Game Over

[wisielec]

Game Over

I find it most unsatisfying, when playing RPGs, the fact that companions can't die. That fact hit me lately when playing F:NV. I play with hardcore mode on in which the companions can die. I was shocked that I didnt pay any attention to this until now. The games made today are easier and easier!Gaoing back I think for me it kind of started with Oblivion where I was dissapointed with markers on the map, and compass. Dammit, a game for retards that cant find anything in the game. Morrowind was such a wonderful game full of discoveries (on the contrary I mean). You had to keep track of your journal wheere all the clues and directions to places were written down. Navigation, markers, autoaim/target, regenerating shields and health etc.Does it mean we're easy going? Are we lazy? What about thinking? Logical puzzles and riddles that made you twist your brain. When was the last time you saw those?What do you think?

 

[edk]

I enjoy good story and role-playing experience, and i have nothing against good marker on the map. Take Risen, for instance. Did the markers on the map ruin exploration? IMO they didn't, you just didn't have to spend hours trying to find where the hell to go. Or in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. The markers were always helpful and you could turn them off if you want. So no room for complaining here. And the puzzles in games- I never liked those, no matter how well they are done. They might suit the adventure genre, but puzzles in an RPG? Divinity 2 has some well-done puzzles, but puzzles in games are just not for me. I never managed to think the way the developers did, there was always a lever or something i didn't see in the pixel hunting.So, I am perfectly fine with TW2 with good helpful markers and not many puzzles.

 

[e-ahmet.823]

It must be the new gamer generation. If one finds a game too hard for him/her s/he doesn't play it or tries to find ways to cheat. Maybe it's because people are used to everything being quick and easy these days thanks to the internet. I'm in between because I don't cheat or look for walkthroughs at least before finishing a game for once except I'm really stuck and tried several times and couldn't make it. I like puzzles and riddles but it shouldn't be overdone because it gets tedious and frustrating. I hate the idea of "mortal" companions because I don't like escorting and checking their status every now and then. You're right games are easier and people are lazier. In Fable I, there were Demon doors asking you riddles to open, however it wasn't crucial to gaming. They were rather entertaining side quests. Other than that I don't know much about puzzles in RPGs because I haven't really played much of them. However, I found Assassin's Creed and Batman: AA puzzles/riddles enjoyable.

 

[wisielec]

So you say new markers on the map doesnt bother you? I understand, that is one approach. For me? I hate it when someone talks vaguably about some secret location somewhere next to a mountain peak - a clue to find it yourself and then BAM, its exact pin-point possition is marked in your journal/map. Guess it wasnt so secret with your PCs clairvoyance then?About riddles I ment the ones like in KOTOR games. It was optional. But it was worth the price - the award was significant. I'm not suporting pixel hunt to open some door or whatever (got my share of frustratioin with Gothic 2 on that one) but real clues and riddles that point to meaning and answer to problem. Finishing a chess move, tic tac toe or whatever along the lines.Companions that can die add to tactical approach before the figh...But an option to choose would make happy both sides of the fence, right?

 

[vilgefortze]

1. Mortal companions don't work for me. Do I play MY game, or babysit others? They either fend for themselves, or they get out of my way. I don't like them slowing me down.2. Markers are not bad. I just believe they should not be too accurate. Say you have a map and someone says he knows about a treasure cave. He marks the approximate location on your map with a cross, but the actual cave is somewhere close to the spot he marks, not at it. You still need to look around the marked spot to find it. In some cases, you can have directions given to you in terms of landmarks on the way. "Walk toward the charred tree till you see a large boulder to your right.Turn left and keep walking till you see a statue. Turn..". That sort of thing. One thing that does annoy me is your position marker on the map like a gps. You should be able to make out where you're on the map yourself just like most people do in real life.3. I remember dungeon crawlers like Hexen released ages ago where accidentally breaking a jar may reveal a sightly (very slightly) discolored brick, which when pushed, reveals a secret door or something. These days, they stop just short of putting up neon lights on top of secret doors etc.. There are also fewer puzzles. I love puzzles, and I believe it should be remedied.I remember games like PoP where navigating a room used to be like solving a puzzle. In their most recent installment, they actually used a flyby cam feature to show you the route through each area. I cannot recall having played anything in the recent past where I had to match patters/colors/work out riddles/anything that challenges your reasoning. it has come down to games like Drakensang where the hardest puzzles are to align a few levers by checking which ones are giving off smoke, and reversing them. Sad.4. @ e-ahmet: Batman AA puzzles were still decent. Assassins Creed 2 was a completely retarded game (with a good concept and nothing else) like the first one. The puzzles were not all that bad. In fact they came closest to navigational puzzles from back in the good old PoP:WW days. But overall, the game sucked.

