First Impressions of the changes made to the Epilogue (Spoilers)

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First Impressions of the changes made to the Epilogue (Spoilers)

Just finished an Enhanced Edition run of W2 (Ioverth’s path) and here are some of my thoughts of the presentation of the final Act and Epilogue in terms of the cosmetic changes made between the original version of Assassins of Kings and the Enhanced Edition (of course spoilers below).

Just want to note that I've been playing the Witcher games since the beginning with W1 – also a massive fan of the books. Not saying this means my opinion is the best but I don't want people saying I don't understand the game or the themes. Massive fan of CD PROJEKT - I think they are the best developers gaming has seen in a long time. Long may they exist and long may they produce such excellent games - both in the Witcher franchise (I want not only Witcher 3 but Witcher 4 and 5 :) ) and others.

Got to say that while I enjoyed the new content and quests to ACT 3 I was bit disappointed by some of the more cosmetic changes made to the game's final hours in the way it affected my immersion.

For example, I didn’t like the cosmetic changes to the Meeting of the Kings at the end of ACT 3 – the banners and the people in the seats of the theatre (with the crowd sound effect) being the main thing. I felt it took away from the idea that Loc Munne is an isolated place on the edge of the known world and that the Kings and delegations had travelled here with small retinues for a closed and exclusive meeting. Implying that lots of people are there and watching just takes away from the mystery of the place and the closed nature of decision making that I imagined the power structures of the Northern Kingdoms to be (from my readings of the books and the games). I liked the representation of the meeting in the original form better - it felt more like powerful bastards carving up the world for their own benefit (which it is) than implying that thousands are watching their discussions.

I also did not like the depiction of the aftermath of the massacre – way too many bodies on the ground and the bodies in the fountains and piles. I preferred it when I was simply told of the massacre and could imagine the nasty nature of it for myself - imagining that the bulk of the killing had occurred elsewhere in the complex (specifically the Redanian sections). Being shown the effects of the massacre takes a degree of the personal imagination away from the storytelling and just makes it too visceral for my liking.

The massive numbers of bodies on the ground also took away from my original view of the place as isolated and the meeting made up of small contingents and delegations from Redania, Kaedwen, Temeria, Aedrin, Nilfgaard, and the Mages. Now it seems like thousands upon thousands were there at the meeting and thousands died – which takes away from my way of understanding Loc Munne and the meeting itself. It just seemed to be too big on the scale for what I originally imagined when I first finished the game– a desolate city inhabited by a small group of people trying to reshape the world. Similar to the way in which the meeting is now presented it just takes away from the isolation theme of Loc Munne and these power structures garving up the world in private (see above about the meeting itself).

Other cosmetic changes also annoyed me in terms of the final confrontation.

The red fire sky when Geralt is talking to Letho is (in my opinion) less effective in setting atmosphere. The bloody sky takes away from the impression I made of the game - that the two are practically alone in the ruins of the city now and that it has come down to just them in a final showdown. The fire sky and the bodies around them don’t help in creating that mood of isolation that I felt the first time playing. When the sky behind them (especially when Geralt was talking) was a crisp, blue, clear sky with the wind howling around them, I got the impression of isolation and dread. Now it just feels a bit too over the top with the red sky.

It feels like the game is trying to tell me what to think about the situation – rather than me forming my own opinions.

Letho twirling the diamond around also didn’t really work for me – made him feel more like a cartoon villain when I know he’s more complex than that.

I appreciated the extra cut scenes and the hard work CD PROJEKT must have put into them but I don’t really think they add much in terms of the story and damage something of the atmosphere of the epilogue that I created for myself. They just aren’t my thing.

This is not to say that I think the changes made are rubbish - they just don’t do it for me. I’m sure the changes help for others in improving their engagement with the game, I just didn’t need them to imagine what was going on in between ACT 3 and the Epilogue, I did that for myself. I agree with the idea of “show don’t tell” in general but I just think the allusions made in the original version of the epilogue were better for some of the themes the games explore on a deeper level (isolation and unease being the key for me) than just going out and showing it.

I wish there was a way for me to keep the new quests for ACT 3 but keep out some of the changes made to the epilogue. :( Perhaps an option should exist for the way the Epilogue is presented ("Classic" being what it was in the original game and "Enhanced" for the cosmetic effects added recently) if it were possible :)
 
Damn, I knew I wasn't so shocked the first time I played through the ending with all those corpses lying about in the Epilogue and also the massive pile behind Letho while he is waiting for you.

lol thanks for clearing that up for me :p , very nice dissection of the graphical changes made to Act III

I agree with your points, the way you point everything out, it feels abit over the top or maybe even abit forced but I'd say it works very well with the new Outro they added. It gives you that feeling of absolute chaos, everything has kinda reached its low point, amping up the stakes for The Witcher 3 :D

Edit: oh and a Disable Enhanced Edition option just like the DLC ON/OFF checkmarks would be really nice to see those differences
 
Well if you want a more isolated feel, you should save triss.
When you save triss, then there is no massacre, no piling bodies.
And Letho twirling the diamond around suddenly lessens his character?? wtf next time you'll tell me geralt with a ponytail is a worse character than without.
 
