Functional iron sights and virtual reality

[Garrison72]

Bullet time has been used to death now in shooters, maybe there is a more creative solution. I also disagree with Macloud that TP aiming is ridiculous as it's the same action you perform in FP - move reticle over target, press key to fire. I thought that Splinter Cell online gameplay looked like a great compromise. As for Vats...ugh. Tedious as hell imo. I want combat to stay in real time.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I am partially in agreement with Slim. Realtime combat all the way. I have no issue with the use of bullet-time, especially when it comes to allowing the representation of faster reaction times. If there is another realtime alternative though I would like to hear it.

3rd and 1st person aiming, while technically the same, does feel different. I was fine with it in ME, though I couldn't get to grips with it in FA3 and FA:NV.

 

[Sydanyo]

As for Vats...ugh. Tedious as hell imo. I want combat to stay in real time.

I am partially in agreement with Slim. Realtime combat all the way. I have no issue with the use of bullet-time, especially when it comes to allowing the representation of faster reaction times.

Yeah, OK. I hear you. Well, here's from the mouth of Mr. Morgan Blackhand himself:

"Let me give you an idea of how fast boosterware is. There was a guy in the 102nd Cybercav back in Panama City. One night, we were all real high on something - must have been 'Lace - and some flathead fired off a round. This guy actually - believe it or not - caught the round in his hand - a one in a million chance, sure, but he did it.

Of course, it blew his hand right off. But the way he figured it, he could always buy a new hand, and he'd be gettin' drinks off that story for the next ten years..."

Cyberpunk 2020 core rulebook, page 81.

Now tell me, how would you represent that in a game if you're going to keep it real time? Because, mind you, it's not just the first action where these guys are that fast. They do it each round. And yes, of course it's just a story within a game, but it's not all bullshit if you know the game mechanics. Normal people throw initiative with REF + d10. Solos throw initiative with REF + Combat sense + cyberware + bioware + pharmaceuticals + d10.

Yeah, the fact is, unless you utilize some kind of a system such as V.A.T.S. or bullet time, you're going to have to remove this very integral part of the game; the speed of solos.

 

[Sardukhar]

That wasn't because of his boosterware - Morgan is exaggerating for impact. Sure the 'ware let him get his hand up in time as the other guy fired, but as Morgan says, it's a one in a million chance to do it time and in the right place.

That was a Luck roll and a few tens.

Combat sense doesn't mean you physically move faster - it means yo have a jump on getting "hot" while the other guy is still coming to grips with things. Bullets going by don't check against combat sense.

Outside gene modification - a process highly unlikely to have been available when Morgan was serving - and FBC, boosterware can get an already-fast person's REF to 11 and init boost to 13. 14 with Sandevistan but that takes 3 seconds to come on-line.

So you're fast. But Ref 13 is only 2 to about 3 times as fast as a normal human at 4-6 REF.

Ungodly quick compared to you or I, but nothing like the speed required to have your hand come up and cover a foot or two of space and intercept a bullet travelling at 1300 feet per second goes by from, say, 20 feet, ( which is unlikely - crowded bat, it would have hit someone. 5 feet is more likely). That bullet covers twenty feet in 1/65th of a second, ten feet in 1/130th of a second, 5 feet in 1/260th of a second.

So, although your super fast guy might get his hand up in 1/10th of a second, ( trying doing that up and down 10 times in a second for example of how FAST we're talking), he is hopelessly outclassed by the bullet.

Why, yes, I had the same argument as you did Mac, long ago. This was my Refs response, minus the exact math.

I am not sick of bullet-time at all, though. I still like it. I also can't see a good way to represent super-quick reflexes relative to people around you.

 

[Sydanyo]

The way I see the anecdote I posted is this. The point isn't that the solo was fast enough to grab the bullet once it left the barrel. The point here is that he was fast enough to get there before the guy had even pulled the trigger. That's how initiative works. Unless of course we're talking about surprise rounds, but in this case, I doubt this solo was surprised by the drunk "flathead" who decided to play Billy the Kid.

