Gaming on Linux [news and developments]

[Aaden]

Well, first of all, I'd like to apologize. Going with "zealot" was a bit too much. So, sorry for that one! :cheers:

But let me explain where it came from:

Firstly, it was not directed at Linux gamers or users in general. I, myself, use Linux (though not for gaming and only ocassionally aaaand it can be a bit of a pain in the ass ) but if it makes the final steps there and becomes a viable alternative not only for mostly indie gaming but most or all games get a release, who knows?
The problem I have is that in this forum we have two, maybe three people who are very dedicated to Linux and its perks - which, of course, is fine - but this small group has (or had) a habit to eagerly look for any tiny, tiny detail in a thread that allows to derail it and turn it towards Linux gaming.
A few months back, my subjective impression was that it was unbearable and it pops up everywhere - repeating the same slogans over and over again, eventually harming your cause instead of helping it. The situation got better and in this particular instance, I agree that bringing it up in relation to DRM free shops and their unique qualities was justifiable.
But claiming that Linux popping up everywhere was a sign of relevance, when it was just this tiny group of people bringing it up and, frankly, sometimes annoying me with it, made me see red. So, it wasn't even directly related to the topic, I just needed to let off some steam.

Long story, short: poor choice of words, uncalled for, I'm sorry! But I'm glad I got it out of my system.

:hatsoff:

 

[tommy5761]

I did delve into Linux in the past and to get a DX game to run on Linux was pure hell (Ubuntu 10.10) and may do so again as a dual boot when I get my new system built . I mean let`s face it in that not a whole lot of people are tech savvy . Most just want to pop in a disc install and play . Why more developers don`t use OGL is beyond me . Unless it`s because they can`t get the performance or textures they`re looking for...maybe .

I think the biggest drawback with Linux is that there are just too many versions and it`s confusing for most average users .

 

[volsung]

Well, first of all, I'd like to apologize. Going with "zealot" was a bit too much. So, sorry for that one! :cheers:

(...)

Long story, short: poor choice of words, uncalled for, I'm sorry! But I'm glad I got it out of my system.

:hatsoff:

Yeah no problem! We both said what we had to say :cheers:

I did delve into Linux in the past and to get a DX game to run on Linux was pure hell (Ubuntu 10.10) and may do so again as a dual boot when I get my new system built . I mean let`s face it in that not a whole lot of people are tech savvy . Most just want to pop in a disc install and play . Why more developers don`t use OGL is beyond me . Unless it`s because they can`t get the performance or textures they`re looking for...maybe .

I think the biggest drawback with Linux is that there are just too many versions and it`s confusing for most average users .

That is precisely the problem. Linux gamers should not have to bend over backwards trying to run games made for Windows, i.e. DirectX. If companies used standard, cross platform technologies Linux gaming would be trivial, even more so than Windows maybe given the driver and kernel modularity and file system hierarchy standards. My experience with native Linux gaming has been spectacular. Expeditions: Conquistador, for example, is distributed in a compressed tarball and translates to extract and play. Same for Shadowrun: Returns. And most Humble Bundle versions of Linux games come in native installers, i.e. install and play. If libraries are needed, the system fetches them for you automatically (this is the magic of Linux package management). Even Steam for Linux is straightforward, includes some of their own runtime libs and games run wonderfully (albeit through Steam...).

The apparent drawback of Linux being so diverse and there being so many distributions is easily addressed. Valve did it by choosing one target distribution they would support (originally Ubuntu) and then by releasing their own Linux distribution, SteamOS. SteamOS is based on Debian Stable, which means using Debian practically guarantees libraries and games for SteamOS will run well. Debian is one of the strongest, most stable and respected distributions out there, so if anything that is a good choice for gaming. It is also the preferred choice for millions of home and professional users.

Edit: one of the reasons OpenGL was displaced and DirectX is so prevalent is because Microsoft supported a big, destructive campaign enforcing the use of their in house technology. The (Direct)X-Box is a prime example of how to place your product out there by force, since it was the only console not supporting OpenGL. Even a DS had OGL support. An example of a modern, high profile game using OpenGL available for Linux is the highly anticipated Metro Last Light. There really is no excuse anymore. And for companies like CDPR, it would be easier to simply use cross platform technologies and release their games in every platform they consider relevant.

