Gameplay Demo - Your Suggestion/Feedback Thread

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You could counter it by giving the female V boost in other areas.

I don’t see s problem with that.
It's not a "problem" per se, but it's unnecessary.

We already have the option of distributing our attributes as we please. If I want to play a female character, that shouldn't mean I'm pigeonholed into playing a stealth/reflex-focused character. If I want to play a male character, that shouldn't mean I'm pigeonholed into playing a strength/melee-focused character.

And make no mistake - attribute points in 2077 will be precious. This is not DND where you have a bunch of points to put in all your different stats. You have a very limited pool, and on top of that, you can only get more by getting cyberware.

Something as simple as gender need not (I'll avoid "should") have an impact on your character's archetype.

I think a suitable alternative to this system would be to tie any bonuses to body type. Makes more sense from a gameplay perspective as its a bit more evenhanded/fair, because it is available to both genders and not just one or the other.
 
Maybe someone just wants to play a fat, out-of-shape character and not feel hindered because of it.
they should make physical stats based on body type and viceversa (i.e. strenght and agility limited by muscle and body fat). IIRC SCUM does that (I don't have the game and never will). Not gonna happen in CP though.
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You could counter it by giving the female V boost in other areas.
I was thinking about it, but can't really think about something where females are better than males by definition from a biological point of view

(anyone, please please please do not misunderstand my words, males and females are the same, just males have more muscle)
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And make no mistake - attribute points in 2077 will be precious. This is not DND where you have a bunch of points to put in all your different stats. You have a very limited pool, and on top of that, you can only get more by getting cyberware.
I fear you're a little too optimistic about that. But I'm a pessimistic guy, so....
 
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they should make physical stats based on body type and viceversa (i.e. strenght and agility limited by muscle and body fat). IIRC SCUM does that (I don't have the game and never will). Not gonna happen in CP though.
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I was thinking about it, but can't really think about something where females are better than males by definition from a biological point of view

(anyone, please please please do not misunderstand my words, males and females are the same, just males have more muscle)
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I fear you're a little too optimistic about that. But I'm a pessimistic guy, so....

I understand your pessimism and would normally agree, but in this case, they've flat out said the only way to get attributes is via Cyberware (post-character creation, that is). So I don't think it's too hard to believe, personally.
 
So males might get more strength, females better reflexes.
That's STRICTLY a game trope.

Yes males are (usually) physically stronger, have better endurance, and are able to walk further (female hip structure is a compromise). But females are no more, or less, gifted then males with regard to other attributes. As @Snowflakez said, were this a fantasy game with different races I'd be totally cool with a gender difference, it's not.

Looking through the game play demo, each characteristics (Sorry if I jump to conclusion) seems pretty weak. Shooting seems to rely on how well you are at aiming, maybe there will be a damage bonus. Hacking, when V does it, seems to just be a straight up check vs your tech level. I mean all the RPG elements from what I, at least, have seen so far seems to be secondary with little to no depth to them, when compared to just being a full blown action focused game of lets shoot everything up and keep the RPG elements simple and focused on story instead.
I tend to agree it's an Action game first and an RPG second based on what we've seen so far. I however have hopes that CDPR is creating the "dual mode" I've long commented on. No single game mode can satisfy both action and RPG fans. While it's not easy to have both (you essentially have to design/implement two separate sets of game mechanics) it's far from impossible. Publishers chasing the almighty $ will do what sells best, action games, but RPGs (good ones anyway) have a loyal, long term, fan base that will scarf up expansions, DLC, sequals (that aren't watered down like so many are), merchandise, etc. so have significantly greater long-term profitability. I hope CDPR continues to take the long view not focus on next quarters profits.
 
I disagree with the gender stuff not for political/moral/etc. reasons, but from a gameplay perspective, it seems unfair to punish a player for something as simple as picking the "wrong" gender for the character archetype they want. Especially because attributes can only be changed with cyberware, which is a pretty big deal.

That's STRICTLY a game trope.

Yes males are (usually) physically stronger, have better endurance, and are able to walk further (female hip structure is a compromise). But females are no more, or less, gifted then males with regard to other attributes. As @Snowflakez said, were this a fantasy game with different races I'd be totally cool with a gender difference, it's not.

I don't see why you are using words like "punish a player" or "no more, or less gifted than males", based on gender? I didn't even suggest any of the sort or that one is more capable than the other. And should it ever come to it, I would personally choose agility/reflexes over strength any time in a fight. So if any, it would be to punish the males :D

To me its no different than the stereotypes that dwarfs are poor at magic, but resilient, elves are good at magic etc. Its simply another way of giving players more options. Nor was it my intention to indicate that, if you choose a certain gender, you would "punish" yourself, rather than it adding or allowing for different play styles, if done correctly. For instant using heavy weapons could allow character with greater strength to perform certain power attacks, where as those with less strength could use the same weapon in some other way, which is not worse or better, simply different.

