FP VS TP - perspective matters

[Snowflakez]

Well, other than being asked "will there be third person", which is a future tense, and then answering that directly with a "no". That, to me, reads directly as there being no plans right now, to add a third person mode at any point in the future regardless of how the first person decision will be received (which, trust me, they discussed long before E3, that's obvious), but of course if you go by "well, they may change their minds", then that leaves everything open.

They might change their minds and cancel the entire game. How's that?

I got a pretty big laugh out of this. Sorry, everyone.

Agreed, by the way.

Turn off motion blur.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH- Oh, you're serious.

Sorry, man, not that easy.

 

[Terralventhe]

Adding a third person mode, when one doesn't exist, would also require an incredible amount of work. If the game has been designed as a first person game, then there's no player model there when you're playing.

Not entirely true. There's been a few first-person games where you actually do have a fully functioning model - though sometimes some of the animations are limited. Good example is the original Deus Ex where you could switch to third person using the cheat console.

Furthermore, the Borderlands argument arises again: If CDPR are in fact going to go with a multiplayer side-factor, and if it's one that involves being able to see other players' characters, then that does in fact mean that they would have had to animate the player model.

 

[GeometryOfShadows]

It's an entirely unrelated franchise, your mistake was assuming anything at all. I mean people seem to have expected a cyberpunk Witcher which...I dunno, seem's just obviously misguided?

Its done by the same company, on the same engine (well updated version of it).

Considering the old pictures that said it had mixed TPP and FPP, and that lots of RPGs do that, and that CDPR has only done TPP, i think it was a pretty safe assumption to make.

Clearly we were wrong, but its not a crazy thing to put those things together, not to mention other things i could come up with, and think that third person would be an option.

edited to fix the quote thing, oops

 

[exogenesis09]

W

Seriously, why do you hate it so much? Aside from people who get motion sickness (we'll get to that later) I have yet to see a compelling argument that doesn't boil down to "it's out of my comfort zone".

Let's see the complaints/arguments I've seen:

"I want to be able to see my character"

Cool, don't we all. But if that's your deciding factor into buying a game with potentially hundreds of hours of gameplay, then uhhh, do you even care about the game itself? I'm dead serious here. If you're make or break item is not being able to CONSTANTLY see your character, then maybe you need to rethink why you play RPGs in the first place. Maybe take up drawing. Customization is just as cool in First Person games. Hell, games like Planetside 2 are pretty much entirely financed around making your character look cool. You WILL be able to see your character, this honestly seems minor as hell (which is why I started with this).

"Third Person breaks immersion"

Well, that's entirely subjective, and just as many people will tell you opposite. Immersion though, is possible in both formats. It's all a matter of execution. Personally, I think arguing that being more zoomed out from the world increases your immersion in it is kind of antithetical as you're literally being physically removed from the action, but hey, you think it's better, fine. I get it. I've played very immersive Third Person games, not the least of which was CD Projekt's very own Witcher series. That said, if you think First Person isn't immersive, I submit that you haven't played the right games, and/or refuse to give First Person games a proper chance because you're acting on pre existing biases before you even start the game. What First person games have you played? This seems to be more of a lack of experience issue than an actual one.
That said, Immersion is subjective. This is CD Projekt's and Mike Pondsmith's artistic vision, not yours. If it's incompatible with you well, that's a you problem, not a them problem. Their job is to create art, not to create YOUR art.

"I lose situational awareness in First Person"

This is simply a case of, literally, git gud. Not to be too harsh with it but this is simply a case of you not understanding how to play a First Person game. You don't lose any situational awareness. You DO lose the ability to magically see behind you and you DO lose a MASSIVE field of view, yes, but you also gain more precise positional audio and a more detailed view perspective. And, I don't know if you were aware, but you CAN look around yourself. Situational awareness in First Person is simply a matter of taking a moment to LOOK AROUND. Situational awareness is a skill, and it's one that needs to be practice. Your skills may be atrophied or poor because you're used to the easiness of just having to look at the screen in Third Person, but it's something you learn, not something that's given to you by the style of presentation. Even in Third Person you have to teach yourself how to track movement. It's just lazier because you can look at the screen without moving. Situational awareness isn't beholden to the perspective, if it were, you wouldn't see high level play like you do in the Overwatch ranked matches or Siege ranked matches or Counter Strike Ranked matches or literally any other competitive First Person Shooter. Those people manage, and against far more unpredictable and dangerous opponents than any AI out there. They don't need a zoomed out FOV to find someone coming. And neither do you. You just need more practice.

"I can't tell where my body is in First Person."

