Gameplay - depth vs complexity vs fun

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Gameplay - depth vs complexity vs fun


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Suhiira;n9506911 said:
The ability to swap in-and-out of 1st and 3rd person on the fly would be useful.
One thing that REALLY bothered me about W3 was candle on, candle off, candle on, candle off, when trying to search a room.

GTA5 has bunch of contextual setting for controlling 1/3rd person views if I remember right.

As for the "candle on, candle off" this never should have been such a big, annoying problem.
All that needed to happen was a setup to HOLD the use key to "candle on. candle off" but simply pressing the use key to default to opening containers.
A little context sensitivity would have solved the problem.

On the other hand, there's also the question of how much of this wound is self inflicted from being a kleptomaniac.
Right now in game I have 18,000 at level 23, and I still snatch everything I can get my hands on.
 
Item hoarding and money overload is a frequent problem in RPG's. It's kind of annoying to notice that my character is probably the richest man in the game with a supermarket in his pockets in addition and there's nothing worthwhile to do with that as nearly all equipement is looted from boxes and enemies, and features outside that - such as playerhomes and decorations - tend to be pointless at best.

That's something CDPR might want to look at with CP2077. How to make currency worthwhile.
 
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kofeiiniturpa;n9510441 said:
Item hoarding and money overload is a frequent problem in RPG's. It's kind of annoying to notice that my character is probably the richest man in the game with a supermarket in his pockets in addition and there's nothing worthwhile to do with that as nearly all equipement is looted from boxes and enemies, and features outside that - such as playerhomes and decorations - tend to be pointless at best.

That's something CDPR might want to look at with CP2077. How to make currency worthwhile.

Aw man....inventory. No matter what they do they'll make someone mad with this one.

It always annoyed me too with many RPGs where you walked around with a bag of holding style inventory and you wouldn't even use 95% of the stuff you picked up. Unless it was an Elder Scrolls game that has a weight limit to limit hoarding, though that still didn't stop people. And if CDPR went with the Cyberpunk 2020 inventory style people will get mad they can't hoard because of 2020's attachment to reality in that you could only carry so much gear on you at any one time and depending on GM you would have to make choices on what guns you have on you at any time. Course that to would all depend on which 2020 character sheet you were using for your character.

It'll be interesting to see how CDPR handles this.
 
What about Star Citizen? That's impressively complex. It's between Cyberpunk 2077 and Star Citizen for they are the most ambitious games in development right now.
 
ChrisStayler;n9512951 said:
What about Star Citizen? That's impressively complex. It's between Cyberpunk 2077 and Star Citizen for they are the most ambitious games in development right now.

Star Citizen is anything but impressive, complex or impressively complex. From what I've seen it's a bug ridden scam developed by people who don't know what they're doing ran by Chris Roberts who did bring us Wing Commander but his later ventures weren't so great and they spent how much on a cappuccino machine? And that they have been selling "ships" for upwards of $500 for a game that's nowhere near completion that's about how many years late?

I have more faith that CDPR will make 2077 a perfect representation of 2020 with to many details to count that would make Rockstar jelly.
 
kofeiiniturpa;n9511441 said:
Yeah, I get you and I did think about that, but in my view it doesn't really touch the back/forth tedium (which is a different kind of tedious if you can just teleport via fast travel) and meaninglessness of the gameworld. If it took you 20 minutes to cross the map with a speedbike, full throttle, there's a ton of map that's "just there" without any other purpose than for you to cross. Only props to look at and the content density is faaaaar and wide. That might fit with a forest based fantasy land like Witcher (although I through the maps were too big for their own good there too), or an abandoned dead city like Dying light, but it's kind of waste gameplaywise in a big bustling city. Content density certainly doesn't be the same all around; quieter places do exist, and it'd turn into a Bethesda drivel if there was "dungeon/enemygang every five meters", but there is a line to draw between those.

GTA, Saint's Row, Assassin's Creed, Watchdogs, Sleeping Dogs, you name it. They all have the same ailments. I would wish CDPR didn't turn a blind eye on that with CP2077 here (least of all just for showing off that they can go bigger....).

I'd much rather have smaller maps all around Night City with abstracted travel between them. Even if the combined landmass of those areas would be 4 times Witcher 3 as rumoured...

Not sure if this is still the right thread, but anyway, good point about the use of multiple (relatively) smaller maps in Witcher 3. Although in that game there is a specific reason for their use, the areas are far away from each other (they are in different countries/kingdoms), merging them would be either unrealistic or require unreasonably long travel times and huge maps.

In any case, the perceived density of a map depends on how fast the player can travel, if you get a car (I recall CDPR hiring developers with experience in vehicle dynamics some time ago, but I may remember wrong) that is twice as fast as Roach, then doubling the map dimensions (4x area) still leads to the same travel time from one corner of the map to another. By contrast, in Skyrim, horses are about as fast as the player's character is on foot. But regardless of the size and density of the map, what is most important is that it is well designed, believable, and interesting to explore, so it can have both large and relatively empty environments and populated cities as long as it does not become tedious. Quest design probably also makes a difference, it is not good if the player is unnecessarily frequently sent back and forth between distant points on the map (e.g. in Skyrim to retrieve something from a randomly selected dungeon).
 
sv3672;n9517681 said:
In any case, the perceived density of a map depends on how fast the player can travel

In a way, yes. But relying on speeding through it also assumes the player is travelling on that speed all/most of the time, and that he has to be since it'd take ages of tedium to walk through. And it doesn't touch the issue with what's there when/if the player decides to stop.

