FPP/TPP Perspective Thread OPEN. Be NICE.

[Snowflakez]

Yea, at first i was dissappointed when i found out that they gonna go with fpp but i know all these talks wont change their mind.

I agree with you, i have so many to say and i exhaled at the realization that its all futile. I'll just wait for youtuber vids for this game.

I think the only thing out of all that you said that could be considered "futile" is the desire for TPP. Everything else, contextual animations included, are definitely possibilities. I think that's one of the biggest complaints people had with the FPP perspective around the time the demo came out, and that was a year ago. So, I think there's at least a 40-50% chance that they implemented it.

 

[Marquis_deShade]

Here I am thinking about perspectives, and this thread pops up at the top of the Hot Topics list for recent activity.

THIS POST is what got me on perspective, and though I've mentioned similar before my ears won't stop ringing with how much importance character perspective can play.

Here's the quote version for thems what don't want to clicky.

Something in the PnP game of Cyberpunk that was a thing was no levels.
While, I don't expect this to have been implemented instead of what we saw in the last demo, I'd still love to see it.

There's a lot that could be done from a role play perspective if it were.
For instance, instead of a cartoon system of numeric level floating over a character's head when you scan them, that could be replaced with your character's personal subjective threat assessment of that character.
Street cred, reputation, cool, or whatever it finally gets called can play into the background math of how your character perceives another based on your own character's reputation, accomplishments, skills, etc.
Depending on how you build your version of V, absolutely everyone could look and appear super deadly threatening, or, if your V is a big dumb tank, your V could be like the drunk frat boy at the pub that thinks he can fight the whole world.
That sliding scale of subjective perception based on how your character is built, and how your character sees and experiences the world of Night City would, IMO, be absolutely phenomenal as opposed to; "oh, they're level 9000 and I'm level fetch quest, so ... smh.

Getting into your character's head space from your character's perspective, based on your character build would certainly add to an element of immersion, and, you could learn a lot of lessons the hard way if your character SEES or perceives an enemy as a pushover, but, in actuality only LOOKS that way due your character's over confidence, and, once that lesson is learned, your character's perception can reflect that lesson learned.
The same goes for the opposite perspective; if something looks super deadly threatening, you might steer your character toward a more stealthy approach, or spend time asking around town, researching, and learning about how hard the target actually is, and depending on how easy/hard things turn out, threat assessments adapt.

I like the idea of a world where your character doesn't know who dafuq "those" people over there are ... until your character actually investigates who they are, or, has experience enough in the world to know, and/or asks someone.
You're given a job to go wipe out bad-guy-gang B.A.D, and you show up where they all conveniently had "B.A.D" floating over their heads, BUT, what if you were lied to? What if B.A.D. is an undercover police surveillance operation? Does your character still see everyone with a floating "B.A.D." or, do they automatically know ... for reasons, that they're actually police?
It begs question, and it's a mechanic that could play into a lot of fun with perception, and deception.

That could also play into your character's broader and more specific knowledge of the world. As you explore and experience more of Night City, your character could pick up on and recognize things like gang colors, affiliations, rivalries, etc., and perhaps pick up on that recognition via an NPC name change from "pedestrian bystander" to "suspiciously resembles Scav affiliation".

Your character doesn't recognize that enemy XZY is carrying a Kruzer Automatic 8.97 pew pew Limited with a damage of BOOM and a handling of AHHHHH unless your character has invested points into being a gun nut that can recognize any one of 31 dozen teen hundred types of guns on sight, has experience with that gun, or, takes it to a dealer that can tell you WTF it is.

I'd love to see that.
I don't however, expect to see that.
I expect we'll still see cartoon level numbers, and immediate recognition of people under a label despite having never seen them ever even once, and, I'll accept that, and deal with it, and still enjoy the game when it comes out, but, it'd sure be nice if numbered levels were tossed to the curve, and a more character subjective perspective experience were explored.
After all, wasn't something like that part of the point of setting the game in a hard First Person Perspective?

eh.
2 cents.

Anyway, the short of it is, if First Person Perspective is going to be flown as so important that it's an absolute, then, WHY STOP THERE?

Get rid of the cartoon magic numbers that float over NPC character's heads to tell us what level they are.
Get rid of objective levels altogether, and really put the player into the character's perspective view of having to make their own judgement based on how the character perceives things about how to solve a problem instead of getting your hand held with an objective number and label like "Enemy Thug Lvl 2".
If you build a character that's physically weak, your character's subjective view of bad guys might make them look a LOT tougher, than, perhaps, for a character that's built like a battleship.