The solo had the awareness to be allowed an initiative roll when he noticed a gun being drawn (or the motions leading up to that.) He obviously won it, and the way I see it he knew where the guy was aiming and decided to grab the bullet which hadn't even left the barrel yet. Add on top of that cybernetic arms, and I'd say it's possible he'd get his hand in the line of fire before the guy pulled the trigger and the bullet got there.

Anyways, the maximum INI I can think of is +8/9. Kerenzikov +2 INI, Boosterware +1 INI, Adrenal Booster +1 REF, Timewarp +3 INI, Berserker +1 REF, Permanent biomod +1 REF (this might be impossible with an existing booster, but since it doesn't say it anywhere, Bob's yer uncle.) So basically, assuming only 10 Combat Sense (since you can raise skills above 10), a potential of 29+d10. Compared to your typical non-solo character of around 5+d10.

EuroSolo tech would give their "equipment an additional +1 to whatever roll they modify" (SoF p.31), because here in Europe we know how cyber is made, so the potential would end up being +3 from Kerenzikov, +2 from Boosterware, +1 from the Adrenal Booster, +4 total from the pharma and +1 from the biomod, for a total of +11, so 31+d10.

MacLeod being a EuroSolo, these were all somewhat familiar to me.

With a MA of 21 (Corvettes, the +2 boosters and +1 from the bio blood), a guy like this wouldn't be far from the twinky wanky vampires in Twilight or True Blood or the like.

Anyways, all of that is up to nitpicking and stickling and RAW/RAI interpretation by people. None of that shit makes any difference though; solos are fast as sick, and none of us are, so if we end up playing a solo without such a mechanic in place, then it's not true Cyberpunk 2020. That's just the sad, ugly fact.

 

[Garrison72]

Well if bullet time is the only way to express the speed of Solo's, so be it. It's not like I hate it. I honestly can't think of another way to do it aside from speeding up your character's actions to crazy levels.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

I'm VERY biased on this subject so please don't think I'm trying to troll anyone else's thoughts.

I really, Really, REALLY hate games that substitute my personal skills (or lack thereof) for my characters.

If I want my character to be Dead Eye Dick and give him the skills necessary to be the god of shooting why should my personal inability to track my mouse to a target and click in the fraction of a second it's visible make my character the worlds worst marksman?

Obviously most people playing the game aren't RL programmers.
Should we require the players to actually write program code to play a Hacker?

Your characters skills should matter FAR more then your person ones in a game.

Then your hatred extend to a lot of games including : FPS, strategy games, racing games, platformers, Super Mario Brothers well, anything that is a game of skills where you have a potential to fail, really

The thing is most RPGs focus more on the RP part then the game part.Some RPGs are just easy but incredibly repetitive grind to level up and that's a shame.

Fallout 3 was actually really bad for as an FPS: you could aim but some magic number made it so you would miss even if you had the best hand-eye coordination in the world. I;m pretty sure that mechanic made me miss at almost point blank range.

I wouldn't even be totally against the idea of having to write actual code to play a hacker in the game. After all, early games were more like tests to improve programming skills. A simple scripting language that would affect the virtual computers would actually be fun to play around with. EVE had an option where you could plug in third party scripts and programs you wrote.

If you're really that bad, you can always decrease the difficulty. as CDPR are aiming to be bethesda's direct competitor, that they will put an "normal" mode for casual people, but it would be really nice to have hard difficulty for some futuristic Rogue Spear-style gameplay available.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

Also keep in mind that not all FPS require crazy reflexes. Unreal Tournament did but not ghost recon, rogue spear or Deus Ex 1 for example.

The latter games had much more to do with intelligent gameplay and positioning then it did with reflexes.

 

[Sardukhar]

And Cyberpunk 2077 will hopefully reflect this type of intelligent gameplay, especially at upper levels of difficulty.

