FPP/TPP Perspective Thread OPEN. Be NICE.

[Mybrokenenglish]

VO in games is actually one of the least expensive processes especially when talking about anything other than indie budget.

Sorry, man, but VO is freaking expensive, in particular if you want to translate it in other languages. That's why even AAA games usually only have the english VO and are not dubbed in other languages and you'll be suprised (if you're english native speaker) how many people in the world need subtitles at least. TW3 was not dubbed in my native language and people got mad with CDPR (CP2077 will be dubbed and people are celebrating). I've lived abroad for several years so my english is quite good (FAR from being perfect) but when it comes to dialects or weird accents I struggle as well. Undesrtanding peasants in velen with all those "me" instead of "my" took a while, or danish accent for NPCs from skellige... You need to read subtitles and it's annoying.

Software houses know the struggle and know that not dubbing make them lose money, but they evaluate the loss minor to the one they'll have dubbing everything in every language.

 

[NescioNomen]

Sorry, man, but VO is freaking expensive, in particular if you want to translate it in other languages.

Well if you're doing voiceovers of hundred of thousands of words in 10 different languages then yea it can get quite expensive. But even a high five figure sum or even a low six figure sum (at high VO standards since if you're not really adamant on quality the sums can get much lower) spent on VO's is small change compared to other resource intensive areas of a AAA project. The dialogue would be translated anyway, in the case of localization, with or without VO so grabing some local actors to do the voiceover shouldn't really be that much of a hustle.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

But a single cutscene early in the game showcasing V's apartment an a fairly typical morning routine (minus the morning pee) ... yeah it's 2077 ... cyberware is everywhere ... but people still have to brush their teeth ... makes V seem more like a normal person not some fledgling superhero to me.

See, I don’t think it’s the games job to underline that ”normality”. It’s the default assumption that s/he is... just somebody like everyone else (to what ever extent the player chooses). Showing that stuff brings little to no value to the scene.

However, if all that stuff - teeth, washing face, what ever - is left to the player with a little carrot (e.g. brushing teeth, washing face having a small ”rejuvenating” effect for a certain time period), it already enhances the experience with more responsive interactivity. If the player bothers, that is... and s/he doesn’t have to.

There might even be a little ”for fun” quirk to it... Like how Geralts beard grew over time, if you leave unbrushed enough, V’s smile turns yellow and eventually brown over time (which might even get commented by NPC’s... and lead to rejection in certain social situations).

Those kinds of things pay up much better than a cutscene.

And just for the record... This isn’t just about brushing teeth. But interaction-implicative cutscene sections altogether, which I’m sure there’ll be plenty more beyond the ones in the demo.

In the elevator sequence, the player should be able to choose what to say regardless of perspective (though I think it should remain FPP for consistency).

In the morning sequence, the player should be able to explore the interactivity (or not, if so chosen) of the apartment on his own. Watching the character from the mirror in the bathroom, etc.

And so on for other cutscenes.

 

[NewasH]

Now have hope for switch to a 3rd person perspective in the game ?

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

The dialogue would be translated anyway, in the case of localization, with or without VO so grabing some local actors to do the voiceover shouldn't really be that much of a hustle.

it's not that simple, you can't just translate and use it, you need to re-adapt the words so that the sentences are lip-synced. A sentence in english can last 3 seconds, the same sentence lasts 7 seconds in another language and vice versa. Then you need good actors, not random folks or it sound ridiculous, and usually actors need to register without having the scene in front of them, so they need to really understan the situation just from the script. A poor dubbing is much worse than no dubbing at all, it makes the VO ridiculous. We have several exemples of terribile lyp-sync and VO in videogames, and my country has one of the best VO actors in the world since we dub every single foreigner movie/tv-show. Also you need "the right voice", for exemple kratos in GOW 2018, the american guy has a very deep voice, we don't have any actor in the whole country with such tone (we don't have many black guys here except for very poor immigrants), so the voice doesn't sound THAT good, and "boy" is something we wouldn't use, so it sounds weird even when translated. I usually go for the english language, but I must confess that in a game like TW3, with hundreds of lines and dialects, after few hours it gets phisically challenging. I fear CP2077 rude slang will be lost in traslation, so I'll definetely go for the american VO (american is the easiest to understand, except for "black people slang", that's impossible to get)

EDIT: I realise we're OT, sorry mods!