Another way which is also fairly common in games today is to link certain weapons types to specific stats, which would make high reflex character better at those and so forth.

Strength for some reason is always considered the "best", which might be useful if you have to hit someone with your hands. But using a weapon I would assume simply hitting your opponent in the first place is more important than how hard you hit. So think its a shame (Was hoping to avoid it :)) why differences between genders, should be seen so black and white. If something is good then the other must be bad and useless as if someone is being neglected.

[Real-world politics do not belong here. -Drac]

Now for those that want to see, why agility/reflexes is pretty awesome and would not punish females, they can watch this video, which is pretty crazy I think.

Video: Womens Martial Artists go Crazy
 
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I just had a post deleted for entering real-world political territory, so let's not go there. I would prefer not to have this entire discussion deleted for the same reason. In fact, you may want to edit your post for your own sake (I don't care, personally).

All I'll say is that nothing I've said in this thread in any way relates to what I think of the real world. I'm strictly talking about gameplay mechanics. Not real-world differences between the genders, or whether or not they exist. That's irrelevant here.

And should it ever come to it, I would personally choose agility/reflexes over strength any time in a fight. So if any, it would be to punish the males :D

Whether it's more punishing for male characters or female characters doesn't matter (I think you've made the assumption that I'm bothered because females would get non-strength bonuses - but I never said anything like that). I also prefer stealth characters, and if I want to play a male, I don't want to feel like I made the "wrong" choice. In 2077, gender should be a stylistic choice, not a gameplay one.

In the context of gameplay, I think in this particular game it would be negative for one gender to have advantages over another.

This idea that one (in-game) gender is better suited for certain playstyles is precisely the problem for me. What if I just like the female voice actor better, or the way outfits look, but I want to be effective as a melee/strength-focused character? Well, I made -- objectively -- the "wrong" choice, because I missed out on the bonus you get from picking a male, and now have to dedicate a few points to strength to make up for that difference.

Also, I'm not angry or anything. I think this is an interesting discussion, so long as we steer clear of the political stuff.
 
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I was thinking about it, but can't really think about something where females are better than males by definition from a biological point of view

(anyone, please please please do not misunderstand my words, males and females are the same, just males have more muscle)

Without being an expert on human biology :) I do however think, that there is a lot of confusion when doing these "comparisons" because its such a small part of being human that is taken into consideration. So if we take "Adam" and "Eve" as completely average humans :) Adam would be stronger than Eve, so he would be better in general, at doing stuff that requires physical strength.

But it should also be fairly easy to see where this fails. Because its like comparing a fast car and a slow car (please no one get offended :)) its very logic that the fast car will beat the slow car in anything related to speed, as its faster. So if that were the only thing cars were about, it would be easy to reach the conclusion that faster is better.

So its becomes sort of useless, as its such a narrow field of comparison with some very specific tasks being measured. But since humans are so equal in how we look, there is not really a lot of other physical attributes left to compare besides physical strength, if we look passed the obvious ones. Most of the stuff happens in the brain and as far as I know, females uses more of their brain for feelings than men do, so at least to me, if you should make any non obvious comparison you would have to dig through the brain, to figure out what each gender in general is better at.

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I just had a post deleted for entering real-world political territory, so let's not go there. I would prefer not to have this entire discussion deleted for the same reason. In fact, you may want to edit your post for your own sake (I don't care, personally).

Good advice will stay away from that. :)

In the context of gameplay, I think in this particular game it would be negative for one gender to have advantages over another.

Just to make it completely clear, I don't think it would work in Cyberpunk either based on the stats we have seen. There is simply not enough depth to it, for it to make sense. So we agree on that. I was talking in RPG in general that I think it could be used in a fun and interesting way if it were done correctly.
 
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Just to make it completely clear, I don't think it would work in Cyberpunk either based on the stats we have seen. There is simply not enough depth to it, from what I can see that its would make sense. So we agree on that. I was talking in RPG in general that I think it could be used in a fun and interesting way if it were done correctly.
Oh, in that case we are of the same mind.

I'm actually a big proponent of these sorts of differences in fantasy games. As an example, Elf females in many fantasy worlds are talented spellcasters, and obtain bonuses to that. In fact, I think in some universes they are the only ones who can cast spells. And, of course, in Witcher 3 a large portion of the magic users are sorceresses.

