FP VS TP - perspective matters

[Traesket]

I don't recall seeing a single person asking for FPP to be removed, just adding the option of TPP as well.

Although most likely just a badly phrased question, the poll in this thread is
"What perspective do YOU want in CP game ?"

With the answers allowed being "TP", "FP" and "Both". More have chosed "TP" than "Both".

 

[sleazy89]

The 'seamless' online gaming was truly in experimental territory. They were promising something that had never been done before.

The switchable TPP mode has successful precedents (Skyrim, Fallout).

Fallout and Skyrim TPP are utterly ugly, especially the latter. Combat feels impossible in third person and also the character looks like he's floating above the ground

 

[DCKLGOG]

And to clarify further - what do you mean by should have? Why should they inform us about that but not other, also very important design decisions like creating your own character, driveable vehicles, stats, ranged/melee combat etc?



What do you mean online gaming was in experimental territory? Based on the logic of your post, online gaming has so many successful precedents that there's not reason it cannot be developed.

They should inform us about something that they know is so pivotal to the point where they HAD to say it was important to the way their game would be experienced. Other design decisions like creating your own character, driveable vehicle, etc. etc. add to the richness of the gameplay, yes... but they do not massively impact the way it will be experienced. FPP can change a LOT, and not necessarily for the better.

https://www.pcgamer.com/the-witcher-developer-awarded-7-million-for-seamless-multiplayer-city-creation-research/
The government gave them a grant for it. Seems original enough to me.

 

[Rawls]

I still don't get the "they didn't tell us about FPP soon enough." They said it on the first day they talked about the mechanics of the game in detail. It's not like they announced it after pre-orders or anything. I think it's totally understandable to be upset about no TPP (which full disclosure is my preference, but I like both), but I don't get the argument about timing.

The switchable TPP mode has successful precedents (Skyrim, Fallout).

Financially successful. I would argue both games had worse overall gameplay specifically because they accommodate both perspectives at all times. Both views are serviceable. Neither is great. Not ideal if you're trying to tell a story-driven RPG rather than a sandbox.

 

[gregski]

They should inform us about something that they know is so pivotal to the point where they HAD to say it was important to the way their game would be experienced. Other design decisions like creating your own character, driveable vehicle, etc. etc. add to the richness of the gameplay, yes... but they do not massively impact the way it will be experienced. FPP can change a LOT, and not necessarily for the better.

https://www.pcgamer.com/the-witcher-developer-awarded-7-million-for-seamless-multiplayer-city-creation-research/
The government gave them a grant for it. Seems original enough to me.

Sorry, but "seamless multiplayer" sounds at least as vague and general as "mixed TPP/FPP".

 

[HolLoHH]

Beats me too.

Just look at the questioner results, there is a lot of people who want TPP. I am finding it actual horrifying even moderators are getting into childish arguments with potential customers in regards to TPP vs FPP. Saying TPP option is not good for the game is just silly, it gives the players a choice, and still keeps the FPP. (More the player choice the better.)

This was really not something I expected from CD project RED. Or immersion lies, saying 3rd person was not immersive is a huge blow to what made CD famous in first place, the amazing Witcher series.
Hell, what do we know about 3rd person immersion. God of War not immersive, nor was horizon zero dawn or last of us and the list goes on....

 

[Denis_Kravchenko]

I believe that CDPR is trolling us)
Concerning FP mode, it is cool. When you played Tabletop game you have never seen your character, cause you are the one. I believe it will be good experience. I am concerned about close and hand to hand combat though, but if it will be close to Dishonored combat style it will be great. CDPR can make good combat system, I am sure of it. Combat system in tabletop is rather brutal and I believe we will have some sort of finishers in CBP2077,

But main thing is that we will not be playing tabletop game we will be playing video game so people wants to see their avatar, to see how cool he/she is, to feel it... not just using characteristic numbers.

