah!), which is something a sorceress can do just about as well for a third of the price. MAYBE there are some provision buffs incoming for ST higher end specials (Call to 9? WoB to 10? Shaping nature to 8? Saov to 7? Eh, eh?) and that's why his price is that high? Otherwise I have no idea, honestly. I thought 11p would be a good price for him at first glance, but after some thought, I think it's a solid 10p card.
How is being in constant angst every turn "would be receive the buff or not? I am screwed if he doesn't and I am screwed if he does this turn" is fun? :p :p :p

You consider Simlas as a bad card, as in he is lame; but he is a good card as he can give good tempo in Nature's Gift deck (and the notorious Spelletel decks). I use him in my NG deck and in R3 with Eithne alone, he gives amazing tempo and treants for my Gezras (before my Gezras dies instantly, but giving me 12 points). If not for Simlas, ST would still be in garbage tier, right?

But even in your post, you were unsure how to use him in either handbuff deck or NatureGift deck as he is awkward in both cases. But I have no hope that ST specials will get any buffs they badly deserve and need because Gord exists :mad:

Filavandrel should be 10P to be playable or he also gets the same devotion as Torque. Not drawing him in R1 and R2 has too much impact for a 12P card and if you draw him in R3, he is a 12P Sorceress. Lets hope he at least gets the buff in 3 to 4 months later when no one plays him.
 
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From my perspective Fila is the worst SC legendary.

Francesca can be very powerful if you can play double heatwave, double oneiro + Alzur and so on.
Regarding Fila: I think he will be tried out by some players and maybe even be succesful in some games, but many times he will just be an expensive Dol Blathanna Sorceress.
 
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I don't see Simlas as weak. Makes an excellent row punisher with a couple of lacerates in deck. That 38 point potential swing is very nice.
 
The only really good legendary ST got was Simlas, but that makes up for the very oppressive bronzes like Sorceress, Seer, and of course the new Whisperer+Scenario+Orbs combo. I expect Harvest to be equally good. Francesca is high risk, high reward and potentially game winning IF she sticks, a lot like Cahir or Melusine. Fila I don't know, looks a bit underwhelming but let's see. All in all it hasn't been a bad expansion for ST, but I really hope handbuff can somehow break Spella'taels dominance.
 
How is being in constant angst every turn "would be receive the buff or not? I am screwed if he doesn't and I am screwed if he does this turn" is fun? :p :p :p
Look at it like this. You can have a different idea of what you're shooting for with him, depending on your game plan, but at this point the "best" usable range for him is 8-10, so the "angst" only really begins once he hits that range AND you have an active "random" handbuff engine on the board. So by then, depending on how you're actively handbuffing him, you're probably about 6-7 turns into this thing, since Fila is probably not the only unit in your hand, unless you've buffed him with the armor right away, in which case you should be prepared to use him. Now, as to being forced to use him once you do his that range, that I think is part of the fun. Do I create a Council right now? Do I have a good target? Or do I wait a turn and risk getting buffed, what then? Well, then I can create an Echo card. Do I create Shaping Nature or do I wait another turn and get Call? You'll have to be considering this based on how the match is going, which, to me, is fun. And EVEN if you do get screwed and overbuff and miss all the usable provisions, in the worst case you're spawning a tempering or something and really there's still a decent chance you'll spawn a gold from the range, so the floor is like 9, which is not terrible for a 12p card. The trouble here is, where exactly is the 12p ceiling??
You consider Simlas as a bad card, as in he is lame; but he is a good card as he can give good tempo in Nature's Gift deck (and the notorious Spelletel decks). I use him in my NG deck and in R3 with Eithne alone, he gives amazing tempo and treants for my Gezras (before my Gezras dies instantly, but giving me 12 points). If not for Simlas, ST would still be in garbage tier, right?
Yeah, he's +8 with Eithe on the board in R3 (as long as he plays nature), but really only +4 is his (because everything that plays nature is +4, and Nature's Gift is just absolutely nuts and has been "secretly" since it's been added), which isn't bad, tempo-wise, but playing him in R3 means you managed to have 2 bronze nature specials left in the deck, which means you didn't brick, probably didn't bleed R2, AND didn't thin your deck, which seems to be Simlas's intention? So you're playing it awkwardly, and you're playing through that "angst" of possibly bricking it in R3 and being stuck with a 7-point 12p card, all for the "point slam" which is mostly due to NG and which, to me, lacks elegance, and is, therefore, "dumb." (the card, not you playing it :D). Would ST still be garbage tier without Simlas? Maybe, but again, it gives me very little satisfaction to use him, because it's just not an interesting card. In other words, I'd rather be angsty during active gameplay, being able to control the outcome in some way, rather than during mulligans, where I can draw that stupid tempering and brick everything.
But even in your post, you were unsure how to use him in either handbuff deck or NatureGift deck as he is awkward in both cases. But I have no hope that ST specials will get any buffs they badly deserve and need because Gord exists :mad:

Filavandrel should be 10P to be playable or he also gets the same devotion as Torque. Not drawing him in R1 and R2 has too much impact for a 12P card and if you draw him in R3, he is a 12P Sorceress. Lets hope he at least gets the buff in 3 to 4 months later when no one plays him.
You're right, I'm not sure sure, and I will probably try him in both decks pretty quickly, and somebody smarter than me will probably come up with a deck that fits him best, so we'll see. I do agree, as I mentioned before, that he should be 10p. The ceiling being Call of the Forest, and him being 2 HP thicker than Fauve, 12p is just too expensive.
 