 

[Garrison72]

To be fair to Volsung, I've done the same with PC and DRM free gaming, pitching it like a seasoned politician at any chance. I had to step back because I was pissing people off and perhaps discouraging them from coming here. As to Linux. It's my hope that Valve will bring this into the mainstream through the Steambox, and then GOG will eventually follow suit. The folks at GOG have been clear on why they don't offer it now - they can't adequately support it like they can Windows. It seems they need to grow the team to do this, but I hope it happens.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Statements like those of @Sardukhar are clearly uninformed. Sure, Linux is so much for servers only, that Valve must have gone crazy and is using it to make a gaming console. And all the developers who are making games for Linux these days are probably smoking something wrong to make games for servers. And don't forget about those who use Linux for embedded and mobile systems. They must have gone really mad. Really? May be you folks should do some research before making such statements.

Another thing which often reveals total cluelessness is a claim that Linux is a tiny market. Let's clarify, we aren't talking about desktop market share (which in case of Linux is often underestimated). We are talking about gaming market which is focused on gamers. And clearly percentage of gamers is higher amongst Linux users than amongst Windows users. Numbers of sales for Linux (taken for cross platform releases) demonstrate that. Again, please do some research first before throwing strong statements based some false preconceptions.

This subject came up in the GOG thread for a good reason which was already explained. Flat pricing was their differentiating factor which is gone now and lack of Linux games on GOG makes them worse than competition choice wise, and their only benefit (100% DRM-free catalog) becomes weak since they don't offer games for DRM-free operating systems.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

About MS opening things up - so far it's hard to judge what that's all about. It doesn't yet look like opening the whole DirectX up. It's probably something along the lines of opening up XNA, which is not the same thing:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_XNA

So I doubt it can create any serious competition for OpenGL / SDL so far. Time will tell.

 

[tommy5761]

Ok first let`s not make anything personal .
Worldwide , Linux is a small market overall as compared to Windows users and to me it doesn`t matter the percentage that are gamers but hopefully the SteamBOX will change that . Plus I think that the reason that Steam is successful is that their catalog consists of over 3000 games to GOG`s 680 or so . The majority of GOG games predate 2005 and to me most of today`s gamers want newer titles that play full screen and not in DOSbox with Atari 2600 type of graphics .

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Worldwide , Linux is a small market overall as compared to Windows users and to me it doesn`t matter the percentage that are gamers.

But we are talking about gaming market, so the overall market share is irrelevant (why would some non gamer Windows user who is part of a huge majority care about a game you develop?). What's relevant for estimating potential sales are gamers who use Linux (or any other OS for that matter). Humble Bundle numbers show that percentage of Linux sales is pretty high.

 

[volsung]

Ok first let`s not make anything personal .
Worldwide , Linux is a small market overall as compared to Windows users and to me it doesn`t matter the percentage that are gamers but hopefully the SteamBOX will change that . Plus I think that the reason that Steam is successful is that their catalog consists of over 3000 games to GOG`s 680 or so . The majority of GOG games predate 2005 and to me most of today`s gamers want newer titles that play full screen and not in DOSbox with Atari 2600 type of graphics .

Ironically old games are easy to cater to Linux users, since most of them rely on DOS Box or other third party technologies anyway. All they need to do is repackage them in Linux friendly formats, instead of their Windows installer. I can run, for instance, Betrayal at Krondor with native DOS Box for Linux using GOG's provided configuration file (which by the way had errors I had to fix ). Many newer indie games, which comprise a big chunk of their non classic catalogue, are available natively for Linux, for example Machinarium, Expeditions: Conquistador and Shadowrun Returns. They could easily provide the native Linux binaries. I think GOG's system and game library is very interesting to Linux gamers, but so far they haven't bothered with it.

 

[Sardukhar]

Aagggh! Sniped from the dark!

<Topples over, clutching abdomen. Flails dramatically. Kicks heels.> Ack! Spppttt.

 

[Aver]

Humble Bundle numbers show that percentage of Linux sales is pretty high.

I wouldn't call them high. They are ok, but not high.

 

[vivaxardas2015]

But we are talking about gaming market, so the overall market share is irrelevant (why would some non gamer Windows user which is part of a huge majority care about a game you develop?). What's relevant for estimating potential sales are gamers who use Linux (or any other OS for that matter). Humble Bundle numbers show that percentage of Linux sales is pretty high.

