Gameplay - depth vs complexity vs fun

[kofeiiniturpa]

Areas based on enemies/player level is a huge mistake. I remember not visiting a lot of areas in Witcher 3 because of low level enemies.

I hear the bandits with glass armor from Oblivion calling again.... The point of character progression is that you get better. This is shown by earlier enemies becoming easier.

Cyberpunk 2077 should instead have an unpredictable world where low level and high level anemies appear everywhere and anytime.

I support this otherwise, but there is the worlds internal consistency to take into account too. You're not likely to encounter high tech up town gangs in the slums.


But anyway, Cyberpunk is skill based, not level based. This would suggest to me that the zones would be based on gear (by the ruling economical state of it) and that each might well have enemies that are skilled and cybered up to their eyeballs (somewhere there might be more of them somewhere less), but you can usually see that beforehand and judge for yourself whether to go for it. A guy wielding something expensive might not be the easiest adversary even if you yourself have been prepped.

 

[Mefris]

I hear the bandits with glass armor from Oblivion calling again....

Oh god no....*covers ears*....please mamma...make it stop...


The ones in Skyrim weren't any better.You'd go back to a mine or dungeon and suddenly every bandit,thug and beggar had a full set of Dragonbone/scale armor and a couple of weapons to match.If their goal was to kill all sense of progression while simultaneously giving immersion a good whack I think it's safe to say they achieved that completely.

Please no CDPR.Do not want.Ever.

 

[sv3672]

The ones in Skyrim weren't any better.You'd go back to a mine or dungeon and suddenly every bandit,thug and beggar had a full set of Dragonbone/scale armor and a couple of weapons to match.If their goal was to kill all sense of progression while simultaneously giving immersion a good whack I think it's safe to say they achieved that completely.

As far as I know, dungeon levels in Skyrim are "locked" after you explore them the first time, if you return later to the same place, the enemies will still be low level (see here). Also, bandits normally do not go above level 25 nor wear better than scaled (not dragon) or Nordic armor, except for bosses.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

But anyway, Cyberpunk is skill based, not level based.

The point of character progression is that you get better. This is shown by earlier enemies becoming easier.

That's it? Then replayability is more important than "character progression".

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

You took that for a confirmation that Cyberpunk will have levels?

That's it? Then replayability is more important than "character progression".

What was the context I responded to.

 

[Mefris]

As far as I know, dungeon levels in Skyrim are "locked" after you explore them the first time, if you return later to the same place, the enemies will still be low level.

You are indeed right.Got things confused with Oblivion.

Also, bandits normally do not go above level 25 nor wear better than scaled (not dragon) or Nordic armor, except for bosses.

I think the level cap was added later because I know I fought plenty of Dragonbone wearing Bandit chiefs by level 50.There were a lot of threads on the UESP forums about this as well IIRC(heck I probably wrote one of them).I'll have to take a look around the forum.A quick google search did bring this Reddit thread tho.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

You took that for a confirmation that Cyberpunk will have levels?

Of course there isn't even the slightest possibility of that happening! In CDPR we trust XD

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

Everything's possible, the ill rumors of late could be all true too.

This guy was almost falling off the building, but he could climb it up at the last moment. Luckly he didn't fall. When you want to do something, you can do it just like this guy did.
EDIT: woah he dies, what I meant was don't be like this guy.

 

[sv3672]

I think the level cap was added later because I know I fought plenty of Dragonbone wearing Bandit chiefs by level 50.

This is OT, but I did mention that bosses can be an exception, for regular bandits, Marauder is the highest rank at level 25 and with scaled armor or Nordic armor. Anyway, I do not think dragonbone is normal in the vanilla game, perhaps it appears because of a mod that increases bandit levels beyond the original maximum to make them more challenging.

You took that for a confirmation that Cyberpunk will have levels?

Would not be surprising, even if there are no levels in CP2020, it is the usual way of representing overall character progression with a number in games, and it is also easy to compare it with enemy and quest levels (if the game shows them like TW3 does) to determine if the player's character is ready for a particular encounter or quest.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

This guy was almost falling off the building, but he could climb it up at the last moment. Luckly he didn't fall. When you want to do something, you can do it just like this guy did.

