Gameplay - depth vs complexity vs fun

[Sardukhar]

ya know, I used to think the EV penalties in CP 2020 were a bit harsh... but after doing some room clearing drills this weekend wearing a 3A BALCS vest (left the plates out), I think they might be a bit too lenient. Despite it being 70 degrees and cloudy out I sweat through my shirt in a matter of minutes and restricted my range of motion, swapped it out after that relay and wasn't in a hurry to throw it back on.

tru-fax: wearing body armor sucks... slightly less than getting shot

Yep, I've actually felt they were too lenient for years. Especially given people's tendency to stack.

It also illustrates a generally-ignored-for bookkeeping-reasons factor: endurance. So important in any conflict - really vital, and the thing most trained for - and yet ignored by PnP and CRPG systems.

 

[eraser7278]

It's funny, most groups I've been in nobody stacked worn armor, for fear of taking penalties to their REF. The things that did get stacked were skinweave and subdermal plating... game designers may want to revisit that blanket exemption they have from layering penalties... or tell the art team to draw up more designs for man portable 20mm cannons, whichever works for them.

 

[Suhiira]

It's funny, most groups I've been in nobody stacked worn armor, for fear of taking penalties to their REF. The things that did get stacked were skinweave and subdermal plating... game designers may want to revisit that blanket exemption they have from layering penalties... or tell the art team to draw up more designs for man portable 20mm cannons, whichever works for them.

Well, in the case of skinweave I really can't see it having an EV, any more then an armored-T does.
Subdermal plating however ... this just well might. Not so much because of mass or bulk, but primarily a probable loss of flexibility, since they are rigid plates.

 

[Suhiira]

Here's a really good look behind the scenes at game, and specifically open world, game design.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9tLcD1r-6w
( Mostly the last half to two-thirds of the video.)

 

[Rawls]

Here's a really good look behind the scenes at game, and specifically open world, game design. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9tLcD1r-6w ( Mostly the last half to two-thirds of the video.)

That is such a good open world action game. I wouldn't call it and RPG because there really isn't much choice and consequence. But awesome video.

I LOVE the design choice to explicitly focus time and resources first on the main quests, then side quests and finally errands late in the design process so the game doesn't feel crammed with meaningless fluff and fetch quests.

One thing I will say for HZD that the video alludes to at then end. I really think fixed player character personality is a solid design choice generally speaking. The narrative and emotional benefits that come from being able to say, "THIS IS WHO THE CHARACTER IS" vastly outweighs the downside of being able to be whomever you want to be IMO.

Now I'm not saying it would be best for cyberpunk. But I will say that almost every character I've strongly identified with with in gaming over the last 10 years has been to a large degree fixed - Shepard, Geralt, Aloy, Nathan Drake, Joel. In games that offer variety, the PC comes off as much less affecting (the inquisitor, the protagonists in FO3, New Vegas & FO4, Skyrim's hero, etc).

 

[Suhiira]

Good points all.
But I put it up mostly so folks could have a clue what goes on during development and how the long development cycle and even longer pre-official-development pro-typing period with a tiny team ultimately benefited the game. So many seem to just not have a clue why it takes years to make any game, end even more years to make a good one.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

almost every character I've strongly identified with with in gaming over the last 10 years has been to a large degree fixed - Shepard, Geralt, Aloy, Nathan Drake, Joel.

My experience (not too surprisingly, I suppose ) has been almost completely opposite. I get tired of unveiling "the story of this guy/gal" and listening to him talk. I don't find it interesting for its inflexibility and because it's usually very predictable. And once I've seen it through once (if it is even good enough to bother wholly through), it can be tossed away as there's usually no reason to see it again.

I don't get as much 'personal' high drama with an open PC, but I don't need that from a game (to be completely honest, I don't really want it). It's a game, so the first thing I want from it is as much player agency as possible in both gameplay and narrative. I don't think the story needs to be anything but an initial motivation (a strong one though) to set things in motion for the character and a reactive set of conclusions as per how you followed that motivation; between which you weave your own path (that the game recognizes, not like in Bethesda's games where nothing matter and nobody cares, just go do stuff) as much as the game allows. There of course needs to be strong writing, but strictly following that writing shouldn't be the central point, letting the player do his thing with it should.

