Gameplay - depth vs complexity vs fun

[kofeiiniturpa]

One thing I noticed here is that people are either totally defending story while bashing gameplay completely, or they are doing the opposite.

It's almost as worrisome an effect as everything needing to be an FPS of some sort that in RPG's it's nowadays often seen that it's all the same what kind of game it is otherwise (well, as long as it's not in any way reminiscent of anything older than 5 years -- and this allows the game to be the sort of uninspired and dry action schlock that nobody would give a shit about if the description didn't say "RPG") as long people get their "well written" interactive movie/novel within it.

It's not that hard to imagine a game that focuses on both gameplay and story

It really is not, but when will such a thing happen agian...? And not just "happen" but also done in a manner that really puts both on the same level, and where they actually interact (instead of being, by all intents and purposes, separate entities).

 

[sv3672]

If all the quests would be multi ending/thread/play through, with decisions, character development, and so on,
no mortal man could beat the game...

Unique quest content (i.e. anything that requires recording more dialogue lines, creating cutscenes, etc.) would probably not increase at the same rate as the map size, that is why I speculated that there would be more procedurally generated content or things like the POIs in Witcher 3 (but obviously improved). For comparison, The Witcher 3 has been said by the developers to have a map area 35 times larger than that of Assassins of Kings, but even with the expansions included, the amount of voice acting increased "only" by a factor of less than 4. But is it even confirmed that the statement of "4 times larger than Witcher 3" really means 4x horizontal map area? Although that is the aspect that is easiest to increase, and it also means only 2x map dimensions, which can be realistic with some large wastelands or other areas with low density of content and where the use of a vehicle is preferred.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

It's almost as worrisome an effect as everything needing to be an FPS of some sort that in RPG's it's nowadays often seen that it's all the same what kind of game it is otherwise (well, as long as it's not in any way reminiscent of anything older than 5 years -- and this allows the game to be the sort of uninspired and dry action schlock that nobody would give a shit about if the description didn't say "RPG") as long people get their "well written" interactive movie/novel within it.

I talk about casuals a lot, but they're the majority and they are the ones who change the market. Original ideas usually have a level of complexity that scares the casual away.

Given that, these are two alternatives most companies face:
1. cut off content in order to make things "simple", so that casuals won't be scared when playing the game (easy way that 99% of AAA developers do today)
2. find smart ways to make innovations more accessible to these casuals (what I hope to god that CDPR is doing with CP2077)

3. of course there is the third one where you ignore casuals almost completely and lose almost completely your game sales

And not just "happen" but also done in a manner that really puts both on the same level, and where they actually interact (instead of being, by all intents and purposes, separate entities).

CDPR is already good at making great stories but as @LegateLaniusThe2nd mentioned, what still needs to be done is to make their gameplay aspects better.

With the Witcher franchise they had a "story source" that is the original witcher books and they made great stories with that. Now with Cyberpunk they have the 2020 PNP that is both a source for stories and gameplay, this might facilitate a lot the creative process behind gameplay. Not to mention it would be smart for CDPR to not ignore the millions of hardcore gamers who bought CP2020 and at least try to please them in some way.

 

[walkingdarkly]

Let's be clear, no one actually knows what Cyberpunk is like but CDPR themselves. Don't get worked up over baseless conjecture.

Let's be more clear no one knows what Cyberpunk 2077 is going to be like except CDPR. While Many people, myself included, actually do know full well what Cyberpunk is, it's history, the history 2077 is based on, the city the game will take place in and Night City's own sordid history, all that info and more was released in a book 29 years ago penned by Mike Pondsmith, published by R. Talsorian Games. Though it was made more popular a couple years later in 1990 with the release of Cyberpunk 2020, the RPG 2077 not just based on but following when it comes to history, I hope. And that history went down a different path in 1990.

There will be wasteland because in Cyberpunk around 75% of the country is a waste land with packs of roaming nomad gangs and majority of all small towns are deserted, Night City itself is a coastal city that sprang up between LA and San Francisco, it's also a very large coastal city. As for destructible buildings, not likely going to happen in half of the city, this isn't a modern day city, you can get away with it maybe in the lower areas that aren't Corp areas but expect heavy resistance from the police force, there is Law and Order in Night City but it's brutal and draconian do to crime waves that happened in 1996 and after the Great Purge where the entire country lynched all Criminal Defense Lawyers. So expect a small squad of soldiers from Militech to come around if you try to take down a building or at least the local booster gang.

