FNFF: full auto vs. SP armor rating

[blank_redge]

FNFF: full auto vs. SP armor rating

So, I've been reading over the full auto rules.

The questions initially came up from crunching numbers for the .22 mini-gatling in Chrome Book 1 (pg. 50, bottom of the page.)

CP2020 core rules, Friday Night Firefight

Full Auto, close range, add +1 for every ten rounds fired. So, if you dump 40 rounds (ROF 40), that's +4 to hit, before any other modifiers.
For every point of success over the To Hit (Diff. 15 for Close range), one round hits the target.

If someone has an Average REF (6) and a statistically average SMG skill (5), as long as they don't roll a 1, they're hitting.

Now, how would you interpret these rules?

Let's say the attacker rolls a 9. Are you rolling 9D6 for damage?

Damage and penetration. A single .22 does 1D6. It'd be defeated by an armored shirt with SP8, for a single round. Do we still roll 9D6 (One D6 for every round landing,) or do we assume that since an individual .22 wouldn't penetrate, 9 of 'em wouldn't, so they take the minimum base damage of 9 points (1 point per round that lands.)

 

[guidokpd]

I would say roll 1d6 9 times. Yes, that would be stopped by the lightest armor. I suggest that if someone insists on using .22 they had better be good enough to hit the target in an unarmored location.

 

[blank_redge]

I would say roll 1d6 9 times. Yes, that would be stopped by the lightest armor. I suggest that if someone insists on using .22 they had better be good enough to hit the target in an unarmored location.

Well, if it's all hitting the same location, wouldn't rolling 9D6 work out the same?

Also, since this is under the full auto rules, we're assuming that all nine shots land in a relatively small group, probably within one second. It would kind of be like getting hit with a shotgun blast, but instead of buckshot, it's a hail of small bullets.

Which brings us back around to: would you roll all 9D6, with remaining damage not soaked by armor getting through, or would you assume that each round does the minimum one point of damage (since the individual .22 round wouldn't breach the armor.)

 

[Sardukhar]

I just roll once and use that for each hit.

NOt a huge fan of random damage really. Slows things down. I appreciate you'll see damage variation from what organ it hits or armor vulnerabilities, but certainly in a case like this where none of the rounds penetrate, I just roll once.Maybe at the end of the barrage, habve that location knocked down a point or 3 in SP.

And even saying it all hits in the same location is unlikely. Bullets are weird, shooters move, recoil, target movement...I'd probably say 1/3 hit the first location and the next two thirds around that location or something.

I also don't have 1 point of damage minimum -unless- the armour is breached. Gotta breach it to do that one minimum.

1 point of damage is a lot in FNFF. It forces a Stun check and it's 1/5 of the way to Serious Wounds. You don't get that damage unless you beat the armour.

 

[blank_redge]

Don't have the book handy, but I'm pretty sure that any damage that gets though, even after BTM, can't be reduced to less than one, which would indicate bruising / cracked ribs / etc. from being shot.

Again, I recognize that an individual .22 has a tiny amount of mass, but (for purposes of the discussion,) I would think a swarm hitting in the same general location (let's say the spread is contained to about a palm's width) in rapid succession would likely be felt, even through Threat Level III or Metal Gear.

Mostly, I'm trying to get a grip on the Full Auto rules, for BIGGA guns (7.62 rifles with ROF of 30.) If I'm crunching the numbers right, 30 rounds of 7.62 should decimate most things (which, conveniently, lines up with a lot of real-world ballistics.)

A vest with the trauma plate in should stop a single round of 7.62 mm ball. 30 rounds in the same area, though, should still hurt like a motherf?!ker, and possibly deform or damage the trauma plate enough that the wearer is still taking some kind of injury, if not taking a round or three.

 

[guidokpd]

As I remember it, by the rules the damage does not stack. Each round is counted separately vs the SP. Any damage that gets by the SP causes a min of 1 damage. It does have to get past the SP. This could happen by each round reducing the SP by one each time it is penetrated. The .22 does not have the damage to breach any decent armor and therefor does no damage.

You can house rule it however you like. I did. My house rule is anytime you are shot you take 1 stun. One of my players hates this, but he also wants to change it so that BTM will reduce damage to 0. Told him he could run his games as he likes, but in my game if it gets past armor it does a min of 1 damage.

 

[Maelcom404]

Well, for full auto, as you said, let's say it's close range.
You choose how many bullet you wanna shoot, do your roll, +15, good, you have your number of bullets (now add your bonus, etc...)
Anyway, in most case, full auto weapon are deadly in close range, so don't get an headache for nothing.

Just use one roll to determinate the whole damage of everybullets (sure, you can use each roll for each bullets, but when you have 20+ bullets who hits the target, it's quite boring to watch your pal rolling for 5mn), don't forget to deal with the armor state (you remove 1pts to your armor each time damages goes througt it), alors, you can use the "damage location" tab on your sheet to randomly know where bullets hits (mostly on full, you can spray bullets in the arms, chest, face, etc...).