I find it much more intriguing to try out what all I can do and what all ways I can tackle the narrative, that I have a say in these things, rather than following a specific someone's specific storyline.

This is what makes Fallout (the originals) and Arcanum such brilliant games. There is a strong sense of narrative, but it is all up to you how to go about it... and the game doesn't just set you loose witha character of your choice, it keeps track of what you do and how and responds.

 

[Snowflakez]

My experience (not too surprisingly, I suppose ) has been almost completely opposite. I get tired of unveiling "the story of this guy/gal" and listening to him talk. I don't find it interesting for its inflexibility and because it's usually very predictable. And once I've seen it through once (if it is even good enough to bother wholly through), it can be tossed away as there's usually no reason to see it again.

I don't get as much 'personal' high drama with an open PC, but I don't need that from a game (to be completely honest, I don't really want it). It's a game, so the first thing I want from it is as much player agency as possible in both gameplay and narrative. I don't think the story needs to be anything but an initial motivation (a strong one though) to set things in motion for the character and a reactive set of conclusions as per how you followed that motivation; between which you weave your own path (that the game recognizes, not like in Bethesda's games where nothing matter and nobody cares, just go do stuff) as much as the game allows. There of course needs to be strong writing, but strictly following that writing shouldn't be the central point, letting the player do his thing with it should.

I find it much more intriguing to try out what all I can do and what all ways I can tackle the narrative, that I have a say in these things, rather than following a specific someone's specific storyline.

This is what makes Fallout (the originals) and Arcanum such brilliant games. There is a strong sense of narrative, but it is all up to you how to go about it... and the game doesn't just set you loose witha character of your choice, it keeps track of what you do and how and responds.

Agreed! I don't lean quite as far away from fixed protags as you do, but I agree with 90% of this. I love to have freedom in my games, and the game recognizing the choices I make resulting from that freedom is always nice.

I don't think it's impossible to have a fixed protagonist in such a game, I think it just makes less sense and, as you said, doesn't really grip me quite as much. I've always been into (As you probably know by now) RPing my own created characters, making decisions based on the personalities I develop for them, etc... This works to a degree in games like Skyrim, Oblivion and even Divinity 2, but the former games lack any recognition of choices you've made or the type of character you're playing.

One of my main hopes for 2077 is that I get to create my own character. That will be huge for me. I absolutely do not want a fixed protagonist under any circumstances. I do not want to delve into another Geralt. I won't go so far as to say it's a dealbreaker, but it'll definitely affect my enjoyment of the game.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I don't think it's impossible to have a fixed protagonist in such a game

Yeah, it's not impossible. There could be a highly reactive and elaborate storyline for little Jack or whoever. But a fixed character is a fixed character. It's not 'your' character, it's the writers intended protagonist and there's a pretty distinct difference in the feel of playing 'your' or 'his' character.

There is some 'fixedness' in almost all characters (like the Vault Dweller in Fallout... he has an implied but not too specified history and his initial skills reflect that). There needs to be something relatable to the PC (in Cyberpunk, the lifepath handles that part) lest he's just a sort of 'adult infant' that one day fell from the sky to roam the land like this :

(That's basically how TES games handle the protagonist, they just emerge, skilless and without a past.)

One of my main hopes for 2077 is that I get to create my own character. That will be huge for me. I absolutely do not want a fixed protagonist under any circumstances. I do not want to delve into another Geralt. I won't go so far as to say it's a dealbreaker, but it'll definitely affect my enjoyment of the game.

Likewise.

 

[Rawls]

I don't get as much 'personal' high drama with an open PC, but I don't need that from a game (to be completely honest, I don't really want it).

We're looking for different experiences and that is totally fair. I mostly still play games because I love experiencing stories where it feels like I have a hand in making them. But ultimately I want to experience a great story, not learn about an interesting narrative through differing actions. The story is the point for me ... not the initial motivation. It can't be just initial motivation because stories are more than just the main characters actions in the world. There are usually other external forces that are out of the main character's control in a captivating tale. And those external stimuli are what show the path of the story. You go to place x because of external stimuli y. In most open world games, you normally don't have to do it right away, but there is a continuing motivation within the story to journey somewhere, or uncover something.