The ghost edits, man....

I've read about that guy, I know he falls. Is there something you want to say with this or is that just some random musing like with the BTK thing a while back?

Would not be surprising, even if there are no levels in CP2020, it is the usual way of representing overall character progression with a number in games

Yeah, I know. I'd still hope they'd not go that way.

I think the character systems should be loose enough to not need the character level on top of it. Knowing that your PC is a terrible shot, should tell enough a story that going against opponents who are all cybered up and wiedling expensive gear is a bad idea.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

Yeah, I read about that, some chinaman daredevil dared a bit too much. Is there something you want to say with this or are you just posting something random like with the BTK thing a while back?

Players' freedom should be a priority.

 

[Mefris]

This guy was almost falling off the building, but he could climb it up at the last moment. Luckly he didn't fall. When you want to do something, you can do it just like this guy did.

If there's a point to this post I don't see it Lis.

Edit:Got an indirect answer:

Players' freedom should be a priority.

Don't take this the wrong way but...are you high?
Edit 2:

EDIT: woah he dies, what I meant was don't be like this guy.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Players' freedom should be a priority.

Yes, it should.

Yes it should.

And freedom means freedom to fuck yourself over too.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

If there's a point to this post I don't see it Lis.

Edit:Got an indirect answer:

Don't take this the wrong way but...are you high?

My point is that most things linear are not great. They are good, but not great.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Where did linearity come from?

 

[Mefris]

What's even happening here....where am I?I don't know anymore...

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

Don't take this the wrong way but...are you high?

It's true. I wonder what CDPR is gonna change with Cyberpunk 2077? I wouldn't be surprised with new implementations, specially considering that they already changed a lot since their previous tittles.

 

[Snowflakez]

Areas based on enemies/player level is a huge mistake. I remember not visiting a lot of areas in Witcher 3 because of low level enemies. If there is no challenging enemies in a certain area, there is little to no reason to go there.

Cyberpunk 2077 should instead have an unpredictable world where low level and high level anemies appear everywhere and anytime.

I wasn't saying there should be areas based on level. Thats a fan made map. I was demonstrating my point about sectioning the map off "unofficially", as in, not via loading screens. There could be major areas (like TW3) with loading screens, but different zones in Night City could be also be sectioned off seamlessly like this. So, in south night city, you have xyz zones, and they look like that, but the entirety of south night city (or at least whatever portion CDPR hypothetically chooses to use) is entered via a loading screen.

Edit: WTF is going on with the forums today? Is Sard doing more ninja merging or something? Posts are disappearing.

Edit 2: That answers that.

 

[SigilFey]

With leveling, I'm all for leveled areas. I'm all for totally open areas with variously leveled enemies throughout. I do not not like it when the whole world levels with me, though. I like to eventually steamroll "junk" mobs. (One of my favorite things about Might and Magic VI and VII is that they occasionally threw lower-leveled enemies at you later in the game. Those orcs or something that used to give you so much trouble. Now, your wizard clears the room with single spell. Such an awesome way to show how far a character has come.)

I'd rather see specific enemies level up with you. Like, you know...enemy heroes. I guess it could work similarly to the Nemesis system in theory. I'd rather see street-rats that provide a challenge from level 1-5, be manageable from 5-10, and outright flee when they see me at level 15+.

 

[Snowflakez]

With leveling, I'm all for leveled areas. I'm all for totally open areas with variously leveled enemies throughout. I do not not like it when the whole world levels with me, though. I like to eventually steamroll "junk" mobs. (One of my favorite things about Might and Magic VI and VII is that they occasionally threw lower-leveled enemies at you later in the game. Those orcs or something that used to give you so much trouble. Now, your wizard clears the room with single spell. Such an awesome way to show how far a character has come.)

I'd rather see specific enemies level up with you. Like, you know...enemy heroes. I guess it could work similarly to the Nemesis system in theory. I'd rather see street-rats that provide a challenge from level 1-5, be manageable from 5-10, and outright flee when they see me at level 15+.

But how would that work in terms of the player's progression system? Do you just get guns and equipment that do +X amount of damage? What determines how easy/hard it is to steamroll enemies of any level?