Gameplay - depth vs complexity vs fun

[Suhiira]

I have no problem with story pathways being being open or closed based on Character stats or in-game decisions, but random chance just seems kind of lame.
What the point in having a high strength instead of a low if you can just re-load and re-roll the chance of being able to break the door open.

It's boring in games for example, where you reload over and over trying to repeatedly lock-pick a door that jams after your lock pick skill fails, reloading and trying again. It should either be accessible or not.

Well, short of autosaves whenever you attempt a chance activity there's really no way around it.
If a player won't accept anything less then success then reloading is the price they pay.
I have zero sympathy for those that complain they "need" to reload.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

If a player won't accept anything less then success then reloading is the price they pay.
I have zero sympathy for those that complain they "need" to reload.

Agreed.

There are methods to disincentivize savescumming, though, some of which make it a real chore and some that might also make gameplay more interesting (in some ways) through failure. I don't see any reason why not to explore those. If someone still goes through the trouble of scumming a box open, he has earned the rewards and the blame for ruining his own experience just like he did before.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

Seems to say American audience is to fault for the dilution of the games.

Do you guys really think the problem is those americans? Come on, the interview is giving us all the hints of symbolism. Witcher 3 went to 6 million cops because of americans alone? Come on, look at this shart from early 2017:

North America:	1.15m	25.7%
+ Europe:	2.40m	53.6%
+ Japan:	0.26m	5.8%
+ Rest of the World:	0.67m	14.9%
= Global	4.47m

The way CDPR changed things from Witcher 1 to 3 clearly affected the whole world.

I still don't know what lisbeth understood from those "Why not?"

You were defending how CDPR would make CP2077 hardcore inclined, and I presented evidence by posting the Rolling Stone interview in which Iwinski says how it will be casual inclined, but not in a simplified way but in a "smart" way, what I hope that he mean by that is that they're not going to cut off content in order to "simplify", but rather modify existing "hardcore" features in order for them to become more acessible thus in a" smart way".

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Do you guys really think the problem is those americans?

The interview seemed to say that they had to do diluting in order to get to the American audience because that's what they demand as having different priorities to Europeans. That's what I commented on, nothing else.

You were defending how CDPR would make CP2077 hardcore inclined

I was not.

I have no idea if they will, and they probably won't either -- at least not to the extent I would hope for. I made a couple of outlined suggestions that could, in the right hands, be used for more... "HC" oriented purposes, you asked if I really thought they would be "inclined towards the HC adience" and I said why not. The context there being the suggestions because those were what I was talking about in what you quoted me for, not if CDPR was actually doing it.

 

[metalmaniac21]

American video game consumers are kids with a NES controllers in hand historically, European gamers are big firs with computer of some sort, a platform where even make one game is a challenge, again historically. I.E. we are more inclined to actually play the game and support the company behind it than thankless americans.

*(not counting small expections here and there, it's a general picture of a current situation)

On a more serious side, the fact that CDPR is a european company also hurts the sales. Fallout: New Vegas, which developed and published by american studios, sold alot better in states even though didn't recieve favourable reviews and reception up until late 2015 due to events you already know guys. What about Witcher franchise? Still, european region dominates in charts.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

Actually, in the teaser we already saw a switch in classes: the cyber psycho (that didn't look like she was a cop) ends up in the Max-TAC. It all depends on the excuses that they give inside the game for the change.

Hmmm. these are the flags users can use in the cyberpunk subreddit:

• Netrunner
• Rockerboy
• Rockergirl
• Solo
• Techie
• Media
• Cop

• Fixer
• Nomad
• Corporate
• Crystaljock
• Mercenary
• EuroSolo
• Medtech

[HMMM INTENSIFIES]

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I'm sure your mistakes will follow you, no matter the class you pick hahaha

Yeah, I'm sure they will (and some might even follow you to the next playthrough, so you can "fix" 'em that time around).

Unless of course I can switch to a role to whom they cease to be mistakes.

 

[Suhiira]

Empire state building survived a B-52 crash after all.

B-25 actually, considerably smaller and slower moving aircraft.

And as much as I know many players hate "empty" maps, we can assume we'll have access to a car of some sort. If so we can't have an encounter every 100m. Now if you want to get out and walk ... yes ... much of the map may seem empty, but at 100kph?

I also think ... think ... my personal opinion ... to many people are reading to much into the potential multi-player aspects of CP2077. While it may well allow a few folks to get together in a player hosted server it's not going to be an MMO which would require CDPR to create and maintain (or hire it out) a server farm.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

And as much as I know many players hate "empty" maps, we can assume we'll have access to a car of some sort. If so we can't have an encounter every 100m. Now if you want to get out and walk ... yes ... much of the map may seem empty, but at 100kph?

why are games either with huge empty open world or games with small but full of details and things to do in them? Why can't a huge open world be relatively empty in terms of content in its vast majority, but at the same time have concentrated areas with lots of things happening in them?