 

[e-ahmet.823]

...Assassins Creed 2 was a completely retarded game (with a good concept and nothing else) like the first one. The puzzles were not all that bad. In fact they came closest to navigational puzzles from back in the good old PoP:WW days. But overall, the game sucked.

Would you mind elaborating your opinion about AC games, preferably in this thread? So that we don't hi-jack wsielec's topic.

 

[vilgefortze]

Would you mind elaborating your opinion about AC games, preferably in this thread? So that we don't hi-jack wsielec's topic.

Done. If anyone would like to discuss the AC issue as well, please comment in the thread e-ahmet has given the link to. Do not hijack this thread.

 

[Braag]

Games today are just meant for a broader audience, that's all. Obviously because these days there is a much broader audience that plays games. And thus the standards for each genre has changed. If someone made a RPG without map markers or some other features meant to make the game more "accessible"... it would get absolutely hammered by reviews because it would not meet the today's standards for RPGs.

 

[vilgefortze]

I'm not saying that they remove it. I'm just saying WE have the option of removing it.

 

[mrbenis]

Games today are just meant for a broader audience, that's all. Obviously because these days there is a much broader audience that plays games. And thus the standards for each genre has changed. If someone made a RPG without map markers or some other features meant to make the game more "accessible"... it would get absolutely hammered by reviews because it would not meet the today's standards for RPGs.

It would entirely depend on the context of what you're trying to accomplish. An area could be circled. The entrance to a cavern/mountain chain could be pinned but the rest is for you to determine.If TW2 was a truly open-world game I think I'd prefer it that way. I don't mind spending a couple of hours searching if the overall experience (visuals, sparse monster battles etc) made up for it.

 

[soldiergeralt]

in an age of sensory overload where people can't seem to get their rocks off without explosions and gun battles happening constantly, it'd be a nice change of pace for a more open experience with sparse battles. if the forests are as grand as they've been advertised, then the experience of trekking through should be worthwhile on its own.i too have fantasies of geralt exploring a large more open environment, of course he will be wearing armor in this vision.

 

[eskiMoe]

I hate the idea of "mortal" companions because I don't like escorting and checking their status every now and then. You're right games are easier and people are lazier. In Fable I, there were Demon doors asking you riddles to open, however it wasn't crucial to gaming.

I agree about the companions.. And btw. I loved the Demon Door riddles in Fable 1 but just wait for the Demon Doors in Fable 3. They're so easy it's insulting. A complete retard would be able to solve them..

 

[Corylea.723]

I enjoyed the riddles in Dragon Age: Origins, though they weren't very difficult.In TW1, Vesna Hood can die in the "Early Bird" quest, and judging by what people say in the forum, many people find that quest terribly frustrating. Geralt is hard to kill, and if the companions' health were as realistically fragile as most humans are, I think companions would be a pain. There's a reason why Geralt usually works alone....

 

[vilgefortze]

There's a reason why Geralt usually works alone....

Aye. Mortal companions will not make the game "difficult". It'll make the game "frustrating". I think the revival system should work fine.