I just finished my first playthrough of the Enhanced Edition using the same path as Rhys.
I actually agree with Rhys in his assessment of the "Body Count" during this ending of the game, in my mind
Loc Muinne was never a Metropolis of thousands of people. I found it to be totally out of character with the
overall play experience. The game is so different and mature, those piles of bodies just take away from that
overall feel. Especially when you go to meet Letho it takes away the ambiance of the meeting.
I am wondering if it might have been Dev team fatigue creeping in.
I do like the cinematics between the chapters, the new intro is awesome, the new quests I encountered on this
play through were fantastic and the new outro makes me wish for W3 even more. Thanks CDPR for making this a truly
unique game I wished more game developers would embrace the mature audience that is out there, for we need
escapism too.
 
teh_dude - my problem with the diamond thing is all about what it possibly does to the presentation of the Letho character within the themes of the game. I just feel (solely from my perspective - not saying any one has to agree with me) that Letho twirling around the diamond weakens the "atypical and mysterious antagonist" theme (that Letho is) and gives the perception that he is more like your typical bad guy (complete with villain twirling of moustache - in this case twirling diamond lol) when we all know he's much more developed and multifaceted than that. It doesn't destroy Letho's character it just gives a perception which I don't think fits him. For me Letho is too calculating to waste time on such an obvious display as fiddling with the diamond as he sits there waiting for Geralt.

Besides Letho tell's you he swapped the diamonds - adding the diamond did nothing to add to either the story, the exposition, or to his character. As I said it's a cosmetic change and one I just don't like.

Gearlt having or not having a pony tail doesn't really add or detract anything from his character or how the player perceive him. Letho twirling around the diamond like your typical villain would has a impact on the perception a player makes of his character (a negative perception I feel).

I know saving Triss prevents the massacre - but since my favourite ending is reversing the curse on Saskia and ensuring a Free Vergan and Pontar Valley it's impossible to have both that ending and avoiding the massacre.

Again it's not like I think the changes are rubbish - they are clearly of high quality and add something to the game. I love the Intro and all the added quests and fixes - my problem is simply with the cosmetic changes - which is a testament to the power of this game and the series to successfully move and engage a jaded bastard like me with its themes and ideas.

All I am saying is that these cosmetic changes don't really work for me as an individual player.
 
Thank you for the thoughtful response Rhys, I can now more clearly see your point and can understand your reasoning.
I probably spent too much time on biowares forums, because I first thought that you meant that those changes ruined the entire game for you, but I see that this isnt the case.

But at the positive site, it really is a testament to CDprojects skills as developers that they are able to craft such a massive compelling game, and yet manage to keep the criticism by fans to minor cosmetic changes that may or may not be for the better or worse.
 

Aver

Forum veteran
Loc Muinne is deserted place. Almost nobody lives there. But many people came there for this special occasion.
 
teh_dude - No worries man. I agree completely with you - it is amazing that my only gripes with the Witcher 2 EE are cosmetic and personal preferences which can't really be accounted for or predicted by the developers. It's a testament to how well done this game really is that I have no problems with the story, the characters, the gameplay, the music or anything else - it's just a few cosmetics (and even then I can see the value in each of them). The game is far from ruined for me from the changes - I just have a few nitpicks of cosmetics which are basically irrelevant compared to the 10/10 experience of game the Witcher 2 is.

Aver - Yeah I get that, but even then I don't think thousands would be present (even for a summit). It's such an isolated place I don't think you would be able to get more than a few hundred in each retinue.
 
I agree with much you say, but I've also noticed something that pissed me off completely (could be a bug in my game though). After I've fought/let Letho go, Geralt, Triss (and Roche/Iorveth) moves to the door (and Geralt turns the wheel aso). Before, it was the theme music of Assasins of Kings that played, but now it is something else, and it destroyes much of the great feeling I got in the end of the game. Anyone else noticed?
 
Bleor said:
I agree with much you say, but I've also noticed something that pissed me off completely (could be a bug in my game though). After I've fought/let Letho go, Geralt, Triss (and Roche/Iorveth) moves to the door (and Geralt turns the wheel aso). Before, it was the theme music of Assasins of Kings that played, but now it is something else, and it destroyes much of the great feeling I got in the end of the game. Anyone else noticed?

Yup. It shows just how much the soundtrack matters in our emotions, doesn't it?