And I also prefer to watch finish moves from Third person perspective. To see all the armor and arms, cybernetics details.
But main part for me is hand to hand and close combat. There are blades in tabletop. Hand to hand encounter look more spectacular in third person perspective than in FP (Don`t forget main principal of the game to be cool and look cool, but I can`t see how cool my character is cause I don`t see him))).
I played all the Witcher games. Main thing I loved in them is attention to details in everything (starting from armor and finishing with sound).

+ CDPR are using RedEngine and I believe they have possibility to make third person.

 

[Obstructionist]

Fallout and Skyrim TPP are utterly ugly, especially the latter. Combat feels impossible in third person and also the character looks like he's floating above the ground

That's just because Bethesda, for whatever reason, picks the worst positioning for their camera. Grab the one of the TP Camera mods or even adjust the X/Y/Z position in the config file manually. Not sure why Beth places their camera the way they do but it takes all of about 10 seconds to fix it. /shrug

 

[TowarzyszBroni]

This is why it's first person.

 

[sgtaov]

the best option is the third party and the ability to switch

 

[ghostxix]

I'll just say I'm shocked at the number of people and the intensity with which people are adamantly against giving other people an option for TPP. I don't recall seeing a single person asking for FPP to be removed, just adding the option of TPP as well. Guess it shouldn't surprise me being the internet and all, but arguing so adamantly against someone else getting something they would enjoy when it costs you absolutely nothing, the level of vindictiveness just boggles the mind. :cautious:

We need a psychiatrist in here to explain this phenomenon.

Just because some people argue whit some opinions doesn't mean the are against giving you TPP, just like nobody is afraid you want to take away FPP. Read more opinions and what people write.
Some people want to TPP its fine but trying to prove some how FPP is just not enough immersive(queastion of preferences) or asking why customization is in game if its not TPP, saying this is not what everybody expected from CDPR. Or even trying make point by proving its shouldn't be hard to add. Or is should be in game because bethesda games has FPP/TPP.

Problem is you think we are here somehow against you ant what you want, and it's just not a case. If you start write opinion on internet people will react to it. Especially if your subjective opinion is about what you prefer/like.

Try reading some of the posts people write and excluding yourself from subject matter.

 

[Triffid77]

Just look at the questioner results, there is a lot of people who want TPP. I am finding it actual horrifying even moderators are getting into childish arguments with potential customers in regards to TPP vs FPP. Saying TPP option is not good for the game is just silly, it gives the players a choice, and still keeps the FPP. (More the player choice the better.)

This was really not something I expected from CD project RED. Or immersion lies, saying 3rd person was not immersive is a huge blow to what made CD famous in first place, the amazing Witcher series.
Hell, what do we know about 3rd person immersion. God of War not immersive, nor was horizon zero dawn or last of us and the list goes on....

Its true TPP isnt as immersive. Thats not subjective. (Im not saying it's not your preference.)
Its from the characters perspective. There is no way to be more immersive.

 

[DCKLGOG]

I still don't get the "they didn't tell us about FPP soon enough." They said it on the first day they talked about the mechanics of the game in detail. It's not like they announced it after pre-orders or anything. I think it's totally understandable to be upset about no TPP (which full disclosure is my preference, but I like both), but I don't get the argument about timing.

Financially successful. I would argue both games had worse overall gameplay specifically because they accommodate both perspectives at all times. Both views are serviceable. Neither is great. Not ideal if you're trying to tell a story-driven RPG rather than a sandbox.

At one time, they said "We listen to our fans."
How are they supposed to live up to that if they announce their decision only after they have fully committed to it? It's like saying to a brother
'I'll listen to your opinion before marrying that woman,'
***Goes off and gets engaged to a woman who's bad for him and returns to seek that brother's advice.***
'Why didn't you tell me earlier?'
'Well, I'm not married. I'm engaged.'
'Break it off, it's not good for you!'
'Can't. We're engaged. But I am seeking your opinion before I marry her.'
'But you just said you won't change anything!'
'True. But I am still seeking your opinion before I marry her.'