In a way, it kind of forces the movement and progression because by stopping you are very likely most of the times in the middle of nothing with nothing to do but start speeding again. And as said previously, there is certainly stuff around and things going on, but you can not do anything with it but look and bump into because you aren't meant to interact with it in any meaningful way, you are meant to either ignore or marvel at it, and in my mind that's pretty damn empty when thinking about gameplay in a supposed bigass RPG the maker of which will no doubt praise to heavens as a new revolutionary way of being an RPG (like they did with Witcher 3 and it was not revolutionary in any way, just more of the same done better than most in some ways and worse in others).

 
Sardukhar;n9518961 said:
So I'll stick posts about (mostly mechanical) gameplay, from other non-gameplay-dedicated threads, here.
You're so good to us.
:cheers:

HOLD ON !

Did I just complement Sard ???????
 
As it is ever so often heard in these forums too that "Balance isn't important, this is not an MMO", here's an interesting writeup on the subject by Obsidian's Josh Sawyer:

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/161...e-player-crpgs

It's an good read, here's a choice quote:

Josh Sawyer said:
Someone on twitter asked me this question and I think it’s worth answering in a longer form than twitter allows. I’ve already answered this question in brief and in video form at various points, but I think it’s important to address here:

Something that bothered me from PoE was the constant updating to classes and races to balance them. Did you guys worry about this>

In Baldur’s Gate I or II or even the Icewind Dale series? I mean really who cares if one class is OP or Race or Hybrid class? >>

You guys are making a single-player RPG not an MMO or game with a online multiplayer component.​

Variants of this question are common in single-player CRPG circles. The implication is that balance is important in an MMO/multiplayer environment but it is not important (or so much less important that it doesn’t merit addressing in patches) in a single-player CRPG.

I would like to repudiate this in two general ways: 1) I will argue that overall balance is important and valuable for players in single-player CRPGs 2) I will argue that individual CRPG players and CRPG communities overall do not present consistent objections to tuning and this undermines the general complaint. It is not the responsibility of individuals or communities to be consistent in their feedback, but it is the job of the designer to design, which means considering the needs of the audience by listening to and interpreting feedback on a broader scale.


Yes, Balance is Important in Single-Player CRPGs


I think it’s easy enough to make the first point through reductio ad absurdum: why not give AD&D fighters 1d4 hit points per level, a worse THAC0 than wizards, and worse saving throws than any other class? Obviously it’s because playing them would feel terrible. Why don’t we give all of the enemies attacks that do 1-3 damage, a quarter of the hit points of the PCs, and rock-bottom defenses? Because playing through that would feel boring for anyone who had the slightest interest in combat content and systems.

Some may say, “Hey, no one is arguing that balance isn’t important at all,” but in fact that is what many people directly say or suggest. Maybe they don’t really mean it (which I will get to later), but that is often what comes up. If we can agree that some degree of balance is important, then there’s no point in suggesting anything to the contrary and we’re really just debating to what degree is balance important and worth a) design consideration pre-launch and b) patching.

In my view, balance in a single-player CRPG is important to the extent that it allows players making different character and gear choices to be viable through the content of the game. It is always important to remember that system design (including class, race, ability/spell, and item design) is one part of the equation. Content makes up the other big part (setting aside UI/UX for purposes of this discussion).

When our area and system designers build encounters, they have to be built around an understanding of party capabilities: their overall statistics, their available gear, their consumable items, and their various abilities. In a traditional D&D-style CRPG, this spectrum of possibility gets wider and wider the higher the levels get and the more gear becomes available to the player. The less balanced individual choices are from level to level and item to item, the more difficult it is for area designers to design content that works for a spectrum of choices.

Didn't care to make a thread about this and this thread seemed like the right place...
 
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I could have sworn I saw a topic wandering around somewhere in this thread once . . . hmm -- must have just been a hologram, or an acute inverted laser refraction.
 
Moderator: One post deleted. Sorry, folks, but our rules prohibit discussing world-view topics -- especially controversial ones -- which are not directly related to the games. So, we'll have to forestall this here, and get back to Cyberpunk.
 
Suhiira;n9747721 said:
Quoting myself.

Suhiira;n9746921 said:
Does it matter?

Of course it matters! Suppose I figure I made it up. Then, the next time I take multiple samples from the cookie tray for kids at the grocery store, I start getting shot at by these aggressive robot dogs. The store flies into a panic, I need to slip into Matrix-mode to get away...that would be sooo embarrassing.

_______________


Back on topic...

I do wonder if a form of alignment system might benefit Cyberpunk. The thought is a little, baby butterfly in my mind right now, but I'm thinking something like a "psychological evaluation score" that you have to try to stay in sync with in order to progress with certain factions. If they feel you're falling out-of-sync with their tenets...one door closes and another opens.
 
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SigilFey;n9750781 said:
Back on topic...

I do wonder if a form of alignment system might benefit Cyberpunk. The thought is a little, baby butterfly in my mind right now, but I'm thinking something like a "psychological evaluation score" that you have to try to stay in sync with in order to progress with certain factions. If they feel you're falling out-of-sync with their tenets...one door closes and another opens.
It more-or-less has one already, the reputation system.

If you have high cred with unsavory groups doesn't that indicate your moral perspective, i.e. "alignment"?
 
kofeiiniturpa;n9751001 said:
That's historically very relevant company you put me with there, I think my shares just went up a notch.

do you have over 10 million confirmed kills we don't know about? had political rivals "disappeared"? invaded and oppressed sovereign countries?

i'm starting to think this whole alignment system is lacking a third axis relating to SCALE... CP2077 should address that with their morality index ;)

 
eraser7278;n9751021 said:
do you have over 10 million confirmed kills we don't know about? had political rivals "disappeared"? invaded and oppressed sovereign countries?

Some things are better left up in the air. For the time being, at least.
 
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