Which is sort of what Mac and I are talking about - for a jacked up Solo moving that fast, they can transcend the bounds of sensible tactical combat to do things fatally unsafe for others.

Although it may take them a second or two to turn on things like Adrenal Boosters, Sandevistan, inject assorted drugs, ( unless they are wandering around on combat drugs - shudder) and whatnot, by the time they are done they are pretty nuts. Hell, they are pretty nuts at a baseline 13 REF.

 

[schiff]

Also keep in mind that not all FPS require crazy reflexes. Unreal Tournament did but not ghost recon, rogue spear or Deus Ex 1 for example.

The latter games had much more to do with intelligent gameplay and positioning then it did with reflexes.

GR and Deus Ex are more about the stealth approach than anything. The amount of skill requiered in all the listed games it's variable, but UT and arenas in general are not about crazy reflexes: at high "levels" the aiming is so close to perfection the game turns about map control in the classical sense of chess. They are also the basis and the pinnacle to shooting combat in general whatever shooter you pick.
I agree about anything posted about how crappy artificial advantages guaranteed from the game itself are, like characters skills and such (like the fallout thing you mentioned or many things about CoD), and that sadly applies to 99% of the rpg games with combat elements. Ironsights are included too, 'cause the bullet spread drops and you can get things like a sniper pistol just like a stick can kill a huge dragon in rpgs. It's there basically to help aiming with pads.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

And Cyberpunk 2077 will hopefully reflect this type of intelligent gameplay, especially at upper levels of difficulty.

Which is sort of what Mac and I are talking about - for a jacked up Solo moving that fast, they can transcend the bounds of sensible tactical combat to do things fatally unsafe for others.

Although it may take them a second or two to turn on things like Adrenal Boosters, Sandevistan, inject assorted drugs, ( unless they are wandering around on combat drugs - shudder) and whatnot, by the time they are done they are pretty nuts. Hell, they are pretty nuts at a baseline 13 REF.

It''s all gravy if only the player has access to them but

It seems like anyone who is not a solo would hardly have a sporting chance. If Mac's idea is taken literally, you would see the enemy and then be dead before having the time to react (if that's not what he meant exactly, mea culpa, I don't understand the discussion with the PnP rules).

If possible, I would like to be able to play someone with no mods whatsoever (like Marid from When Gravity Fails)

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

It seems like anyone who is not a solo would hardly have a sporting chance.

Yeah, that was pretty much how 2020 rolled. But then in a straight up fight, the reaction times between a trained killer and 'Random Dude #374' are not going to be comparable. But there were ways around this issue:

If you get the drop on someone, they suffered severe initiative penalties and Lady Luck is a cruel mistress. Sure Solo's have the edge, (as they should,) and maybe that edge was a little too good, but at lower levels the differences weren't that extreme.

If possible, I would like to be able to play someone with no mods whatsoever (like Marid from When Gravity Fails)

I doubt there would be anything stopping you from playin an 'all-origional' meat-only character. But then there was nothing stopping people playing them in 2020. It's just that metal and boosters give you an edge. And as the example shows, that edge can mean the difference between life and death. That is why all the succesful Solo's got at least some modifications.

That's Cyberpunk!

 

[Sardukhar]

^ This.

 

[Sydanyo]

I would like to reiterate that while it's obvious a total initiative of 35 is pretty much just as effective as a total initiative of 10 against an initiative of 5 (the higher goes first and that's it), when you translate that into real time action, it has to be apparent somehow, and the way it's apparent is reaction times and speed. In FNFF you can only act once a turn (as far as I remember, it's been a while) even though you basically could act several times before someone else did anything, so in that sense it's just a question of who's the fastest to go first, but in a game (or a movie, for example) you'd want to see that solo with superhuman reflexes and initiative show it somehow.

