Yeah I don't understand the whole "pretend to be the character" at all. I'm not inclined to pretend I'm V any more than I was to pretend I was Geralt when playing The Witcher games or pretend I'm Batman when playing Arkham Asylum and so on. Some games have a completely set character and some allow you to shape the character to various degrees but imagining I'm the character isn't something I do or would be interested in. I'm playing for a good story and sympathetic/interesting/believable characters not some kind of fantasy. When I play an RPG that lets you create a character I want to make various characters that let me see various scenarios, endings, relationships, and different ways the story plays out. None of those characters are me and I don't pretend I'm any of them. If you like to do that, then fine but a lot of people are like me and see characters as characters and not self-inserts.Some ppl really don't understand wha RP means... seriously. Character don't need be like you, to be you, there are plenty RP where you play certain role given to you... not you, but someone whom you are, like idk pirate, you play LARP where you character is pirate (you don't know his/her whole backstory/childhood, you have certain goals, given to you by gamemasters, etc.), but you create him, by chosing what happened in certain moments of scenario, etc... please stop with this whole "character can't be me cause I don't live in Cyberpunk", or something like that, cause it's not help in your point of wiew about FPP... and it's silly when we talking about RP games.
Especially when we talking about "you are V", not "you are you in Cyberpunk world" scenario. You create V, you play his/her role...
That's fair enough as it's all subjectiveThe problem for me with the "it's supposed to be you, not a real character" is that...the character is nothing like me and is in a scenario I would never be in. If I were really playing a game as me, it would be either the most boring or the shortest game ever as I go about my mundane life and make safe, law abiding decisions. V's story is NOT my story, I don't know her history, I haven't formed the relationships she has, I didn't have her childhood, etc...she's a character who is nothing like me but instead of getting to know her and how she feels I have to randomly make up or assume those emotions out of nowhere?
Yeah no, that's not what I said at all. I explained to you that "first person" in a book is completely different than FPP in a game since you apparently didn't know that based on this statement "That would be the same as arguing that a book written in first-person doesn't allow the reader to connect to the character as well as a book written in third-person because...why? It's not "cinematic" enough? Doesn't let the reader visualize the main character's "appearance" in enough detail? " First person in a book is not visual. The same physical details are relayed and the character is even more fleshed out since we can read their thoughts and emotions from their perspective. FPP in a game is completely different. It's a camera angle that physically excludes the protagonist. If you watched a movie without being able to see the protagonist, would you still be able to become attached to them? To sympathize with them? I know I wouldn't.According to this, watching a scene in TPP lets us better see V's inner thoughts and feelings? But hang on -- that would require me to dictate V's reactions to the player. What if V were to look frightened when the player felt their V would just stare back coldly? What if V were to laugh at a joke the player didn't find funny? What if V were to walk around with a certain action and energy that the player didn't think fit their vision?
As for revealing the inner thoughts and feelings of a character, that's almost exclusively the providence of written work. (I'd also argue it should be kept to a minimum. Necessary sometimes, but it's a prime example of telling instead of showing.) Books allow for all the senses to be incorporated into the experience but require more active involvement by the reader. Any visual media is more passive, but strips the experience down to sight and sound. Games arguably add a little tactile sense back into it with rumble packs and stuff...but it's a little much to say that my controller vibrating is a transcendent experience. Regardless of the frills, the core of the narrative experience will be the storytelling, not the perspective. Just like all media. (It's perfectly possible to write an amazing story in 1st or 3rd person. It's perfectly possible to make an amazing film using more close-ups or more wide shots. It's perfectly possible to create amazing cutscenes using FPP or TPP.)
It's not like I wont enjoy the game at all, I'm sure I'll have fun with the combat, learning about the lore, and looking at the cool stuff in the environment. I just wont be able to become attached to V or care about him or her at all. To me a pair of floating hands or a floating gun can never be a character and I can never care about them. They're just the tv screen through which I'm looking at the game world.That's fair enough as it's all subjective
However, my point was it's supposed to be roleplay. A fantasy version of you. Like when you used to playact as a kid, to put it basically. I'm not villainous in real-life (I hope) but I know how to roleplay one. I'll also know how to roleplay any version of V I play, game limitations excepted.