What's the point of saying that you'll listen, but then intentionally sneaking it past us instead of talking it out with us after the decision is made? We definitely don't control CD Projekt Red, but CD Projekt Red is just pretending to listen if they listen only after it is too late to change anything.

You can focus on 1st person and release 3rd person as an add-on or DLC with no guarantees attached. Where there's a will, there's a way.

 

[Traesket]

I am finding it actual horrifying even moderators are getting into childish arguments with potential customers in regards to TPP vs FPP.

Why? They might have opinions on the matter? Also, their arguments have not been childish. Acting like any kind of argument being childish however...

Saying TPP option is not good for the game is just silly, it gives the players a choice, and still keeps the FPP. (More the player choice the better.)

Adding TPP takes work and compromises FPP or presents a sub-par TPP which a company like CDPR don't want. and no, more choice is not always better because then you'd be sitting with a white paper in front of you right now.

This was really not something I expected from CD project RED. Or immersion lies, saying 3rd person was not immersive is a huge blow to what made CD famous in first place, the amazing Witcher series.
Hell, what do we know about 3rd person immersion. God of War not immersive, nor was horizon zero dawn or last of us and the list goes on....

No one is saying TPP is not immersive, they are saying FPP is more immersive especially in a city without vast open areas.

 

[Obstructionist]

Its true TPP isnt as immersive. Thats not subjective. (Im not saying it's not your preference.)
Its from the characters perspective. There is no way to be more immersive.

Unless I missed it where someone was able to quantify the immersiveness of FP vs TP that is actually the definition of subjective. Nothing pulls me out of the game experience faster than watching two floating hands in front of my face everywhere I look. Who does that irl? For me personally TPP is much more immersive.

 

[Trist43]

I wanted to take the time to adress this issue in a slightly different way, because I feel like this discussion is getting nowhere.

When I first learnt about Cyberpunk being a RPG with a first person perspective, I wasn't as surprised as others were. I was more... interested in this approach, I wanted to see what CDPR could do with it. I was, however, surprised by the resulting backlash. So, as one does, I spent some time scrolling through the trailer's comments on YouTube, and then I came here, to read what people where saying on this topic. I wanted to know why this announcement was such a huge issue for a lot of people. The answers were pretty clear, as we can see. So, here's my take on all this.

I think the real issue here is hype. Since it's announcement trailer, people have been dreaming about Cyberpunk 2077, fantacizing about the game they all dreamed of. But the thing is, with no informations on the game itself, we all ended up building our own version of it in our minds, the version we liked the most. With only The Witcher series as a reference of what a CDPR RPG can look like, I think it's safe to say that most people, if not everyone, assumed Cyberpunk would be a third person RPG. The key word here being "assumed", because nothing was confirmed, and we knew nothing of the game. It's no surprise then to see people's reactions. Cyberpunk is now becoming a real game, and you have to face the fact that it's different from the dream you had of it. The reality of it is that, everyone could fantacize about the game at their leisure, at the end of the day, we're not making the game, the developpers are.

As far as motion sickness is concerned, it's another story. Then again, we must add a bit of context. Firstly, motion sickness is not exclusively linked to FPS and other games in first person perspective (often, but not all the time). I've had motion sickness playing a third person action game (yes it was an old game with dated graphics, but still). Secondly, motion sickness is not linked only to the point of view of a game, it also depends on the performances of a game (worst performances = bigger chance of getting sick), the field of view, the graphics quality (dated graphics are more likely to induce motion sickness), and the animations (in FPP games, weapon bobbing and/or head bobbing increase your chances of getting sick), and more surprisingly it can also depends of the temperature of the room you're in (it may not induce motion sickness, but a wamer environment can worsen the feeling), and how well your gaming environment is lit. Yes, motion sickness is bad, I've had it a few times, on a TPP game as I wrote earlier, but also on many FPP games. It was never systematic, as I've completed FPP games without getting sick once, with some other games, I've been sick a few times, but not always. It really depends on many different things, not only the perspective of the game. You can also avoid motion sickness in many ways, having short gaming sessions is one, with pauses to rest every now and then, and never trying to tough your way through the nausea, trust me, it only gets worse.