How do we know that lady walking across the street is a prostitute when we've never seen her before until, like, right this second? Where's the respect for women? What's with automatically floating a label over some poor girl's head because she happens to go in for that kind of fashion? Maybe we should find a polite way to ask the girl, or just watch to see if she really is a prostitute before floating that label over her head? Maybe "Red Hair Lady" or just some question marks would be a better label to float over her head until we know more about her?
Make those little labels dynamic, and representative of how V, your character, sees the world, based on your character's experience in the world, before giving some nice lady walking down the street a disrespectful label floating over her head until we have a better book of information about who's who and what's what in the world.

First person perspective is fine and great ... to start, but, let's really get into V's head space, and see the world as V might see the world based on how you, the player, create V as a character.

 

[Cybunknymph]

The labels are just labels. If you are refering to "DIRTGIRL" I think it is just slang for a girl that does not have much cyberware, or is poor/homeless. If they are actual prostitutes they should get proper slang labels, joyboy/joygirl. It's just like a quick label based on observations. We all do the same thing when making judgments about people, especially first impression-type judgments. The info about people can maybe be looked at as personal hallucinations based on features of whatever cyberware we have, namely Kiroshi eyes. Hopefully all floating info can be turned off/on by choice. I get what your saying and I consistently wonder about the same things.

 

[Marquis_deShade]

The labels are just labels. If you are refering to "DIRTGIRL" I think it is just slang for a girl that does not have much cyberware, or is poor/homeless. If they are actual prostitutes they should get proper slang labels, joyboy/joygirl. It's just like a quick label based on observations. We all do the same thing when making judgments about people, especially first impression-type judgments. The info about people can maybe be looked at as personal hallucinations based on features of whatever cyberware we have, namely Kiroshi eyes. Hopefully all floating info can be turned off/on by choice. I get what your saying and I consistently wonder about the same things.

I was just using the girl label, tag thing as an example.
In the quoted bit, I go on about possible differences between what you've been told by other NPCs vs. what your character's senses actually see, vs. what the game hand-holds you into seeing through a label.

You take a contract to wipe out some bad guys, so, when you get to the bad guys, they're labeled "bad guy", or whatever, but, what if the person that hired you LIED? What if those "bad guys" are actually undercover police?
Does the "Bad Guy" label still float over their head despite what your senses tell you? Does it change? or does "Bad Guy" never show up at all and you only ever see "undercover police" label floating over the supposed "bad guy" heads?

How do those cute little magic labels work when you've been lied to, mislead, deceived? Is that even accounted for in the game and how?

There's objective perception, and there's subjective perception. First Person Perspective is a pseudo-subjective view where you're placed into a cockpit view of what your character sees, but, to move that pseudo-subjective cockpit view into the more personal subjective, the underlying math and gimmicks of the game have to show you the player what the character is seeing, and how they're seeing it.

"Level 2 Thug" could look really scary and threatening to a level 10 character that's all Netrunner with very little hands-on fighting skills, and the character perspective view should reflect that by ditching the level number, and even doing away with the "thug" label, because it could just be some scary looking guy minding his own business ... up until he pulls a knife, or gun, or threatens your character. If scary looking guy isn't labeled "thug" he might get the jump on you. That could be surprising. If, as mentioned, your character is pure Netrunner their threat level could subjectively appear dangerous danger deadly Red even if your character is objectively 8 levels higher than the thug, and game-wise you could knock them down by spitting on them.
It's character perspective.

How does your character SEE the world and themselves vs. the real numbers (which should be hidden, or just no "levels" at all).

What level am I in real life? vs. any of my neighbors if it came down to it? Levels are cartoonish. If First Person Perspective for ... immersion, then, let's go with some more immersive details ... at least as options what can get got turned on/off in the main game options and difficulty setting menu.

 

[Cybunknymph]

I have a better idea of what you meant and totally agree. It would be amazing if the "indicators" of people were in behavior, mannerisms, and body language...dare I say, facial expression. Hopefully exactly what your talking about is addressed at E3, because I want to know also. I would like to be able to make my own assumptions about whoever I may come across in 2077. Maybe the "new" look/update will explain things a bit.

Imagine getting a gut feeling IRL about people/characters in Night City, like without all the floaty bits. The same as you would if you visited a real city that was unfamiliar. That would be a trip.

 

[Marquis_deShade]

I have a better idea of what you meant and totally agree. It would be amazing if the "indicators" of people were in behavior, mannerisms, and body language...dare I say, facial expression. Hopefully exactly what your talking about is addressed at E3, because I want to know also. I would like to be able to make my own assumptions about whoever I may come across in 2077. Maybe the "new" look/update will explain things a bit.

Imagine getting a gut feeling IRL about people/characters in Night City, like without all the floaty bits. The same as you would if you visited a real city that was unfamiliar. That would be a trip.

How does that "gut feeling" get translated into game play though?
How is it done fairly universally?
There'd have to be some visual cues, or audible cues, perhaps vibrating controller cues for those that have those but an audio/visual substitute for those that don't.