Spoiler

 

[SkyWitcher]

Just dropping this here:

Hope CDProjekt learn from the mistakes of Warhorse and add a TPP from the start.
Anyway we already known from the simple love and hype the game have been generating modders will make an excepcional job for make TPP work in Cyberpunk but you could add more sales profit and hype by adding it yourself guys, be smart.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

See, I don’t think it’s the games job to underline that ”normality”. It’s the default assumption that s/he is... just somebody like everyone else (to what ever extent the player chooses). Showing that stuff brings little to no value to the scene.

However, if all that stuff - teeth, washing face, what ever - is left to the player with a little carrot (e.g. brushing teeth, washing face having a small ”rejuvenating” effect for a certain time period), it already enhances the experience with more responsive interactivity. If the player bothers, that is... and s/he doesn’t have to.

There might even be a little ”for fun” quirk to it... Like how Geralts beard grew over time, if you leave unbrushed enough, V’s smile turns yellow and eventually brown over time (which might even get commented by NPC’s... and lead to rejection in certain social situations).

Those kinds of things pay up much better than a cutscene.

And just for the record... This isn’t just about brushing teeth. But interaction-implicative cutscene sections altogether, which I’m sure there’ll be plenty more beyond the ones in the demo.

In the elevator sequence, the player should be able to choose what to say regardless of perspective (though I think it should remain FPP for consistency).

In the morning sequence, the player should be able to explore the interactivity (or not, if so chosen) of the apartment on his own. Watching the character from the mirror in the bathroom, etc.

And so on for other cutscenes.

I totally agree, it's something I loved in RDR2, it made the game very immersive (and it's not even RPG or FPP).

I also agree on the dialogues, we should decide what to say instead of having pre-determined cut-scenes. They're fine if it's some extemely coreographic action sequence (still, I don't see the need of losing interactivity), but not when it comes to dialogues.

 

[NescioNomen]

it's not that simple, you can't just translate and use it, you need to re-adapt the words so that the sentences are lip-synced. A sentence in english can last 3 seconds, the same sentence lasts 7 seconds in another language and vice versa. Then you need good actors, not random folks or it sound ridiculous, and usually actors need to register without having the scene in front of them, so they need to really understan the situation just from the script. A poor dubbing is much worse than no dubbing at all, it makes the VO ridiculous. We have several exemples of terribile lyp-sync and VO in videogames, and my country has one of the best VO actors in the world since we dub every single foreigner movie/tv-show. Also you need "the right voice", for exemple kratos in GOW 2018, the american guy has a very deep voice, we don't have any actor in the whole country with such tone (we don't have many black guys here except for very poor immigrants), so the voice doesn't sound THAT good, and "boy" is something we wouldn't use, so it sounds weird even when translated. I usually go for the english language, but I must confess that in a game like TW3, with hundreds of lines and dialects, after few hours it gets phisically challenging. I fear CP2077 rude slang will be lost in traslation, so I'll definetely go for the american VO (american is the easiest to understand, except for "black people slang", that's impossible to get)

I never thought it was simple but even taking all that in to account, the issue with VO and localization isn't a money one it's a priority one. Its usually at the bottom of the any dev list.

Just dropping this here:

Hope CDProjekt learn from the mistakes of Warhorse and add a TPP from the start.
Anyway we already known from the simple love and hype the game have been generating modders will make an excepcional job for make TPP work in Cyberpunk but you could add more sales profit and hype by adding it yourself guys, be smart.

Ugh.. so bad..

 

[Nikola_Nesic]

Ugh.. so bad..

Honestly, not so bad.
Modders can add TPP, they can do character animation from zero, i for sure will wait for TPP mod, but i know they going to need more time and more work, developers would have much easy time to make TPP and with much higher quality.
Also, since MP is almost 100% in game not from start, but later on that also solve problem of character animation for TPP.

 

[NescioNomen]

Honestly, not so bad.
Modders can add TPP, they can do character animation from zero, i for sure will wait for TPP mod, but i know they going to need more time and more work, developers would have much easy time to make TPP and with much higher quality.
Also, since MP is almost 100% in game not from start, but later on that also solve problem of character animation for TPP.

The animations in that clip are alright, but the combat is completely wrong and unintuitive in 3pp in this case because it wasn't developed for 3pp, it's evident for anyone who played it. But hey.. Whatever works for you..

 

[Suhiira]

Showing that stuff brings little to no value to the scene.