Yeah, my only problem has been with this in relation to 2077.

And as I mentioned before, I agreed with 90% of the other stuff you said - lots of great ideas in that post, and it was nice to see you lay them out in such detail, after a lot of trailer analysis. :)
 
Hi, yes snowflakes said it right about what i meant about cover mechanics.

I might have stirred a bit of distress having mention about the male character thing. What i meant in my posts was that when say as a strart off there are some biological advatage that carries along for a character gender. so say he's a male, naturally and in the very general sense the body type has a biological advantage over female. But that's a reason why i had pointed out there needs of more character back story. but likewise, perhaps female has a advantage over social communication over males etc etc

maybe perhaps cdpr could include like athletic background, or character had previous trainings which delves into any of the attributes whether strength or agility etc. As character history is involved in the character creation therefore i see potential to include different back story which shape the characters themselves right at the start. But yeah sure during the game i don't see why not we can improve in areas which we started of lacking. just we have slight starter boon if we still use that word.

I also liked to see it reflect in the character models. so lets say we choose female V, so we have general stat strength is lowered, but with a back story she came from an athletic background, therefore increases strength and agility. furthermore it would increase immersion when it is reflected V's character model musculature and skeletal structure. She'd be more cut, fingers thicker, upperframes wider so forth. otherwise we might find we get stick figure anime characters wielding final fantasy like gargantuan swords. Then again, if CDPR is going for this kind of art style i imagine that would change a lot of the artwork. But don't get me wrong, yes we get cybernetics and mods to counter worldy weight and physical sizes, but i imagine the same mechanics applies in dealing with these which relative to each other ur character attributes and cybernetic advantage over physical objects and structure. my thoughts revolves around immersion and what feels right.

the more it involves real world type attributes i find it the more interesting. and it becomes more interesting as to why we add mods to our characters and finds ways about improving areas which are weaknesses. otherwise in a logical sense if it was that easy for everyone to just buff up become the strongest character without any hindrance or cost, wether personal or external, everyone would be doing it by now. this would then greatly change real world dynamics and how people interact which each other. in an overall sense, if everyone could get what they want just being born into the world and started working out on themselves then the world of cyberpunk would not be a very "distopian" place i imagine, there would be more happy people. But i by do no means say that once u choose a gender u are cut off from other attributes, just have their relative challenges.

I like these discussions does raise a lot of thinking, hopefully CDPR will take into account these in their game designs
 
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Hi, yes snowflakes said it right about what i meant about cover mechanics.

I might have stirred a bit of distress having mention about the male character thing. What i meant in my posts was that when say as a strart off there are some biological advatage that carries along for a character gender. so say he's a male, naturally and in the very general sense the body type has a biological advantage over female. But that's a reason why i had pointed out there needs of more character back story. but likewise, perhaps female has a advantage over social communication over males etc etc

maybe perhaps cdpr could include like athletic background, or character had previous trainings which delves into any of the attributes whether strength or agility etc. As character history is involved in the character creation therefore i see potential to include different back story which shape the characters themselves right at the start. But yeah sure during the game i don't see why not we can improve in areas which we started of lacking. just we have slight starter boon if we still use that word.

I also liked to see it reflect in the character models. so lets say we choose female V, so we have general stat strength is lowered, but with a back story she came from an athletic background, therefore increases strength and agility. furthermore it would increase immersion when it is reflected V's character model musculature and skeletal structure. She'd be more cut, fingers thicker, upperframes wider so forth. otherwise we might find we get stick figure anime characters wielding final fantasy like gargantuan swords. Then again, if CDPR is going for this kind of art style i imagine that would change a lot of the artwork. But don't get me wrong, yes we get cybernetics and mods to counter worldy weight and physical sizes, but i imagine the same mechanics applies in dealing with these which relative to each other ur character attributes and cybernetic advantage over physical objects and structure. my thoughts revolves around immersion and what feels right.

the more it involves real world type attributes i find it the more interesting. and it becomes more interesting as to why we add mods to our characters and finds ways about improving areas which are weaknesses. otherwise in a logical sense if it was that easy for everyone to just buff up become the strongest character without any hindrance or cost, wether personal or external, everyone would be doing it by now. this would then greatly change real world dynamics and how people interact which each other. in an overall sense, if everyone could get what they want just being born into the world and started working out on themselves then the world of cyberpunk would not be a very "distopian" place i imagine, there would be more happy people. But i by do no means say that once u choose a gender u are cut off from other attributes, just have their relative challenges.