Largely were agreeing that there is an initial motivation, and that in an RPG the player has agency in picking the path to overcome the challenges in his or her way, has to make choices, the consequences of which are felt within the game. We're on the same page there. Where we're disagreeing I think is how important the story (and how it's presented) is to the ultimate quality of the game. That's a matter of taste ... and we just disagree.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I mostly still play games because I love experiencing stories where it feels like I have a hand in making them.

We are gnerally on the same page here. It's just the nature of how those stories are produced and projected to us that seems to differ (even greatly). I prefer the Fallout style storytelling method that's closer to a PnP setup and allows me to be the one to carve it out of the game in what ever form it might come for any given character. Where story is the "point" for you, gameplay is the "point" for me. Good storytelling is important, obviously, but it should come by the terms of gameplay not as a scripted interactive novel/movie.

It can't be just initial motivation because stories are more than just the main characters actions in the world. There are usually other external forces that are out of the main character's control in a captivating tale.

Oh, sure. But if the PC doesn't find out about any of that, he (nor the player) need not know about it. And if it is something crucial to the progression of the story, it'll come around at one point or another in one form or another. Ideally, the 'whole' narrative ("whole" meaning more than just the main story arch) is never fully open to any one character. The PC at hand gets what he can (through 'who' he is made to be).

I think the mainstory should be flexible in that it can withold from showing some things the PC might not either encounter because the player doesn't 'go there' (for what ever reason), or because the PC is not capable of getting those parts. That the main arch is not a forced A to B to C to D these things must happen or the story breaks.

and we just disagree.

That's Ok. How dull would it be, if every other post (after a bigger point) read "I agree" then proceeding to repeat the previous post in small quotes saying "I agree" again for all of them individually?

 

[SigilFey]

I'm torn when it comes to preferring blank-slate protagonists vs. pre-defined protagonists. On the one hand, I often find I get far more immersed in the game and sucked into the world when I get to create my character in my mind. So, Elder Scrolls, Amalur, Dragon's Dogma, etc. are the games I'm most likely to play repeatedly. But the games I think are the best -- the ones that had the most impact and the ones I like the most -- are all pre-defined player characters: The Avatar from Ultima V-IX, Coud / Aerith / Tifa / Barrett from FF7, Geralt (obviously)...

I really love the Bioware approach. The Bhaalspawn / Darth Revan / Grey Warden / Commander Shepard / Grand Inquisitor is such a fantastic approach to me because the role of the character is clearly established, but it still allows me so much creative interpretation in how to present them. (I only wish the games themselves were a little less linear.) I think that pre-determined characters (or at least partially dictated characters) simply add a way of drawing the player character into the actual dramatic action and story arc. Instead of being a sort of faceless, errand monkey that solves everyone else's problems.

 

[Snowflakez]

I think the important thing is that not every game needs to subscribe to one method of storytelling. Not every RPG, not every FPS, not every strategy game needs to put the player in the role of a pre-determined character. Nor does every game need to give the player the chance to create their own. Games would be extremely boring if they all followed the same method, no?

If CP2077 allows character creation (Which seems likely, but who knows), it doesn't mean this is the new norm for video games. Sure, it might temporarily disappoint people who were hoping for a fixed protagonist, but where's the harm in just enjoying both types of games and having different games from different (or the same, I guess) studios cater to that?

I like Bioware games, I like Bethesda games, I like Arkane games (Dishonored and the like) and I also like CDPR's past games. I like them all for what they are, and don't feel the need to shoehorn a certain method of storytelling into every game I'm interested in - mostly because I don't feel one method is objectively (or subjectively, in my case) better than the other. They are equally as good as each other, but they serve different purposes and probably slightly different audiences.

To me, I don't play Bioware games for freedom. I play them because they are basically interactive movies. I don't play them to have this wide open, Skyrim-like experience where my character's personality is the one I dictate for him. Similarly, I don't play Skyrim when I want an interactive movie experience.

But that's just me. Some people might feel very strongly one way or the other, and that's OK too, but I think they will miss out on a lot of great games as a result.

 

[Suhiira]

I recall a joke I once heard.

A man arrives in Hell and is shown to his personalized eternal torment.
A loving wife constantly telling him how wonderful he is, four children all under the age of six, a 9-to-5 job.
As the Devil locks him in the Devil comments, "Funny thing is, they have exactly this same room in Heaven."

 

[AsadaShino0821]

[h=1]depth < complexity < fun[/h]

 

[metalmaniac21]

depth = complexity = fun

FTFY