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rrc

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Yeah, he's +8 with Eithe on the board in R3 (as long as he plays nature), but really only +4 is his (because everything that plays nature is +4, and Nature's Gift is just absolutely nuts and has been "secretly" since it's been added), which isn't bad, tempo-wise, but playing him in R3 means you managed to have 2 bronze nature specials left in the deck, which means you didn't brick, probably didn't bleed R2, AND didn't thin your deck, which seems to be Simlas's intention? So you're playing it awkwardly, and you're playing through that "angst" of possibly bricking it in R3 and being stuck with a 7-point 12p card, all for the "point slam" which is mostly due to NG and which, to me, lacks elegance, and is, therefore, "dumb." (the card, not you playing it :D). Would ST still be garbage tier without Simlas? Maybe, but again, it gives me very little satisfaction to use him, because it's just not an interesting card. In other words, I'd rather be angsty during active gameplay, being able to control the outcome in some way, rather than during mulligans, where I can draw that stupid tempering and brick everything.
Well, in my NG deck I have 2x Dryad Caress, 2x Tempering, 2x CircleOfLife, 2xRebuke :eek:

I had used Simlas in R1 for escaping the round, just as a tempo play (faction Portal :shrug:) playing Tempering.. I had used him in R1 once against Melusine for 2x Rebuke, and hell I had even played in R3 for 2xCoL to kill UnseenElder. Simlas had hardly bricked in my deck and I have to be just a little bit careful in mulligan. Never been in the angst during the turn whether Simlas will brick or not. If the deck has only one or two options, then it is a high risk and I had seen people playing him for a single orb.

I like Simlas not just for the pure tempo plays, but he gives the options and flexibility (of course, that depends on the deck) and with adequate support in the deck, he can do cool things. I once did CoF into Simlas into 2xTempering on R3 while I had a Whisperer on board and Eithne and another Symbiosis Engines. Such a great feeling to suddenly be 15 points down to 15 points up :coolstory: and to top that, my Gezras waiting to get me 12 points and dying instantly due to the treants.
 
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Well, in my NG deck I have 2x Dryad Caress, 2x Tempering, 2x CircleOfLife, 2xRebuke :eek:

I had used Simlas in R1 for escaping the round, just as a tempo play (faction Portal :shrug:) playing Tempering.. I had used him in R1 once against Melusine for 2x Rebuke, and hell I had even played in R3 for 2xCoL to kill UnseenElder. Simlas had hardly bricked in my deck and I have to be just a little bit careful in mulligan. Never been in the angst during the turn whether Simlas will brick or not. If the deck has only one or two options, then it is a high risk and I had seen people playing him for a single orb.

I like Simlas not just for the pure tempo plays, but he gives the options and flexibility (of course, that depends on the deck) and with adequate support in the deck, he can do cool things. I once did CoF into Simlas into 2xTempering on R3 while I had a Whisperer on board and Eithne and another Symbiosis Engines. Such a great feeling to suddenly be 15 points down to 15 points up :coolstory: and to top that, my Gezras waiting to get me 12 points and dying instantly due to the treants.
The whisperer does not belong in an NG deck ;)
 

rrc

Forum veteran
The whisperer does not belong in an NG deck ;)
Hehe.. it does in my deck :beer:

But I understand why you say that. Whisperer can easily row block you in long R3. I calculate for the worst possible scenario and even play Whisperer pretty late (purposefully reducing the value I can get) if I have access to Gezras and want to have space for him to jump to Ranged. Whisperer in NG deck is very risky.
 
From my perspective Fila is the worst SC legendary.

Francesca can be very powerful if you can play double heatwave, double oneiro + Alzur and so on.
Regarding Fila: I think he will be tried out by some players and maybe even be succesful in some games, but many times he will just be an expensive Dol Blathanna Sorceress.
The expensive Dol blathanna sorceress is forest protector. Even the new similar ng card costs less than it
 
It's not the worst card revealed, but, it's up there. The fact that it will be so luck dependent, drawing on R1, means that you'd realistically need matta-huri to get good value from him, which loses devotion and Torque. And devotion Torque blows this card away in value. And even then, you've got to have excellent timing with playing him and buffing him. Not an easy card to use, probably less than 10% of the ST playerbase will use him.
 
I see potential in him, but he is definitely way over-costed for the pure theoretical points he can provide. A buff to his provisions and/or body (probably both) should be all he needs to be better.
 
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