Also, I can't remember exactly if it was mentioned anywhere, but we had an agreement and understanding that someone with such insane reflexes and initiative, especially when coupled with low empathy and an impending cyberpsychosis, as well as pharmaceutical use, one might very well be just a tad...twitchy. I think there was a female character in a movie, game or TV series who exhibited this... Just can't remember who or where.

Anyways, have those superhuman (hyperhuman, really) reflexes, initiative (reaction times), awareness and often body (strength, durability) as well (cybernetically or bionetically enhanced), complemented with cheetah-like speed (movement allowance) thanks to something like the Corvette cyber legs, with the +2 enhancement and +1 from the bionetic blood, and you'd seriously want to have that sort of a character be visually - in a very striking fashion - represented in whatever media we're talking about.

In fact, it would be interesting to see how a fully cybered out solo with the gear mentioned above, with cybernetic arms as well, weighing a cool 220lbs without the weight of the cyberlimbs - maybe a good 250lbs (or more, depending of course on the weight of the gear) with all the cyberware factored in, would actually move and maneuver if his speed is indeed that of a racing car and strength high enough to basically pick up a van and throw it. Should make for some pretty interesting parkour.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

The woman you are referring to is probably the female bodyguard in Johnny Mnemonic. She was wired to he'll and that meant she was unable to keep her hands steady and lost some fine motor control, if I remember right.

 

[Sardukhar]

Ugh. Molly Millions. In JM and Neromancer the novels and very cool. In JM the movie and terrible.

Mac, you can act in a 3.2 second turn as many times as you like at a penalty to -3 for every action after the first, cumulative. It has nothing to do with your init roll other than to determine when you go.

So you roll 35 init you go 3 or 5 times, ( -12 to that last action though! Ow), or whatever, but you can also go 5 times at 5 init. Now, WHEN you get to go after that first action is always a point of contention, but Rules As Written is that you take all your actions on your turn unless you hold some and you can take as many action as you want. GM allowed, as always.

So a Solo can go at Init 35, carefully fire twice, then his opponent can go 5 times on init 12 and kick the Solo's shit in. This replicates how mastery of a skill is superior to raw speed.

Put both together and it gets nuts.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I think the best analogy would be the classic 'High Noon Showdown':

Essentially the actions are being carried out at the same time, but one is just that little bit faster than the other - and probably less dead afterwards...

 

[Sydanyo]

Ugh. Molly Millions. In JM and Neromancer the novels and very cool. In JM the movie and terrible.

Mac, you can act in a 3.2 second turn as many times as you like at a penalty to -3 for every action after the first, cumulative. It has nothing to do with your init roll other than to determine when you go.

So you roll 35 init you go 3 or 5 times, ( -12 to that last action though! Ow), or whatever, but you can also go 5 times at 5 init. Now, WHEN you get to go after that first action is always a point of contention, but Rules As Written is that you take all your actions on your turn unless you hold some and you can take as many action as you want. GM allowed, as always.

So a Solo can go at Init 35, carefully fire twice, then his opponent can go 5 times on init 12 and kick the Solo's shit in. This replicates how mastery of a skill is superior to raw speed.

Put both together and it gets nuts.

Yeah, that's indeed how it is in the PnP, but there's no way that would translate into a computer (or console, blergh) game logically. Initiative, the REF stat and even MA all represent physical speed and reaction times, and that was simply my point; they're either visible in some way, or they're not at all.

Just need to wait and see whether they are or not, and if so, which method is being used to represent "hyperhuman" speed and reaction times.

 

[Suhiira]

I really don't see a need for bullet time.
Initiative should pretty well cover it.

I think the best analogy would be the classic 'High Noon Showdown':

Essentially the actions are being carried out at the same time, but one is just that little bit faster than the other - and probably less dead afterwards...

 

[Sydanyo]

I really don't see a need for bullet time.
Initiative should pretty well cover it.

Uhh...

How exactly do you suppose initiative is represented in real time combat?