 

[e-ahmet.823]

Revival? I think it makes it worse. They shouldn't die at all since Geralt does not. I mean you'll play the game to the end regardless of the fact that you may die several times in the course of playing. So what point of them dying if we're not punished for it somehow and that's an idea I don't like at all. What'll it be then? Some stupid magic effect of revival? Maybe the other companion casting a resurrection spell on the dead one? I don't think it fits to the game style of Witcher or my idea of it. I think it's not needed. It should whether be utterly punishing forcing you to start from the last save like the Vesna quest in TW1 or the companions shouldn't die at all.

 

[vilgefortze]

I didn't mean a spell of resurrection. Why will resurrections be necessary unless the person dies? I clearly stated "No mortal companions". I meant the companion KOed after taking heavy damage. Not dead, but say writhing on the floor from their injuries, incapacitated for the rest of the combat. After combat you can dress their wounds and stuff, and they'll suffer penalties for sometime, and then slowly return to complete combat readiness. If you have a sorceror on the team, most wounds can be healed almost instantaneously, except for cursed wounds, which may require special components to heal. Triss, for example, is (from the saga), allergic to magical cures. Is she's KOed, she have to be healed the normal way, and will take a long time to heal. Till then, she'll suffer penalties to her stats.

 

[cinarea]

games went to "casual" recent years.making a game satisfaying both players and non-players is hard and expensive.thus - we have lots of casual crap games.ideal thing is to have a game with a range of levels from super-easy to impossible, but usually PR-Marketing-BS people say that forcing casual players to play on "super easy",due to their lack of skills somehow challenges those ppl.I personally miss the days of Eye of Beholder, but I wouldn`t play such a tedious game now ;D ("where`s that damned button!!!!!!!! arghhh!!! I hate you all!!!")as I said - the best (but not the cheapest) solution is to place few different, yet playable, levels of difficulty.like:1.casual2.easy3.normal4.hard5.nightmareit can be graded by:-monster strenght-experience caps (provided farming is available or monsters yield more exp)-economy penalties (taxes, prices fluctuate,no new merchandise unless...we did a quest)-less loot-law modifier (stealing causes trouble, as beating up NPC, also cursing, pushing, arguing, harder to regain reputation and NPC sympathy)-skills modifier - some require quests and pure luck or money or social skills in obtaining some books/recipies/ingredients-reality modifier 1 - equipment can be damaged or destroyed or stolen,like : smashing a guy in plate armour with Strong Style has 50% chance of breaking your sword. (need to use Fast or Signs)-2 food and water required to remain alive, lack of it results in penalties to skills-gameplay modifiers - no saves but while quiting (or easier - just in few specific locations), karma modifiers pemanent - killing NPC causes irreversible karma (have to do quest other way or block some minor quests)I hope some of it will be implemented (mostly armour modifier to our fighting styles, equipment wear and tear, crafting and food&water)

 

[wisielec]

When I say companions death I mean death. With no "ressurecting" of whatsoever after the fight.Someone travels with you, you two get cought in a ditch with some nasty little post-conjunction buggers that can clean you to the bone - two options. Companion is on his own and probablz dies, you have a greater survability chance not worrying about anyone but yourself and your health. You say "hide under the cart" and stand your ground no matter what trying to protect said companion. That is more plot related division.On the other hand when a companion dies, he/she dies with all the penalties of his/hers demise (someone pissed, no contacts, no info, certain door closed).More important characters (eg Triss) when on the verge of demise can port to safe location and thus not available for the rest of the journey/chapter or whatever plot line she was needed for - again with all the penalties for not having her around.That would be a helluva better that K.O. and jump on your feet after the figh ends.

 

[cinarea]

When I say companions death I mean death. With no "ressurecting" of whatsoever after the fight.That would be a helluva better that K.O. and jump on your feet after the figh ends.

yep...but it should be an optional difficulty setting or impossible mode trait.

 

[e-ahmet.823]

@VilgefrotzeSorry, I confused some concepts. Your idea is good. Also, I like the others' ideas as well (like I'm the judge here ). The difficulty is a question for games for some time. Sometimes I wish we had a higher difficulty level. Anyway, @wisielecThat's a very good idea it would bring so much replay value. Maybe it would also ask if we wanted to continue the quest without Merigold for example and let players do a reload if they wanted.