... and facial expressions? That's great, but, there's a lot of us with Asperger's, and other degrees on the spectrum what don't really "get" or jive with facial expressions that well, so, again, we have the whole universal translation question.
How do such things get translated into a playable game?

The easy answer is; give people easy to read levels and name tags. That, however, is a little too simplistic, so, there should be some other middle ground that's still nuanced, but translates a character's stats, skills, etc into a plausible audio/visual experience.
Not every NPC is hostile or friendly either. There should be middle ground for unknown, neutral, and somewhere in between. Absolutes are a little bit dull.
There should be hostile people that are convincingly friendly looking, that might even leave you second and third guessing about if you really did the right thing to kill them if you have to kill them, and there should be people so hairy and scary their teeth have tattoos that are otherwise harmless, or even friendly.

How does something like that get translated into a visually acceptable game that doesn't require a degree in Psychology for any average player to jive with the mechanics of how their character sees the world vs. how the world actually is?

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

Yeah, I'd love a deeper immersive-sim approach as well, but not gonna happen. I really hope we'll be able to toggle off those labels for immersion, the problem is that with a traditional level system (let's say TW3 since it's from the same studio), you can't play without levels shown on NPCs' heads, since missions are gated by levels and enemies, both high and low levels, look and behave exactly the same, so it's impossible to guess how strong an NPC is, and since a strong NPC will be bullet sponge and one-shot-kill our character because of the huge boost in DMG output and HP that comes from its levels.

I suggested something like immersive sim or action games, where every enemy archetype has specific stats and characteristics, so that when you see one you know how easy it is to face him.
Scavanger? Not much cyberware and street weapons = weak
Maelstromer? Lot of cyberware and advanced weapons = middle
Max-Tac? Special force created with the purpose of tracking down the most dangerous borgs once they go cyberpsychotic, so they clearly are fully armored and use top of the line military weapons = oh boy, run for your life!
The more you progress within the game, the more you improve your stats and gain new abilities and weapons, so by the end of it a max tac agent can be faced with fewer risks.

But it's not gonna happen, "traditional level system", a lvl 2 max tac agent is nothing compared to a lvl 17 scavenger.

Spoiler

The other day I was thinking about how they'll deal with a traditional level system together with character creation: I mean, if you create a netrunner with low constitution and strenght, he'll be weaker in combat compared to a classic solo, so you'll need to look for alternative approaches. At the same time, you need a standard DMG from weapons, otherwise the game we'll be too difficult to be played by a netrunner. But how do you have it without having a fixed character like geralt who can only use swords or signs? Or you make all weapons the same (a shotgun deals always X DPS, an handgun deals Y DPS), which is realistic but makes all the enemies the same regardless their level, or you go for a level gated gear like in TW3 (or looter shooters) and at this point the traditional level system works as intended. Every weapon is gated by level so it's suited for killing enemies at the same level and the game is balanced, progression works and devs can stop you for doing things they don't want to. At the same time your approach changes with the class you created, so a solo will powerslide, while a techie will create bombs and a netrunner hack terminals, but when it comes to shooting, with the proper level you can kill what devs wanted you to kill. So far it looks like the most likely scenario, since they already used it in TW3.

Does it work? Yes. Do we really need a level system? No, immersive sim exist (deus ex is the closer to my idea for CP). Do we get a traditional level system? It's confirmed, so yes. Is it immersive? Absolutely no. Should they deliver an immersive game after all those claims? That would be appropriate, But do they REALLY want to deliver an immersive game? Probably not, just a FPP RPG and the immersion thing was mainly a marketing claim to justify their decision, which is fair, to be honest. Is it a huge problem? No, lots of people actually like it. Is it a shame they didn't try to make something innovative? Yes. Will we all play the game no matter what? Of course, we wouldn't be wasting our time here otherwise.
I was totally excited when they said they wanted to pursue immersion, and totally into FPP with the interactive scene system and, MAYBE, contextual animations (not in the demo, but hey...), once I realised that a TRADITIONAL level system was in the game and not really a possible "subject to change" thing, I lost a good part of my excitement. We have all played millions of game walking around, looting everything, keep it in our magical mary poppins' bag until we can sell it so we can buy a lvl22 handgun, levelling up so we can go in that neighborhood and do some missions. One more won't hurt. It won't be a game changer, but hey, very few games are. We all loved TW3 even with its flaws (back in 2015 those were not as important as they would've been if the game came out this year) thanks to its great narrative and world building, we'll love CP2077 AT LEAST for the same aspects, since we know CDPR will deliver those for sure.
I hope they added contextual animations at least, if little numbers will take my immersion away, I hope that graphics and visuals will bring it back.