Also, ideally, you're not supposed to assume emotions out of nowhere, you're supposed to feel them by virtue of the action unfolding in front of you, like you do in real life.
As for books, well, readers can be brought to tears or elated from what they read. They didn't need to see the emotion on the characters face. Sure, they had a description, but a picture, or in this case moving images, can paint a thousand words too. Are you saying that if you were used to hanging out with Jackie and loved the character, that you couldn't feel sad unless you saw V's face being sad? That's surprising, if that's the case.
I've played games in first person where I've felt genuine emotions due to my actions or the events I've seen unfolding in front of me. I didn't need to see the expression on someone's face in order to get a prompt on how I should feel, lest I feel nothing at all. Not to mention that you will still sometimes see emotions on other people's faces; I doubt V will only be with one other person anytime something dramatic happens.
Gordon Freeman doesn't even speak, but I know I felt REALLY sad at the end of episode 2 (where's the last part Valve?!). I would have felt sad even if Alyx wasn't there but she was so it's actually an example of what I mentioned above, other faces being present to show emotion, if that helps you. Earlier in Half-life, when I was alone with Alyx and I thought she might have been killed, I was also gutted, I didn't need to see anyone else looking sad at her potentially fatal wounding.
Besides, as I think SigilFey has mentioned several times now, tpp also means there's more opportunity for V's reactions to actually go against the players. I'd also argue that facial animations can make things worse, a la Mass Effect Andromeda, though I wouldn't think that's a danger with CDPR.
Like I said, it's all subjective, which is fine but I'm surprised how some people feel that TPP cutscenes are objectively/factually better for this type of game and what CPDR are seemingly aiming for, and that they won't enjoy the game without them. It's a shame.
I find the way people feel are discussing this quite interesting. It really gives insight into what a game should be for some.If you watched a movie without being able to see the protagonist, would you still be able to become attached to them? To sympathize with them? I know I wouldn't.
....Just the vehicle to carry my gun around
I don't hate you for having different tastes than me but I still can't understand that perspective. Good on you for being able to enjoy it but it's a huge detriment for me. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I've never played modern VR and that playing this game in that might allow me to feel as you guys do and do the whole pretend to be V thing but it's not an option for me at this time. As it stands I just can't feel that the hands floating on the tv screen 6 feet away are somehow my hands (despite being able to see and feel my real hands and the rest of my real body too) that me pressing a button to make those hands jump is me jumping even though my real self isn't moving, that the hands being shot is me being shot even though my real self feels nothing. It's currently not VR but it's not a character I can become attached to or sympathize with either.I find the way people feel are discussing this quite interesting. It really gives insight into what a game should be for some.
Anyway, with regards to your first point, I would say that this is a game, not a movie and, if you ask me if I can feel attached to a character in a game in FPP my answer is: very definitely yes. Why? Because, and I know you'll hate me for saying this, FPP means, specifically in a game like, I'm the one in V's shoes. So yes, I can be attached to myself. It's automatic. I don't need to be encouraged. I don't need to sympathise 'with myself', if you get what I mean. I feel what V feels, or is it the other way around? This is the problem here; the whole, 'it's not me, I want it to be a character I'm viewing like it's a movie', if that sums it up correctly. Not that I'm criticising you.
As for the second part, I think that despite what you've said, you've already started to roleplay a bit, seeing as though you say, 'to carry MY gun around'. See, it's YOUR gun already, not V's
Yeah, I see where you're coming from. It does requires a gamer to meet things half-way, so to speak.I've never played modern VR and that playing this game in that might allow me to feel as you guys do and do the whole pretend to be V thing..
Maybe so, but have you seen any movies lately where the entire film uses a single, unchanging perspective? Most use multiple perspectives throughout the course of the movie. Hell, multiple perspectives for the same scene isn't exactly rare. There is a reason for doing so.Just like all media. (It's perfectly possible to write an amazing story in 1st or 3rd person. It's perfectly possible to make an amazing film using more close-ups or more wide shots. It's perfectly possible to create amazing cutscenes using FPP or TPP.)