Sure you can. Look straight ahead. Now look at the ground. Boom. There you are.

Again, this is just a matter of your lack of experience with said games. Positioning is very easy in First Person, just like it is in Third Person. It's just a difference between using your character as a reference point and using other objects as relative reference points. This is a skill, and a very basic one at that. You simply need to play more First Person games.

"Melee sucks in First Person"

And shooting sucks in Third Person. We all have concessions to make. Clearly they value shooting over melee. That said, there are games that handle Melee well in First Person. Condemned, Dishonred (any Arkane Studios game, really), Chronicles of Riddick, Fallout, etc... all have serviceable to really good first person combat. No, it's not gonna be The Witcher: Techno Edition, but that's not the point of the game either.

"I only play Third Person games"

Then maybe open your mind a bit more because you're missing out on great games. That would be like a shooter fan skipping out on The Witcher or something because he only plays shooters. Great games are great games, regardless.

Continued on the next post

I don’t really hate it. I just feel bad that it limits other people perspective of the game. It’s like a majority suggestion but then the authority denied their point of view. Try to be neutral here my friend. We are all finding reasons other than “immersion” factor of the game why TPP/FPP switch can’t be a thing to their point of view in Open World RPG Game sets in a futuristic world. Which is great to see in both Perspective point of view. You have to ask yourself that first and why? I have only 2 reasonable to answer that.

1.) It’s because we didn’t see an informative gameplay based on why it’s mainly for better to be first person perspective yet.
2.) They don’t give a f**k about TPP to make it fit in the game as an option because they are the developers.

Those 2 reason don’t offend me as we are not sure yet and CDPR are taking advantage to that. Peace.

 

[xer21]

Actually, you are arguing for a preference. Your hubris is showing by making the assumption that those of us stating our intense dislike for FPP don't know what we're talking about.
.

Nope, I'm just supporting CD Projekt's right to make decisions regarding their own game and questioning the point of judging a game that literally no one has seen gameplay of.

I've stated it before and I'll do so again. I've been gaming for decades and I know what camera perspectives I like and which ones I don't like.

Time =/= to knowledge. I've been gaming for decades too, I'm just not so close minded as to shut off new experiences outside of my familiar trappings.

FPP just doesn't do it for me. It really provides me with no fun at all. It's distracting. TPP is much more immersive and fun for me. For me, FPP really lowers the fun quotient of a game to the point where it's no longer desirable.

.

what were the last 5 First person games you tried and how long did you play them? Things change you know.

There's no objective right or wrong here, but all the FPP advocates seem to think there is.

I'm not advocating for First Person, I'm questioning how you can judge a game based on one mechanic without ever seeing it in action, and I'm questioning people who act like CD Projekt personally insulted them.

 

[Sydanyo]

Not entirely true. There's been a few first-person games where you actually do have a fully functioning model

Well, fair enough...but is 2077 one of those games?

 

[SuperViv]

Man, the FPP announcement felt like a punch to the stomach. Been rooting for this game since the first teaser, but being locked into a single perspective is a deal breaker for me.

Oh well, at least that saves me 1-2 years of hype and some bucks?

 

[SigilFey]

Can mods actually go as far as to add a whole TPP camera?

From what I've seen in the past with lots of other games, FPP and TPP are tricky to implement simultaneously because you need to sort of build the game twice. If I build a FPP game, it's not like the 3D model for my character persistently exists in the game. It's usually just the camera itself and some disembodied arms holding weapons.

To add a TPP mode, I need to build a separate 3D model, of my character, and new versions of all the animation packages, and shadows, and etc., etc., etc. Then, I need to code a totally different camera to work with the TPP aspects, like auto-zoom and panning to avoid things obstructing my view. I'll need to code controls to operate differently if I don't want movement to feel stilted. I need to ensure the AI knows where "me" is, as the focal point will be different whether I'm in FPP or TPP.

It's actually quite a big task to do both. I would imagine that going back through a huge game and adding all of the stuff for TPP retroactively would a huge task. To get it functioning well would probably be a monumental task. Then, the bug-hunting would begin...

Anything is possible, but I'm pretty sure this would be a legendary job of work.

 

[brumakkiller]

Not entirely true. There's been a few first-person games where you actually do have a fully functioning model - though sometimes some of the animations are limited. Good example is the original Deus Ex where you could switch to third person using the cheat console.

Furthermore, the Borderlands argument arises again: If CDPR are in fact going to go with a multiplayer side-factor, and if it's one that involves being able to see other players' characters, then that does in fact mean that they would have had to animate the player model.

curious though, wasnt GTA 5 completely third person, but they later added a first person mode that worked well? and wasnt that far off from launch, i remember using it a little bit to see what it was like

 

[wall2211]

I'm treating the words as they are. I'm not reading into them. Saying that they may add a third person mode later, when there's no indication that they're planning to do that, is the false hope here.