My last point regards people disliking FPS, and games in FPP altogether. We all have different tastes, as far as I'm concerned, FPS games were never my favorites, I've played a bunch of them, some are great, some not so great. Would I play a TPP game over a FPP one ? Yes of course. Would I want Cyberpunk to be a TPP rather than a FPP game? No, I trust CDPR to do what's in the game's best interest. If they took this decision (probably knowing it will upset a lot of people), it's because the really thought about it. And look at it this way: Cyberpunk might be the game that will change your mind on FPP games !

In the end, I can understand why people are upset, but we're in no position to demand anything from CDPR. Yes the game might not be what you expected or what you wanted, but every last one of us is responsible for their own expectations, because before this E3, we knew nothing about the game. You wanted to play Cyberpunk, because it was Cyberpunk, and because it was by CDPR. Maybe all along, you wanted to play this game, not knowing that it might not be the kind of game you usually love.

 

[DCKLGOG]

Its true TPP isnt as immersive. Thats not subjective. (Im not saying it's not your preference.)
Its from the characters perspective. There is no way to be more immersive.

Maybe it's just me, but it's the little things that break my sense of immersion. Snapping in and out of my body during cutscenes. Not having eyelashes at the edge of my vision. Not being able to see my own body. Not being able to move each finger in isolation.

I'm not feeling that in 3rd person because the camera angle is basically sending the message that 'This is a dream... a very real dream, no doubt, but still a dream. Feel free to explore.' In First Person, one is brought up close to all the shortcomings of a world experienced only via a screen. In third person, one gets used to the perspective so long as it is constant. The reason TPP doesn't experience this is because it doesn't try TOO hard. When there is a lack of transitions, one forgets easily enough that the out-of-body view is not the way we should perceive the world and start thinking of it as the way the world should be seen.

I would conclude that our technology is still lacking. FPP will only be truly immersive if we have tactile feedback and controls throughout our body. Sort of like the matrix LOL

 

[z3r0_c001]

I'll just say I'm shocked at the number of people and the intensity with which people are adamantly against giving other people an option for TPP. I don't recall seeing a single person asking for FPP to be removed, just adding the option of TPP as well. Guess it shouldn't surprise me being the internet and all, but arguing so adamantly against someone else getting something they would enjoy when it costs you absolutely nothing, the level of vindictiveness just boggles the mind. :cautious:

We need a psychiatrist in here to explain this phenomenon.

It's because adding TPP = changing many aspects of the game and compromising their vision. If it was only so simple I wouldn't mind but it's not

 

[Triffid77]

Unless I missed it where someone was able to quantify the immersiveness of FP vs TP that is actually the definition of subjective. Nothing pulls me out of the game experience faster than watching two floating hands in front of my face everywhere I look. Who does that irl? For me personally TPP is much more immersive.

Are you serious? You are the character. Through their/your eyes. You talk about immersion as if your a drone pilot based at Norad a world away flying a drone over Afghanistan. Yeah theres a big separation there.
This is not subjective. Again, im not talking about your preference of playstyle.

 

[GW84]

Its true TPP isnt as immersive. Thats not subjective. (Im not saying it's not your preference.)
Its from the characters perspective. There is no way to be more immersive.

Immersion is subjective by default. I feel alienated from a gameworld by this perspective. Looking with my real eyes at a screen showing a digital rendering of a view isn't immersive to me in the slightest. Add to that the headaches this causes me while I try to make sense of this 'viewception' does dampen my exitement about the game.

Doesn't mean you can't find it more immersive, but its far from a fact.