What got me though, from a Roche playthrough, was seeing Skalen and Cecil hanging during Dandelion's summary. I don't know if I'll ever be able to play Roche again :(
 
dragonbird said:
Yup. It shows just how much the soundtrack matters in our emotions, doesn't it?

What got me though, from a Roche playthrough, was seeing Skalen and Cecil hanging during Dandelion's summary. I don't know if I'll ever be able to play Roche again :(
Yeah, totally agree.Never really liked the outcome of helping Henselt anyway, but got even worse with that. But again with the ending soundtrack, I hope they change it back, for the ending doesn't feel quite right without it.
 
Bleor said:
I agree with much you say, but I've also noticed something that pissed me off completely (could be a bug in my game though). After I've fought/let Letho go, Geralt, Triss (and Roche/Iorveth) moves to the door (and Geralt turns the wheel aso). Before, it was the theme music of Assasins of Kings that played, but now it is something else, and it destroyes much of the great feeling I got in the end of the game. Anyone else noticed?

I noticed, and while I prefer "Lady Bug" as a soundtrack over "sorceresses" (the new one), I think the latter is more appropriate. The Lady bug one was too happy for the lack of a better word, considering what had happened in Loc Muinne (a massacre is unavoidable) and considering what is to come. Plus the Lodge was defeated and I see that piece of music as a reminder of that.

"Sorceresses" fit better in a bittersweet ending imo.

And completely disagree with Letho being diminished by playing with the diamond. ANd pretty much everything else the OP said.

While I loved Act 3 in the original, the new additions imo make it much better and makes it feel more epic without diminishing its substance.
 
Letho playing with the diamond is awesome. Totally fits into his trolltastic personality.

I too enjoyed the bleak, windswept silence of the original act 3...but I like that the enhanced edition creates consequences for siding with Saskia. Nonhumans will live free but mages will die horribly. Siding with Triss means justice for the mages, and stymieing of Nilfgaard's plans, resulting in a more stable North overall - thus the lack of a massacre in that ending. There needs to be a reason to ponder the choice of Triss or Saskia/Anais - because otherwise Triss' survival and the lack of evidence of a massacre make it too obvious to just side with Iorveth/Roche's mission.
 
I actually will retract a statement I made. After watching the old ending, I must say that replacing Lady Bug was not necessary. LadyBug was a great track and it added emotional satisfaction to a great ending. Sorceresses is good and perhaps more fitting the context, but it lacks the umf of LadyBug.
 
Bleor said:
I agree with much you say, but I've also noticed something that pissed me off completely (could be a bug in my game though). After I've fought/let Letho go, Geralt, Triss (and Roche/Iorveth) moves to the door (and Geralt turns the wheel aso). Before, it was the theme music of Assasins of Kings that played, but now it is something else, and it destroyes much of the great feeling I got in the end of the game. Anyone else noticed?

They were my only problems with the new changes.
The massive amount of blood and corpses as well as the dark sky and atmosphere wasn't something I liked very much, even though it makes sense.

And when I noticed that they changed the music that played when you dealt the final blow to Letho, and as you walk out of Loc Muinne, I was pretty dissapointed. The music that played before the changes was what made the scenes so epic... Now when I saw them I didn't get the same feeling.

And yes, what KoP said makes a lot of sense and makes the music fit in but it still ruins the epicness that I liked so much about the Pre-EE ending, rather than the depressing and dark ending I got now. It just had me feel sad and empty when I completed it, rather than the hyped up and epic feeling I had in the old ending.

Apart from that you did a great job, CDPR!
 
The *massive piles* of dead bodies felt way overdone - hundreds of bodies on every corner, whereas we probably see under a hundred NPCs in the city overall. However, the added cutscenes and mutilated corpses of mages really helped accentuate the consequences of the failed council.

I didn't feel the significance of the post-council brawl in the city pre-EE - a few corpses left over from skirmishes, some mangled civilians, nothing too gruesome. EE portrays the Loc Muinne pogrom in all of its harrowing glory - a brutal slaughter of every defenseless mage the loyalist soldiers could get their hands on, faithful to the spirit of the Thanedd massacre. I think this addition really helped me feel that the Loc Muinne massacre was an event of world-changing significance.

The pile of bodies in the Temerian camp's fountain does add atmosphere to the Letho scene if you did not choose to save Triss, though.
Triss admits that Letho rescued and protected her from the rampaging soldiers - the pile of bodies behind him is likely to be his work. Going to such lengths to protect Triss despite no personal gain - it does influence the decision the player has to make regarding Letho's fate.

Letho twirling the diamond, as if chuckling at the prank he pulled on the sorceress that wanted him dead, is simply a nice touch and adds to his personality.
 
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