I did word it partially wrong but you are also very incorrect in coming on here to a form specifically full of hopeful fans and saying that they said something that they didn’t say. A CDPR guy actually responded on here saying they’re looking at the feedback so don’t come saying they blatantly said something they didn’t. You’re probably one of the ones telling them forget all of us.

 

[Wothan_]

I do believe that most of the kneejerk reactions are based on a lack of information.
As in, we know very little of the game, so imagination runs wild, the biggest fears can't be dismissed or found to be true.
ignorance in this case, just fosters further discussion, like the Sun vs Night debate

 

[Rawls]

Eehhh.. The Witcher 3 dropping a Cyberpunk 2077 reference with all but outright stating that Ciri went to and lived in Night City sort of makes it related..? Sorta, kinda? 'ish?

Well she didn't say THAT exactly. She said she hid in a world were everyone had flying machines and metal in their head. I mean I'm sure it was meant as a reference to the Cyberpunk universe, but no telling where she was in the world.

 

[Suhiira]

Seriously. that's the only functional difference between third person and first person in terms of motion sickness.

Not for everyone. Some people suffer more dramatic effects from the condition then others ... duh.
A little less elitism and more sympathy for others might work wonders BTW.

 

[metalmaniac21]

Jesus, stop overreacting, people. You're fighting the wrong enemy. If some of you suffer from motion sickness, then switching to TPP won't do much good, only doctor's attention will.

Natural causes for motion sickness and generally FPP being uncomfortable are low FOV and input delay (source engine game, bioshock infinite). If CDPR are aiming for excellence, we'd be able to set desirable FOV anyway and input delay should be a non-issue.

Get a grip. Especially you, @wisdom000

 

[xer21]

W


I don’t really hate it. I just feel bad that it limits other people perspective of the game. It’s like a majority suggestion but then the authority denied their point of view. Try to be neutral here my friend. We are all finding reasons other than “immersion” factor of the game why TPP/FPP switch can’t be a thing to their point of view in Open World RPG Game sets in a futuristic world. Which is great to see in both Perspective point of view. You have to ask yourself that first and why? I have only 2 reasonable to answer that.

1.) It’s because we didn’t see an informative gameplay based on why it’s mainly for better to be first person perspective yet.
2.) They don’t give a f**k about TPP to make it fit in the game as an option because they are the developers.

Those 2 reason don’t offend me as we are not sure yet and CDPR are taking advantage to that. Peace.

third reason: It requires a lot of technical work including new animations and addressing rendering issues. sticking with only one perspective simplifies things.

People seem to think it's simple to just toggle and it isn't. go look at third person mods for FP games and vice versa. they are awful.

 

[Terralventhe]

Well, fair enough...but is 2077 one of those games?

Well, I offered my view in the rest of that very post: It depends on how CDPR plans to do its online multiplayer content, and whether we can see other players' characters and models during gameplay. If yes, that means that the game already has fully fleshed out models and animations for player characters, which gets around the biggest obstacle around there, which is the one that SigilFey was talking about as well.

So long as there is a model with animations attached to it, then a third-person mod is viable.

That being said, I can't speak for any 'UI' effects that would have to be modded and retextured.

 

[spookyxelectric]

Well she didn't say THAT exactly. She said she hid in a world wear everyone had flying cars and metal in their head. I mean I'm sure it was meant as a reference to the Cyberpunk universe, but no telling where she was in the world.

It was a red herring. The Witcher world has elves, dwarves and trolls, Cyberpunk does not.
Ciri in fact went to... Shadowrun's Seattle.

 

[Snowflakez]

go ahead. literally it's simply just a matter of increasing the FOV. Seriously. that's the only functional difference between third person and first person in terms of motion sickness.

No, mate, it's absolutely not. You are categorically wrong. Factually incorrect.

 

[kingsword]

It'd mind-boggling how CP77 sub-Reddit buries any criticism about this in minutes, thank God CDP has a decent official forum to talk about it without getting censored by the masses. It's still rather disappointing how so many people cannot even tolerate options and just want it their way and in none other when it's technically very possible to do both without compromise.

They're even attacking and disbelieving people who say they get sick playing. One of the worse communities I came across. Good to see the people here have sense and respect to others.

 

[Suhiira]

Same, although I worry about melee combat. Nearly always done poorly in FPP.

Yeah, melee and unarmed (assuming it's in the game) will be "interesting".