It's the easiest and most "realistic" way to play them I figured out, with of course, the stun damage, etc.. if the bullet doesn't goes throught the armor.

So, if you dump 40 rounds (ROF 40), that's +4 to hit, before any other modifiers.
For every point of success over the To Hit (Diff. 15 for Close range), one round hits the target.

If someone has an Average REF (6) and a statistically average SMG skill (5), as long as they don't roll a 1, they're hitting.

Now, how would you interpret these rules?

Let's say the attacker rolls a 9. Are you rolling 9D6 for damage?

Ref 6 + Skill 5 = 11
Add your roll : 11 + 9 = 20.

You fired 40 rounds
Short Range : 15 = You put 5 bullets in your target, + your "+4 bonus" = 9 bullets.

Now, just deal with the usual "hit & damage" rules with armor and all those stuff.

You also can make a roll for the character behind your target, lost bullets are deadly too... (mostly when there are 35 remaining of them)

 

[blank_redge]

Re-read the rules for Full Auto last night, as well as the armor rules.

From FNFF:

FULL AUTO

This attack is best used to cover a wide range of targets or to make sure a single target is dead, dead, dead. A weapon on full auto is a bucking bronco; hard to hold on a target more than a few meters away. Using a scope or taking aim is also impossible. Therefore, range is critical in the full auto technique.

The full auto option is based on the rate of fire (ROF) of the weapon. If attacking more than one target, you must divide the ROF of the weapon by the total number of targets (round down,) then roll for each target individually.

FULL AUTO RULES

At Close Range:

For every 10 rounds fired at Close range, add 1 to your Attack Total.

At Medium, Long, and Extreme Ranges:

For every 10 rounds fired at Medium, Long and Extreme ranges, subtract 1 from your Attack Total.

For every point of success over the required To Hit roll, one round hits the target, up to the maximum ROF for the weapon.

NUBMER OF HITS = NUMBER OF POINTS GREATER THAN TO HIT NUMBER.

Now, does anyone else besides me read that as the ROF, on a single target, is the To Hit number? ie 20 rounds fired, 20 To Hit, 40 rounds fired, 40 To Hit.

Also, I was mistaken about that "minimum of one damage" rule. Any damage that *gets through* the armor can't be reduced to more than one, but armor *does* have the possibility of stopping all damage that reaches you.

Thanks for helping me work it out, everyone. =)

 

[guidokpd]

Re-read the rules for Full Auto last night, as well as the armor rules.

From FNFF:


Now, does anyone else besides me read that as the ROF, on a single target, is the To Hit number? ie 20 rounds fired, 20 To Hit, 40 rounds fired, 40 To Hit.

I do not. The way I think it works.

The to hit number is calculated as normal. Short range 15. Firing 20 rounds at short range gives a -2. Makes the target number a 13. If the attacker has a ref of 6 and a smg of 5 gives them a base of 11.

Rolling a 9 gives a total of 20. This means 7 rounds hit the target or targets.

If the attacker is firing at more than one target you divide the rounds that hit between the targets.

One round is lost for each meter between the targets. If the 7 rounds are divided between two targets that are 1 meter apart 3 rounds hit each target.

If the 7 rounds are divided between 3 targets with a meter between each target 5 rounds hit. 2 rounds on the 1st target, 1 round on each of the other 2 targets.

You can roll for location and damage individually, grouped, or once and apply it to the same location.

 

[Maelcom404]

Now, does anyone else besides me read that as the ROF, on a single target, is the To Hit number? ie 20 rounds fired, 20 To Hit, 40 rounds fired, 40 To Hit.

ROF is the maximum shot you can fire in one turn, mostly based on how many bullets you can load in your gun.
In clear, let's take an AK47, the comon type has something like 30bullets, so it's ROF is 30.

Now, you can be all "I'm gonna empty this magazine", you do your roll, etc...
Wow, critical sucess! Someone's gonna eat a lot of bullets

Also, the ROF is the maximum number of bullets someone can be hit with (like, if you're lucky enought to get your 30bullets to hit, you can't put a 31's one, even if your roll says so)

As I understand the rules, the numbers of bullets who hits are the one confirmed by the roll, everything else fly by and misses.

 

[blank_redge]

How do you guys interpret the Full Auto rules, when engaging multiple targets?

You're supposed to divide the number of rounds between the number of targets. With two targets, ROF 30 / 2 = up to 15 bullets per target, ROF 40 / 2 = up to 20 rounds per target, etc.

Do you interpret the rules as shooting two targets as normal? ie -3 to both targets.

 

[Maelcom404]

How do you guys interpret the Full Auto rules, when engaging multiple targets?