I like these discussions does raise a lot of thinking, hopefully CDPR will take into account these in their game designs
I still don't like the idea of buffs (or debuffs) based on gender, but you laid it out nicely here, so have a REDpoint! :D

I do, however, like the idea of background-specific bonuses. I think that's even more immersive, and I hope they consider it.
 
Why would male characters be better? That just makes them the the preferred option to play as...

Its not about better or worse, just which has slight advantage - or disadvantage - over whatever attributes at the start. Its in a very general sense. There are a TON of whys and what happens that can make any gender have more advantage, but coming back to the sense of the game what the backdrop story of it is like, the looks. general biological attributes added to added to the character creation is welcomed. If this game has a different style, very fantasy orientated, or alternative like then this would be different. but looking at what the game is, which seems to blend a lot of real world and futuristic attitude, then i would like some biogical influence included as well. with variations of course - cyber enhanced, modern world mentality, mixed with retro etc.
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I still don't like the idea of buffs (or debuffs) based on gender, but you laid it out nicely here, so have a REDpoint! :D

I do, however, like the idea of background-specific bonuses. I think that's even more immersive, and I hope they consider it.


Thank you! yes notes have been sitting on my desktop since 13 september 18. only got round it now haha
 
Gender buffs are dumb.
Sure "male" and "female" have differences.
But ultimately, people are all different, some Males can be skinny and not very athletics
Some Women can be muscular and athletics (even put a good beating to a man).
I've seen a taller guy get beaten by a way smaller gal just because she knew what she was doing (and he had nothing much beside a big mouth).

Also, applying it as a gameplay mecanic would be super messy.
You start your game, you have your character points, up to you to select your gender (which has only a social aspect) and put the points in the caracteristics you want.
Should we make women faster than men? Smarter?
Where do we start, where do we stop?
What if I start the game as a male and change my gender (transexual)?

It's kinda sexist in a way to force your hand on your character, it's your character, up to you to put it anyway you'd want.
Mostly that Cyberware cancel everything you could imagine, you'd just need a bit more to be equal with oposite gender.
So to me it seems useless to put such restrictions on your character, you should be free to make it the way you want, there aren't any archetype in the human anatomy if you take it on the large scale.
 
Another way which is also fairly common in games today is to link certain weapons types to specific stats, which would make high reflex character better at those and so forth.
Actually I'm overjoyed Cyberpunk Red is splitting Reflex and Dexterity. Reflexes may help in melee but have basically nothing to do with shooting, that's dexterity, hand-eye coordination. IRL my reflexes have always sucked, but when I was younger my dexterity was significantly above average.

This idea that one (in-game) gender is better suited for certain playstyles is precisely the problem for me.
Again, in a fantasy setting I have no issues with this. As mentioned the whole setting is (almost always) a steriotype.

Hi, yes snowflakes said it right about what i meant about cover mechanics.
I also liked to see it reflect in the character models. so lets say we choose female V, so we have general stat strength is lowered, but with a back story she came from an athletic background, therefore increases strength and agility. furthermore it would increase immersion when it is reflected V's character model musculature and skeletal structure.
I'd REALLY rather not see playstyle (brute force vs finesse) gender steriotyped. Reminds me far to much of most Asian MMOs. Your playstyle should be solely based on your stat point and skills distribution. And decent character generation software will take care of "burly" vs "athletic".

Its not about better or worse, just which has slight advantage - or disadvantage - over whatever attributes at the start.
Problem is CP2020, and apparently CP2077 use a 1-10 stat range, so even a single point difference is significant.
 
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Problem is CP2020, and apparently CP2077 use a 1-10 stat range, so even a single point difference is significant.

Yeah, this was my thinking. If it was, say, Oblivion and it was a skill bonus that'd be a different story, since I think those go 1-100.
 
Yeah, this was my thinking. If it was, say, Oblivion and it was a skill bonus that'd be a different story, since I think those go 1-100.
Even D&D ranges from 3 to 18+, so a one point difference is around 5%, noticible but not terribly significant.
 
Problem is CP2020, and apparently CP2077 use a 1-10 stat range, so even a single point difference is significant.

Im getting that you're meaning that all character or gender should starts at 0 buffs and at 0 level or at equal points at each attributes? strength agily etc. then we would modify ourselves the attribute? i have no problems with this and i would entirely like to build my character from ground up. i loved playing with this way and have more control. If that's the case then character background would purely mean that it affects gameplay story and quest elements only and not add to ur enviromental effects.