 

[Guest 4149880]

It's a seamless multiplayer like Dark Souls, I don't think we'll need extra space for the multiplayer.

I think the game could only benefit from using a similar Dark Souls seamless multiplayer system using the same characters and play space as single player. I hope that's the case with Cyberpunk 2077.

 

[Jack_in_the-Green]

His exact words were "All the classes are going to be in the game". He never fully confirmed that they would be PLAYABLE classes.

The problem is that there always comes a point where the devs decide what the fuck ships into the game, and what DOES NOT. They dont want to hipe or advertise stuff they might or in fact ARE working on, in case they decide to erase it later from the game. They dont want to deal with the backlash, or the pressure of the fans/trolls/maniacs all over the place. An example of that is the absence of Iorveth, the Elf rebel, in the Witcher Wild Hunt. Although WWH is a massive game, they deicided at one point to "kill" Iorveth's story, although they had written it and presumably done smthg with it.

My point is, Pondsmith can talk about what they might be working on right now, but he doesnt decide what goes into the game, CDProject does. He's the father of the child,for sure, but he's only a collaborator for this gig.

 

[LegateLaniusThe2nd]

Honestly I hate to say this, but I have a hard time believing that everybody in the development wing of the big companies wants to create an amazing game but the accountants keep f*cking everything up.

I don't think that TW3 was a amazing game because there was a great amount of management, I think it is an amazing game because the people making it genuinely were passionate about it, and didn't have a "f*ck it, that's not my department" attitude.

An affront with the game, it appears to me, was an affront to them personally, because of their attachment to the source material.
An affront was not something to just be forgot about and blamed on someone else if it comes up again.

No CDPR most definitely needs better management on the gameplay department because this is the biggest weakness of all their games. For the all things CDPR games do right being weak on gameplay is a major setback and really hurts their games. I felt zero passion from the gameplay department of TW3 because it was a half baked lazy mess on almost all fronts of gameplay design. This is something I dwell on a lot because its really holding them back as developer. Hiring gameplay designers that are just as passionate and skilled as their graphic designers, artists, writers, animators, etc.. would do wonders for this developer.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

No CDPR most definitely needs better management on the gameplay department because this is the biggest weakness of all their games. For the all things CDPR games do right being weak on gameplay is a major setback and really hurts their games. I felt zero passion from the gameplay department of TW3 because it was a half baked lazy mess on almost all fronts of gameplay design. This is something I dwell on a lot because its really holding them back as developer. Hiring gameplay designers that are just as passionate and skilled as their graphic designers, artists, writers, animators, etc.. would do wonders for this developer.

One thing I noticed here is that people are either totally defending story while bashing gameplay completely, or they are doing the opposite.

It's not that hard to imagine a game that focuses on both gameplay and story, and I hope CP2077 is that game. CDPR is already great at making stories, and yeah they should really get better with their gameplay management.

 

[lord_blex]

I don't get your aversion to city size unless you're imaging it without fast travel or something.

the thread run away a bit, but... fast travel is an aid. for when you don't have time, are lazy, or are bored of that part of the game. if a game is only conveniently playable with constant fast traveling then they either made the world way too big or too boring. if you always just teleport to your destination then what's the point of the "in between"-parts of the game? they might as well just cut most of it out (instead of having the players skip it themselves) and focus on creating actual content.
whenever I start fast traveling (usually by the end of the game when I really want to finish it) I always notice that I start to care a little less. pop here, pop there, just going down a checklist. immersion out the window..

a realistic sized city would be interesting technologically, but it's hard to fill 500 km[SUP]3[/SUP] with meaningful content. some of it would inevitably feel copy pasted and a lot of it would be just closed off. not to mention 20 minute commutes to get to your destination..

 

[Suhiira]

"Gameplay" is a VERY subjective issue.
Are you into racing games?
Are you into flight simulators?
Are you an FPS fan?
Are you an RPG junkie?
Depending on your personal tastes the "gameplay" of any game could be viewed as good or bad.

 

[Suhiira]

why are games either with huge empty open world or games with small but full of details and things to do in them? Why can't a huge open world be relatively empty in terms of content in its vast majority, but at the same time have concentrated areas with lots of things happening in them?

They can. It's pretty much the concept MMOs use when they have "quest hubs".

 

[Sardukhar]

Yeah, kind of the thread has run away into our Number One Favourite Topic: Gameplay.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Yeah, kind of the thread has run away into our Number One Favourite Topic: Gameplay.

The most important thing in a game.

 

[Sardukhar]

The most important thing in a game.

That's what I hear.

About Tetris, anyway.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

That's what I hear.

About Tetris, anyway.

Tetris included, yeah. It's a game too.

Imagine if Tetris had bad gameplay; unresponsive and erratic controls, bugged speed setting per block and speed progression per level out the wazoo. But if it also had a really nice and heartfelt storyline for those falling blocks that really touched you, and it reacted to your choice of colour per row and how solid it was... Best RPG ever, I'm sure.