Well, example of what have been defined:You mean a 22 year old edgerunner? Cause that's the extent of what's been defined.
Err.. No. It means it's not defined by stats but by other mechanics or systems, potentially.When a stat isn't there, it doesn't mean the character doesn't have it, just that it is already defined.
Pretty broad strokes. The details will be left to the player to decide and define.-Some of V tastes, example: V use cyberware. V drink alcool.
-Some of V relation: Jackie, Victor.
-V's appartement. Not that I care, but some do and it's still defined.
-Some of V's goals (And no, not every edgerunner share the same goals).
Won't be able to agree on this. The fact that a numbered stat is not explicitely stated doesn't mean it's not there and have effect, just that there is no controllable gameplay mechanics associated, but still it affect the game and how the world react to your character.Err.. No. It means it's not defined by stats but by other mechanics or systems, potentially.
Well, every people have it's important things, to which it's more than just simple annoyance, and those I named all have their own topic on this forum if I remember well.Pretty broad strokes. The details will be left to the player to decide and define.
Yes, I know. I'm making a logical exclusion for rhetorical purposes. The point is the same.Yeah no, that's not what I said at all.
There are several scenes in film that let the audience view things from a character's perspective. I can use The Silence of the Lambs as a prime example: the camera letting the audience view Buffalo Bill from the low angle of his victim, Catherine, in the pit. (Before we leap right to, "Yes, but we get to see her on-screen as well," let me clarify -- I am not saying that viewing a character in TPP is not effective. I am saying that FPP can be equally or more effective in achieving the desired effect for a given scene. Including those shots was huge in creating the sense of vulnerability and sympathy for the victim. That was achieved by specifically using a FPP perspective instead of including the back of the actress's head in the frame.)First person in a book is not visual. The same physical details are relayed and the character is even more fleshed out since we can read their thoughts and emotions from their perspective. FPP in a game is completely different. It's a camera angle that physically excludes the protagonist. If you watched a movie without being able to see the protagonist, would you still be able to become attached to them? To sympathize with them? I know I wouldn't.
I read everything. Please, be polite.As for the character expressing an emotion you didn't expect or want them to, if you had actually read my post which you replied to you'd see your question was already answered "the ideal scenario is to be able to pick a dialogue option or action or response that ties into the character's reactions and emotions for that scene"
Having the MC automatically have thoughts that we can hear out loud is definitely not my first choice but it would be a consolation prize that would help me connect to V better in FPP since otherwise V is not a character, he or she is just a pair of floating hands and a disembodied voice. Just the vehicle to carry my gun around, not a person I can empathize with or care about. I have never cared about a FPP protagonist, they're not a person they're just the tv screen.
It is good to be able to toggle between the two in combat. You get way better situation awareness in TPP as you can see how you relate to the cover you are near or behind better & have an approximation of 'peripheral vision'. FPP is better for aiming & a few other technical things.FPP is great for combat but IMO terrible for storytelling and I like my games with both.
Don't generalize. I don't have any opinion on witcher since I haven't played any of them. Or, I tried playing them but didn't maintain interest for long.idk we really like the witcher, which is why y'all are here now.
It would still be worse for me as far as storytelling and feeling like there is no protagonist but at least that jarring disconnect of random floating hands might be gone if the fake hands are actually aligning with your real hands in VR and all you can see is the game and nothing in your real living room. The gameplay and exploration might be more fun as well (or it might cause me extreme motion sickness, who knows?)Yeah, I see where you're coming from. It does requires a gamer to meet things half-way, so to speak.
As for VR, I'd be really curious to know how someone with your tastes would find it and I also think Nightcity would be a great place for a proper, AAA VR game.
Alien Isolation was modded for VR and worked pretty well considering. If, somehow, CP2077 got the same treatment, we can experience the joy of having a discussion about the merits of THREE different types of perspective :s
Exactly the same for me. I tried with TW3 but just couldn't. I'm only here for CPDon't generalize. I don't have any opinion on witcher since I haven't played any of them. Or, I tried playing them but didn't maintain interest for long.
I am here because of Cyberpunk 2077, nothing else.