I don't mind it being shown once, sort of a tour of V's apartment. Where the bed, comm link, armory, and clothing are at. A quick look out the window to get an idea of the scope of the city and maybe spot a landmark or two to help you find your way around. The little human touch (tooth brushing) is mostly flavor.

I don't want a set of chores, daily shower, personal hygiene, whatever you feel obligated to do every day. Once fine, after the 3rd time it becomes a chore.

 

[Miodrag82]

I dont understand all this complaining about FPP, game is designed around that perspectiv, combat, gameplay, interiors everything is designed for that. If its that easy to make it work good in both perspectives they would do it. And i think it is selfish because you are creating negativ atmosphere around the game , some folks are even calling for boycot or piracy. There are lot more AAA TPP single player games than FPP so let us have this game as developers intended it to be

 

[Rawls]

See, I don’t think it’s the games job to underline that ”normality”. It’s the default assumption that s/he is... just somebody like everyone else (to what ever extent the player chooses). Showing that stuff brings little to no value to the scene.

Narratively it makes the character more relateable. It's those little touches and moment that add a lot to character IMO. Not everything the player character does has to be mechanic-centered or player controlled. That lets them breath a little, it adds a lot to the player's investment in the character IMO. As Su said, I sincerely doubt we'll see that every day. Keep in mind the quests shown take place "near the beginning of the game" according to the demo narrator. In that scene I got the sense of confident (almost cocky) but also somewhat disaffected, a little bit lonely maybe ... unfulfilled? The camera drawing back across the room to show all the cool things we have in the future, but the complete alone-ness. I think the TPP scene gives you more of that sense than it could be done in FPP.

EDIT: Also let's avoid complaints about other users posts and current cultural issues, which are off topic. Post deleted.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I don't want a set of chores, daily shower, personal hygiene, whatever you feel obligated to do every day. Once fine, after the 3rd time it becomes a chore.

Neither do I. But it is those little interactions (voluntary) that, if peppered all over the game (where they fit), that make it interesting beyond being ”just” an open world game. And better yet, if there are some RPG mechanics involved so that it is not simply ”being able to do”.

Narratively it makes the character more relateable. It's those little touches and moment that add a lot to character IMO.

While that is certainly true to an extent, I don’t think it overpasses the sensation of being able to do it yourself (if you want to) - with that little carrot there to make those actions worth anything, that is.

Not everything the player character does has to be mechanic-centered or player controlled. That them breath a little, it adds a lot to the player's investment in the character IMO.

I don’t think cutscenes that are out of the players control add to the investment, compared to doing it yourself by choice. It is a different sensation, but... nevertheless.

I think where ever it is possible, the player should absolutely be the one calling the shots on whether or not to do or say anything.

It enhances the sense of ownership of the PC, and the narrative side comes along through.... ”you” adding those little touches to ”your” story.

As Su said, I sincerely doubt we'll see that every day. Keep in mind the quests shown take place "near the beginning of the game" according to the demo narrator. In that scene I got the sense of confident (almost cocky) but also somewhat disaffected, a little bit lonely maybe ... unfulfilled? The camera drawing back across the room to show all the cool things we have in the future, but the complete alone-ness. I think the TPP scene gives you more of that sense than it could be done in FPP.

I’m quite certain we will see those kinds of little snippets throughout the game quite enough.

I don’t mind the sort of camera-drive that does an initial showcase of a place, but once V gets up, before anything’s done, I do think the control should be regained.

The sort of ”personal drama” that is (if the viewer interprets it like that - and that is important) projected through those scenes, can well come by other means.

And I would very much prefer, if I could present loneliness, thoughtfulness, disaffection, what ever, through dialog, or some other means of personification that I myself choose (that are possible with voiced protagonist and the scope of the game) for ”my” character.

 

[Nikola_Nesic]

And i think it is selfish because you are creating negativ atmosphere around the game , some folks are even calling for boycot or piracy.

It is not selfish, nobody say throw away FPP and do just TPP, many are for that CDPR add TPP at later date after game come out, also like we say so many time not all are happy with FPP for a few reasons, some have motion sickness, for other is more fun and immersive to play in TPP and so on.

I didn't call anyone to boycot CP2077, i see few people talk about it on some other site, and even on CP2077 reddit but i didn't do that, and this post is to talk about TPP/FPP.