You know, I am pretty sure CDPR and GOG know way better that any of us what they are doing, know their finances, know how much it costs and would cost, and how financially viable it is. If they do not offer games on Linux, they have good financial reasons for this, and no amount of activism would change it. It actually sounds rather funny - as if they are morons, and do not see where real profits lie, but it is coming from someone who has no personal stake in GOG and CDPR, and probably just read a lot of stuff but never actually worked for a developer. May be I am wrong, and you actually know what you are talking about from your personal experience. But if not, well, it is not a good sense to rely on hunches of amateurs espessialy when they won't get hit financially.

Reminds me of a friend of mine who graduated from Law School with a small mound of debt, and now refuses to take cases pro bono, even if they are for a good cause. He is very sympathetic, sure, but he has a crap-load of bills to pay. If it is not financially viable, it is charity, and not everyone in a position to waste time on it.

I guess with two major games CDPR also may not have funds to piss away on experiments with Linux.

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

Just to clarify if anyone didn't really grasp the numbers issue. Tossing around global market share for estimating games sales is not proper. It assumes that percentage of gamers who use each OS is equal, while that's not the case in reality.

I.e. let's say you claim that global market share of Linux is 2%. So you say - expect your cross platform game to provide just 2% of sales for Linux version (and 98% will be sales for the Windows version, for the sake of example let's ignore OS X for now). So, let's assume total desktop users is million people (for the sake of example). According to your first assumption, that would mean that 980,000 will be Windows users, and 20,000 will be Linux users who can buy your game.

However let's say amongst Windows users number of gamers is around 10%, while amongst Linux users percentage of gamers is 90%. You'll go and adjust your original numbers. Out of 980,000 Windows users only 98,000 can potentially buy your game. While out out 20,000 Linux users - 18,000. That's clearly a very different proportion. Potential Linux sales here make around 15.5%. Not at all 2% you would assume.

I brought this to show that using global market share without a context of the market is not proper.

While it's hard to estimate exactly percentage of gamers amongst users of each OS, it's wrong to assume they are all equal. HB sales numbers demonstrate this issue pretty well.

 

[tommy5761]

Aagggh! Sniped from the dark!

<Topples over, clutching abdomen. Flails dramatically. Kicks heels.> Ack! Spppttt.

"drama quee I mean king" . Ok fellas he`s down ...do we kick him off the cliff or let him suffer ?

I don`t know maybe GOG doesn`t have enough programmers for the Linux market or they feel that it`s not worth the time and effort spent . What I mean by this is return on investment .

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

@new&improved_vivaxardas: Answers given by Marcin Iwinski make one strongly doubt if CDPR (or he in particular) has any clue about Linux development or viability. Unless those arguments aren't meant to be taken at face value. In practice however CDPR seem interested in Linux development more than you realize - their developers attended Steam days conference which was about Linux games development for the most part.

@Tommy: I'm not sure if GOG is lacking programmers, at least they aren't working on games porting, unlike Humble Bundle who do that. But it's a company, not some amateurs, they can hire people if they need to.

 

[tommy5761]

@ [MENTION=94]Tommy: I'm not sure if GOG is lacking programmers, at least they aren't working on games porting, unlike Humble Bundle who do that. But it's a company, not some amateurs, they can hire people if they need to.

That`s what I meant by would they reap the rewards or show profit for their investment .

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

@Tommy: I'm not sure if they are driven by concerns of profit here. Not according to their reps at least (TeT from GOG). According to TeT their problems were technical, not financial. Again, should we believe them and take their words at face value or we need to assume they say one thing and mean another?

 

[vivaxardas2015]

@Tommy: I'm not sure if they are driven by concerns of profit here. Not according to their reps at least (TeT from GOG). According to TeT their problems were technical, not financial. Again, should we believe them and take their words at face value or we need to assume they say one thing and mean another?

Aren't they, essentially, the same problems? All technical problems are solvable with enough money - upgrading equipment, hiring people with necessary skills, and such.

 

[tommy5761]

I don`t know but from my perspective I try to take things at face value until i`m given reason not to .

 

[Gilrond-i-Virdan]

@new&improved_vivaxardas: No, it's not the same. Financial problem means they can provide a solution, but the end result is not useful, because it gives no profit. Technical problem means they have no methods to provide a solution yet. They said they are working on finding one. The weird thing about it is that they are working on it since 2012. I don't believe it takes that long to solve the issue of long term support (which according to TeT is their primary technical barrier for enabling Linux games on GOG).