Man, CDPR, Mike and R. Talsorian should create like a modern tourists guide to Night City or just release a condensed web version of the source book Night City on this site so people can read about the city and the world's history. Because I see that a little over half the posters here haven't looked even a little bit into where 2077 is coming from which is sad cause this world has a very interesting alternate history and world already built.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

Yeah, kind of the thread has run away into our Number One Favourite Topic: Gameplay.

Greatest topic to be honest specially when the leaked news itself is focused on gameplay.

 

[walkingdarkly]

why are games either with huge empty open world or games with small but full of details and things to do in them? Why can't a huge open world be relatively empty in terms of content in its vast majority, but at the same time have concentrated areas with lots of things happening in them?

I blame Call of Duty

But it's a good question, I think the main issues are split between lazy devs, devs that didn't have the financial support they needed, corporate meddling and the limits of game engines created over the years with the, the limits of the hardware in both consoles and PCs which came from the rather long life of the 7th Generation of consoles. Though I'd say GTA5 is a step in the right direction, specially after the release of the PS4, XBox One and PC release when more little stuff was added to cities. Though I just blame Corps, it's always they're fault for something.

 

[NukeTheMoon]

No CDPR most definitely needs better management on the gameplay department because this is the biggest weakness of all their games. For the all things CDPR games do right being weak on gameplay is a major setback and really hurts their games. I felt zero passion from the gameplay department of TW3 because it was a half baked lazy mess on almost all fronts of gameplay design. This is something I dwell on a lot because its really holding them back as developer. Hiring gameplay designers that are just as passionate and skilled as their graphic designers, artists, writers, animators, etc.. would do wonders for this developer.

I understand what you're saying, if you're comparing TW3 to Dark Souls, for example.
But I don't consider the combat to have been half baked or lazy.

As a matter of fact, many things that I see it TW3 combat was better than others.
Holding "Block" and successfully blocking 100% damage instead of needing to time it for some reason like it most other games was am extremely smart move. It is stupid and unrealistic that in nearly every other game I play blocking a hit requires timing.
Kudos to TW3 just for that. The idea that I can't hold an object infront of me to block incoming objects just pisses me off every single time games do this.

Reverting from TW2's potion mechanic so that I could apply oils and potions mid-action was a good move. If anything to me was really an issue, it was trying to shoehorn a instand-access menu for four potion items. I ended up just filling them up with food so they wouldn't accidentally end up in the menu, because then I couldn't use them in the inventory screen.

Is gameplay holding them back? I don't think so. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accolades_received_by_The_Witcher_3:_Wild_Hunt

As for discussion about CP77 action, it's a big unknown, as we are the dark about which games the correlating dev's think had good third-person shooter mechanisms and which ones where bad, and why.

 

[LegateLaniusThe2nd]

I understand what you're saying, if you're comparing TW3 to Dark Souls, for example. But I don't consider the combat to have been half baked or lazy.

Gameplay in general was half baked not just combat. The leveling system, UI, controls and combat were all pretty subpar and half assed. Not every game needs to be more like Dark Souls but the Witcher series most definitely would benefit in having a combat system as good, tactical and fluid as Bloodborne. Nioh combat would fit Witcher good as well.

Is gameplay holding them back? I don't think so. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...r_3:_Wild_Hunt

Yea and TW3 was mainly praised for its narrative, good graphics and open world not combat. Same with a lot of other acclaimed games in the past. Being acclaimed doesn't mean people liked every aspect of said game.

 

[Suhiira]

I'll just continue to vehemently disagree that an RPG needs (or even should have) an FPS combat system and leave it at that.

 

[NukeTheMoon]

Gameplay in general was half baked not just combat. The leveling system, UI, controls and combat were all pretty subpar and half assed. Not every game needs to be more like Dark Souls but the Witcher series most definitely would benefit in having a combat system as good, tactical and fluid as Bloodborne. Nioh combat would fit Witcher good as well.Yea and TW3 was mainly praised for its narrative, good graphics and open world not combat. Same with a lot of other acclaimed games in the past. Being acclaimed doesn't mean people liked every aspect of said game.

I'm not saying that some aspects of combat couldn't have been improved, but honestly the combat system in itself was good, and actually better than many others I've played.
For example, every single game that requires timing to block incoming objects is a major fail in my book, that includes TW2.
Timing for parrying worked well, and the Signs (magic) didn't either dominate the battle or be useless, which is uncommon in games that feature both.
Just because something isn't the best, doesn't mean it's terrible. Let's not exaggerate.

UI was good, with lots of options you could turn off.
The only real issue was needing to keep the map up, or be forced to check the world map every 30 seconds if the HUD map was off, for way-points. I feel you should have been able to see the map by holding the selection menu (TAB by default) instead of needing to either have it on all the time or not at all.
Skyrim has TW3 beat in that regard, which is lousy because you'd think they would have seen how much more immersive it is to have minimalist HUD, but it's not a major issue.
You can easily make do without most of it.