The animations in that clip are alright, but the combat is completely wrong and unintuitive in 3pp in this case because it wasn't developed for 3pp, it's evident for anyone who played it. But hey.. Whatever works for you..

Well i for one don't like Melee combat in FPP, plus melee combat in KCD is too slow and boring, they wanted realistic combat, but also there is FPP mod for Dark Souls, both have their flaws but still good that they are made, so people who like those games can play them and have fun.

Also shooting in TPP would be easy to mod than melee plus real cover system.
But when you see some of NSFW animation and short movies they made i am sure modders can do great work.

 

[Miodrag82]

It is not selfish, nobody say throw away FPP and do just TPP, many are for that CDPR add TPP at later date after game come out, also like we say so many time not all are happy with FPP for a few reasons, some have motion sickness, for other is more fun and immersive to play in TPP and so on.

I didn't call anyone to boycot CP2077, i see few people talk about it on some other site, and even on CP2077 reddit but i didn't do that, and this post is to talk about TPP/FPP.

That wasn't aimed at you personaly, it was you as plural (should have wrote they instead)
back on topic, there are 3rd person mods for 1st person games where you have full body not just floating hands and they all look terrible, so if project red want to include tpp they would need to make whole new animations for player character. They could do half assed solution but that's acceptable only for 3rd party mods. Not to mention that in TPP player can peek behind corners and take cover and still being able to see attacker, and game is maybe not designed for that

 

[Nikola_Nesic]

I know it was not aim at me, and CDPR say that if you look down, you will see full body, so we know V will not be floating head and hands, and will have animation for some actions.

Not to mention that in TPP player can peek behind corners and take cover and still being able to see attacker, and game is maybe not designed for that

That can be disadvantage in MP, but it depends what type of MP it is, again cover in TPP look much much better than in any FPP.

 

[Mebrilia]

I know it was not aim at me, and CDPR say that if you look down, you will see full body, so we know V will not be floating head and hands, and will have animation for some actions.



That can be disadvantage in MP, but it depends what type of MP it is, again cover in TPP look much much better than in any FPP.

Except the visual that we seen at the demo did show the cam was in the chest and not in the head you could barely see your lower tummy and when v was carring the woman seemed like she was pressing it on her chin. It is clear from the prospective that is completely messed up that yes you can see your body but you are still an headless character with the eyes on the lower part of your breast. While back i provided examples of a real first person made with the cam inside the character head and cyberpunk 2077.

True you are not a floating head with the hand popping out from your cheecks you will be a walking torso with the eyes on the center of your torso and for me is exactly the same

 

[Sild]

Hope CDProjekt learn from the mistakes of Warhorse and add a TPP from the start.

No mistake made. Warhorse made a very good first game, buggy as hell, but good nonetheless, yes FPP being crucial to its design, especially combat. People would make mods do anything in games. Skyrim has a gazilion NSFW mods, does that mean Bethesda should have made a triple X game?

more sales profit and hype by adding it yourself guys, be smart.

They'd be incredibly cheap too. And i'm not sure how much, if any, difference will adding one, two or ten more perspectives would make in terms of sales.

 

[SigilFey]

I never thought it was simple but even taking all that in to account, the issue with VO and localization isn't a money one it's a priority one. Its usually at the bottom of the any dev list.

It's a BIG money thing. You don't just need the voice talent (which is usually quite a low-paying job), you also need to continuously pay the sound operator, the editors, not to mention rent the studio space. If you own your own recording studio and equipment, there's still property expenses, the electricity cost to run the equipment (for hundreds and thousands of man hours), equipment wear-and-tear / replacement. Then, there are inevitable bad takes that need to be re-recorded. Then, post starts and someone needs to be paid to add all of those files where they belong in the game and ensure everything is working properly...sheesh, even keeping vending machines stocked and bottles of water around starts to add up.

Doing a complete VO for a game the size of TW3 or Cyberpunk is a monumental expense.

...i'm not sure how much, if any, difference will adding one, two or ten more perspectives would make in terms of sales.

This is the heart of the issue. I can come up with a near-endless list of TPP games that bombed terribly. I can come up with a list of awful FPP games that's just as long. I can create a list of games that offer both TPP and FPP that just don't work.

And I can come up with huge lists for each category that did extremely well.

A game's choice of perspective does not determine how successful it is. The gameplay does. Invariably, some people will prefer things to be different. On with life we go!