 

[AsadaShino0821]

Please play Kingdom Come: Deliverance and you will know why you want to use FPS.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Please play Kingdom Come: Deliverance and you will know why you want to use FPS.

Crappy melee combats?
Being unable to see where you are walking when you don't go straight?

 

[Sild]

Kingdom Come: Deliverance... ... FPS.

*sigh* if you really want to use acronyms, at least use the right ones.

deep melee combats?

There, fixed it for you.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

There, fixed it for you.

You should tell that to most BTA dev'.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

*sigh* if you really want to use acronyms, at least use the right ones.

You could call it a First Person Stabber or Slasher.

 

[Sild]

You could call it a First Person Stabber or Slasher.

Don't forget Walker, Jumper, Talker, Rider! Why limit it to just part of the action?

Not enough room for roleplay in an FPS (as a genre), and there's plenty and then some in KC: D (yes, slashing and stabbing included).

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Don't forget Walker, Jumper, Talker, Rider! Why limit it to just part of the action?

None of those coincide with the S nor is quite as big a part of the game.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

You actually walk and talk much more than using the sword, but since archery is a thing, FPShooter is fine, isn't it?

 

[BeastModeIron]

I think many peoples perception is quite narrow minded in terms of thinking the game simply having an "option" to switch perspectives because its just not that easy. In comparison to Bethesda games like Fallout & Skyrim, FPP is as basic as it gets, and TPP is even worse. If CDPR wanted to implement quality perspectives for both they would have to build entirely new mechanics for each and everything to go with them.

Take for example games like The Last of Us for TPP and Dishonored for FPP in terms of smooth and fluid gameplay. And that's purely character/player actions, not to take into account all the other mechanics that have to be changed to accommodate each view point, like seamless real time dialog, level design and world design as a whole would be vastly different experiences and I think CDPR would be spreading resources to thin trying to cover all bases rather then mastering one.

So First person is best, and they will make sure character customization is fully realized, I have no doubts. And this is CDPR, no one should assume anything about Cyberpunk is going to be conventional to games of the past.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Take for example games like The Last of Us for TPP and Dishonored for FPP in terms of smooth and fluid gameplay. And that's purely character/player actions, not to take into account all the other mechanics that have to be changed to accommodate each view point, like seamless real time dialog, level design and world design as a whole would be vastly different experiences and I think CDPR would be spreading resources to thin trying to cover all bases rather then mastering one.

I read thoses lines a lot, but never read an actual specific example of something that have to be redone when switching perspective.

 

[BeastModeIron]

I read thoses lines a lot, but never read an actual specific example of something that have to be redone when switching perspective.

Well what game do you know of that does both perspectives fully without compromising features?

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Well what game do you know of that does both perspectives fully without compromising features?

Actually I didn't saw such problem since a long, long time ago, when there was aim problems in games using both perspectives, and I suppose in lazy FPP games there is probably animation problems if translated to TPP (but C2077 doesn't look like a lazy game), but aside of that I see nothing.

That's why I'm asking about precise exemples of what could be such things that have to be redone to switch perspective.

 

[Snowflakez]

Actually I didn't saw such problem since a long, long time ago, when there was aim problems in games using both perspectives, and I suppose in lazy FPP games there is probably animation problems if translated to TPP (but C2077 doesn't look like a lazy game), but aside of that I see nothing.

That's why I'm asking about precise exemples of what could be such things that have to be redone to switch perspective.

Well, animations for both would need to be top-tier. You could argue that 2077's FPP animations so far are... lacklustre, of course, and I'd probably agree (they are smooth enough, but there's not enough animation for interacting with the environment). But theoretically, in a game that aims to do both perspectives justice, it would be an expensive and time consuming process. And not sure if it would be worth it. I imagine a lot of people that claim to hate FPP will buy the game anyway. Not all, surely, but the remainder might not generate enough in sales.

And, of course, in this case, there's the difficulties associated with adapting the Interactive Scene System into TPP, and the player being able to see things via TPP they wouldn't in FPP (thus making it more difficult to set up things like ambushes, surprise car attacks, etc).

Can you design a game like 2077 with both perspectives in mind? Surely, yes. But at this stage in development, or even at last year's stage in development, I highly doubt it would be as simple as adding an optional mode, despite what many people believe.

None of those coincide with the S nor is quite as big a part of the game.

To be fair, we actually don't have any evidence that they are smaller parts of the game. In fact, if CDPR keeps to their word by allowing players to usually have multiple paths through a mission (some of which/many of which may even be nov-violent), I'd argue that shooting may just be a very small part of some people's games. Which is not to say it will never happen. But it would not surprise me if I could spend most of my time talking, exploring, sneaking, hacking, and engineering and a smaller part going all shooty shooty bang-bang.