The controls, initially, I would agree were FUBAR'd from launch. I tried "Default" movement controls and laughed my ass off that anybody thought that was a good idea. I wasn't able to run up a set of stairs with a 90 degree turn because the Default movement controls would have the momentum throw me into the wall. But CDPR did fix that eventually.

What TW3's major failing was is that enemies didn't scale, initially.
But TW3 is hardly alone in that.
Lots of games with leveling system have led to side-quests being pointless because they gave you nothing, Boarderlands in particular.
However, with the side-quests in TW3, you at least got an interesting story, some boxes to get RNG loot which could include important potion formula, and money.

The problem with TW3 leveling was pretty much instead of doing side missions to level up to do main quest missions, you pretty much did the exact opposite:
You did main quest missions to get to be high enough level to do side missions, which is ass backwards.
Ultimately I feel that leveling should have a minimum level, and then scale from up there.

Was the gameplay aspect of TW3 perfect? No, but I don't believe in letting the perfect be the enemy of the good

I feel what might motivate your strength in expressing this opinion, is CDPR not working on an enhanced edition to solve all these niggling problems.
I understand that, but it doesn't mean I'm going to use the game case as a Frisbee.

 

[NukeTheMoon]

I'll just continue to vehemently disagree that an RPG needs (or even should have) an FPS combat system and leave it at that.

I'm assuming you mean third-person combat system. And I would vehemently argue that depends on the game.

We'll see what CDPR cooks up. But I think we can all expect it to be like GTA5. If it has a FPS mode we have to wait and see.

I haven't tried GTA5 in FPS mode, its on the list, but I'm still playing TW3.
Have to finish a full play through on second hardest difficulty with scaling, before I do another play-through on the hardest difficulty with scaling. I'm on my fourth play-through of TW3, hardest difficulty setting with scaling will be my third.
I also want to do TW1/2 with having no having read through the books multiple times, so I can get some of the references I didn't understand before.

So it might be a while before I do a play-through of GTA in FPS mode. I'm assuming it'll be cool though, and if it is, I'd love to see CP77 do that.

 

[walkingdarkly]

I haven't tried GTA5 in FPS mode, its on the list, but I'm still playing TW3.
.

I have and it's quite an experience since it takes into account how your character's ragdoll handles. It doesn't act like other first person modes from other games with faux-swaying but places the games camera right in your characters head. This means you'll notice bumps when you step off a curb, bump into someone or tumble to the ground. I'd liken to something like a psuedo-VR experience. And from talking to other that play GTA5, it makes driving cars somewhat diffuculty the way Rockstar set up the camera. It does make shooting guns a whole lot easier.

 

[Sardukhar]

I have and it's quite an experience since it takes into account how your character's ragdoll handles.

I've played it..in FPS mode and in VR on my Vive. PRetttttty cool.

 

[Suhiira]

I'm assuming you mean third-person combat system. And I would vehemently argue that depends on the game.

Nope.
Many FPS gamers don't "grok" (feel free to look the term up, but it really is the correct term to use in this instance) the concept of "playing" a character vice "being" one.
And yes, some of the RPG crowd don't comprehend the idea of "being" a character vice "playing" one.
One of those irreconcilable differences in basic concept between the two genres.

The suggestion for a "set at game lunch" FPS or RPG game mode can work, but you can never have both at the same time nor can a single multi-player session support both modes at the same time.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

I'm assuming you mean third-person combat system.

There's little difference in the core experience at the end of the day, be it 1st or 3rd person shooter. At least as far as them being shoved in an RPG goes.

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

I think there should also be a option to merge 1rst and 3rd person views, just like Ghost Recon, of course it would be opitional.

 

[Suhiira]

I think there should also be a option to merge 1rst and 3rd person views, just like Ghost Recon, of course it would be opitional.

The ability to swap in-and-out of 1st and 3rd person on the fly would be useful.
One thing that REALLY bothered me about W3 was candle on, candle off, candle on, candle off, when trying to search a room.

 

[metalmaniac21]

One thing that REALLY bothered me about W3 was candle on, candle off, candle on, candle off, when trying to search a room.

At least they made a good joke out of it.

 

[Sardukhar]

The ability to swap in-and-out of 1st and 3rd person on the fly would be useful.
One thing that REALLY bothered me about W3 was candle on, candle off, candle on, candle off, when trying to search a room.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[Lisbeth_Salander]

At least they made a good joke out of it.

CDPR has been taking that whole "turn your weakenesses into streanghts" thing very seriously:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoL1NRh8JOI