You're supposed to divide the number of rounds between the number of targets. With two targets, ROF 30 / 2 = up to 15 bullets per target, ROF 40 / 2 = up to 20 rounds per target, etc.

Do you interpret the rules as shooting two targets as normal? ie -3 to both targets.

The book says that if you target let's say 3 guys, and your ROF is 30
You'll have to divide 30 by the number of Targets.
Now, your ROF by Target is 10 (max hit).
I don't think it has any bonus or anything, it's just a regular strike roll, but you have to divide your ROF by the number of target.
You empty your AK's magazine on three target, 10 bullets fly to each one, now you do your roll (a roll for each target) and know how many hit the targets.
As simple as that.

 

[blank_redge]

I'm inclined to agree; hosing an area with a Full Auto blast is different than aiming and firing at three individual targets with, say, a handgun.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Yeah, the rules stipulate that you can split automatic fire between targets at 1m intervals, though it doesn't require you to split that fire equally, as I remember. you could split 30 shots between 3 guys who are all within 1m of each other like this; 15 - 10 - 5. if you so choose.

Now, personally, I have not used real automatic weaponry, though I have seen it used first hand. I don't care how good you are, short of putting the end of the barrel in contact with your target, you are never going to hit your target with every round on full auto.

I would be inclined to roll a dice and add an amount of hits based on the "to-hit" roll: 30 shots, roll a 15, get D10+10 hits, as an example.

 

[Sardukhar]

Thank-you Chris, for adding in the VERY important 1m interval rule. WIthout that, it's easy to FUll-Auto hit three guys. WITH that, it becomes a lot harder. And don't forget cover!

By the time you factor in range, target movement, your movement if any, gap between targets, cover, visibility issues, wounds...you are going to see a -lot- of missed rounds. Don't forget to decide where they go!

Unless the shooter is a superb (8+) rifleman, is smartlinked, has a WA 2+ weapon and is unwounded, we see mostly missed lead past the Point Blank Range.

In fact, last time we played, my NPCs got smart, firing full auto at Long Range. Instead of wasting all that ammo, they would fire 3 3-rnd bursts. SUre, they took -3 and -6 for the second bursts, but they don't eat the -2 or whatever for the 20 rnds fired, most of which were misses after the target number of 20 anyway.. And, most importantly, they could call shots.

So even if they only got a total of 21, they would still get 1-2 hits, in the head or neck or back of the knee...and then two more bursts.

Really worked out well, actually. At least, for the Majestic 12 agents...

 

[Calistarius]

That is pretty true to life though.

When I was in the military, and with the very limited assault rifle training my unit had (not a combat unit really, I was in the artillery and my particular units job was to be the guys who could calculate how to aim the cannon to hit where and when we needed them to hit, of course my unit does travel and set up close by to the artillery units so some knowledge with an AR was part of it... anyway)... we where taught that going full auto was close to never a good idea, and that if you where to shoot more then one round at a time you should at most go for short bursts of roughly 2-4 rounds.

Because you can only carry so much stuff with you, and ammunition ready to used in magazines do take up a fair bit of space, and some weight at that. Our regular "full gear" amount of ammunition consisted of 4 30-round magazines I think it was (of course, I do think we probably had space for more... and in wartimes we probably would carry more... but this was what I seem to recall us carrying with us when we where out doing our thing). So by going full auto you would blow through one of those magazines in about 3 seconds (rate-of-fire for the AK-5 being about 650-700 rounds per minute), and you could probably go through 4 of them in less then 20 seconds, but definatly in 30 sec.

We all got to unload a full mag on full auto with live rounds one time (at the end of one of our longer woodland marches)... to get to feel what it felt like... it was very exhilarating really. Of course, no where near as exhilarating and adrenalin pumping as standing behind three Haubits FH77 as they all simultanious fire a full-load, 4 round semi-automatic burst, in about 10 seconds. 155mm calibre rounds, which is just over 6 inches... "full-load" as in how much propelant is used to send the shell flying. That's power... I could feel the shockwaves from that straight into my chest and core, and as a result I could feel the adrenalin start flowing through my body.

 

[Nomad_Xenon]

The 1 meter interval rule did't appear in the Cyberpunk 2020 core rulebook, didn't it?

I recall it from the nefarious v3.0 edition.

Have I missed some official source along the way?

 

[Sardukhar]

The 1 meter interval rule did't appear in the Cyberpunk 2020 core rulebook, didn't it?

I recall it from the nefarious v3.0 edition.

Have I missed some official source along the way?

It's spelled out in the section for autoshotguns, but applied to all autoweapons, since you can't really fire one round ahead of you and the rest behind you on full auto at 600 rpm. Thus, 1m gaps.

 

[wisdom000]

http://datafortress2020.com/fileproject/details.php?image_id=1204

 

[Nomad_Xenon]

Ok!