I've never played the cyberpunk board game or asian mmo. I have played baldursgate but only got so far as the character creation and the begining. i've played morrowind and skyrim. but in experience, background history normally adds to attributes. then depending on the type of creature or human u are adds to attributes. i believe this is where the stereotype meaning comes in. or perhaps more effectively the world - overused. I actually would like to scream at CDPR saying "no varying attributes please!'' . however in this case seeing where their game is going and the kind of art style they are choosing (real world mimicry which includes time, weight, volume, space, world history, social and socio-economic progression, future blend mechanical, cybernetics, biological technological mindset evolution, realism blend with fiction arty etc + a ton more), i would imagine the game would introduce some attribute altercation due gender just for basic immersion and realism. And later on players will adjust character to counter these strengths or weaknesses.

To micro analyse what attributes should each gender have over the other would need to introduce a multitude of factors including how the majority of society in the characters time and space deals with and what historic significant happened during his or her timeline. looking at the game at a glance, its pretty evident the type of mindset involved and i imagine the attributes set for either should be relative to its current time and space.

this is what i imagine if attributes to be added to each gender and if cdpr would like to go down this track of introducing somerealism towards character creation.
as mentioned i'm happy for to have 0 buffs or 0 attribute changes at the start. thats easy. at least i dont have fret over choosing being under a certain moon to have certain blessings from whatever god anymore. My question right now is why would i play a male V rather than a female V.

That said, I'm sorry if i'm behind the times and didnt quite realise the sexism thing is quite strong now. i dont remember thinking about these things back then. In light of this then maybe CDPR would like to stay off this trigger and i would like to make a suggestion that they introduce more character backstory which will greatly effect character attributes, environment and story. or the highway - no attribute enhancement at all.

look forward to a great game
 
Im getting that you're meaning that all character or gender should starts at 0 buffs and at 0 level or at equal points at each attributes? strength agily etc. then we would modify ourselves the attribute? i have no problems with this and i would entirely like to build my character from ground up. i loved playing with this way and have more control. If that's the case then character background would purely mean that it affects gameplay story and quest elements only and not add to ur enviromental effects.

I've never played the cyberpunk board game or asian mmo. I have played baldursgate but only got so far as the character creation and the begining. i've played morrowind and skyrim. but in experience, background history normally adds to attributes. then depending on the type of creature or human u are adds to attributes. i believe this is where the stereotype meaning comes in. or perhaps more effectively the world - overused. I actually would like to scream at CDPR saying "no varying attributes please!'' . however in this case seeing where their game is going and the kind of art style they are choosing (real world mimicry which includes time, weight, volume, space, world history, social and socio-economic progression, future blend mechanical, cybernetics, biological technological mindset evolution, realism blend with fiction arty etc + a ton more), i would imagine the game would introduce some attribute altercation due gender just for basic immersion and realism. And later on players will adjust character to counter these strengths or weaknesses.

To micro analyse what attributes should each gender have over the other would need to introduce a multitude of factors including how the majority of society in the characters time and space deals with and what historic significant happened during his or her timeline. looking at the game at a glance, its pretty evident the type of mindset involved and i imagine the attributes set for either should be relative to its current time and space.

this is what i imagine if attributes to be added to each gender and if cdpr would like to go down this track of introducing somerealism towards character creation.
as mentioned i'm happy for to have 0 buffs or 0 attribute changes at the start. thats easy. at least i dont have fret over choosing being under a certain moon to have certain blessings from whatever god anymore. My question right now is why would i play a male V rather than a female V.

That said, I'm sorry if i'm behind the times and didnt quite realise the sexism thing is quite strong now. i dont remember thinking about these things back then. In light of this then maybe CDPR would like to stay off this trigger and i would like to make a suggestion that they introduce more character backstory which will greatly effect character attributes, environment and story. or the highway - no attribute enhancement at all.

look forward to a great game
Just to be clear, I don't think me or Suhiira (I can't speak for others) were bothered by your suggestion because of sexism. We are all strictly talking about gameplay, so no worries - we're on the same page.

I just realized you may not be aware of this, but CDPR is indeed going for a "build your own character" approach. Players are given a set amount of attribute points, and they can distribute them as they see fit - think Fallout: New Vegas instead of Oblivion. No class choice or anything like that.

I'm not sure if it's modified by background or not, to be honest. For now, all that's been confirmed in that regard is that backgrounds have an impact on the game's story... Not sure if it has an impact on actual gameplay or stats.
 
I just realized you may not be aware of this, but CDPR is indeed going for a "build your own character" approach. Players are given a set amount of attribute points, and they can distribute them as they see fit - think Fallout: New Vegas instead of Oblivion. No class choice or anything like that.

Ahah! excellent! thanks for telling me, didnt know that! redpoint fo u!
 
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