Gaunter O'Dim = better antagonist than Wild Hunt

[Percival_Dickenbutts]

Well if anything, after learning more about Olgierd, heart of stone or not, I found his actions to be as despicable if not more than Gaunter O'Dim. While he's lost the ability to feel emotions (similar to witchers), he still has the ability to think rationally and he's made some really evil decisions. I really wanted to kill him so I was really hoping even if you decide to save Olgierd, he will show his dark side and try to kill Geralt, leading to a final showdown

I would just like to point out, as I have seen a surprising amount of people make the same mistake. The thing about Witchers being stripped of their emotions is pure poppycock, drivel, shite and eight other varieties of nonsense. It is hate-propaganda spread by those who hate witchers.

Geralt and the other witchers don't bother pointing it out because most people wouldn't believe them, and in fact it sometimes works in their favour.

The closest it comes to being true is that because witchers go through a ton of harrowing experiences and witness the lowest depths of depravity in humans on a daily basis, as well as being hated pretty much anywhere they go, they become quite hardened and cynical over time.
Their emotional capacity as humans however, is entirely intact. This should be obvious from the emotions Geralt goes through in the books and games.

On topic though: Yes, Gaunter O'Dimm was an excellent villain. I guessed he was in fact THE Devil as soon as he told me to meet him at a crossroads.

 

[whitewoof]

I would just like to point out, as I have seen a surprising amount of people make the same mistake. The thing about Witchers being stripped of their emotions is pure poppycock, drivel, shite and eight other varieties of nonsense. It is hate-propaganda spread by those who hate witchers.

Geralt and the other witchers don't bother pointing it out because most people wouldn't believe them, and in fact it sometimes works in their favour.

I kinda got that from reading the first five books (especially regarding Geralt), but haven't reached the part where such myth was actually busted (like Regis on vampires).

Anyways, have you guys seen the rewards O'Dimm provides if you give him Olgierd? (Super Spoilers)

Spoiler

I saw a video of a playthrough which completed HoS prior to finishing the main game (like way way before). When O'Dimm asks Geralt what reward he wants, there's an option to find Ciri, in which O'Dimm says there are even things he can't help with (instead pretty much gives Geralt a walkthrough of how to get the best ending for the game). So what exactly does that mean, that O'Dimm can't help finding Ciri? Since we're on topic of Wild Hunt vs O'Dimm, does that mean the Wild Hunt's magic is stronger if not equal to O'Dimm's? The Isle of Mists is invisible even to an entity like O'Dimm? or that Ciri is more powerful than O'Dimm?

 

[mecha_fish]

I think some of this can be answered in Avallac'h's lab with the 200 years of tracking and experimenting of the Laura Doren gene. If I remember correctly from various conversations Avallac'h was working with the Hunt until Ciri and even a little later .

I don't understand how Avallac'h is related. He worked at Tir Na Lia until Eredin murdered the king's ass (in the game's canon - in the books, it's got room for him to be innocent) and I don't think the two ever really worked together. Avallac'h was at the castle while Eredin went around with the Red Riders and presumably annoyed people in other realities, stealing kids. Which of my questions are answered by Avallac'h's science? How is his work on the Lara Dorren gene related to Eredin's insanity as the King of the Wild Hunt stalking young Ciri and eventually developing into boring witless hack in the Witcher 3 Wild Hunt? His actions in the books as Ciri's childhood stalker aren't developed upon and his ingenuity in luring Ciri by stealing Geralt and Yennefer doesn't reoccur. Avallac'h lab explains nothing of Eredin's character development.

And yes, I agree, Eredin and O'Dimm are structurally different villains and one appeals to terror and awe more easily than the other by nature of the narrative. However, I think, despite this, Eredin could be depicted as more interesting at the very least by addressing what I mentioned in the walls of text I posted above.

Anyways, have you guys seen the rewards O'Dimm provides if you give him Olgierd? (Super Spoilers)

Spoiler

Yeah, I saw. I wonder what he says if you've already found Ciri and are preparing for the Battle of Kaer Morhen or just after that? I mean, he still gives you the walk through, I imagine. I think the answer to that is whatever or whereever the Isle of Mist is, whatever Ciri is, is beyond Gaunter O'Dimm. To me, this means he isn't exactly the Devil, since I don't think there are strictly Gods or Devils in the witcher worlds, and that he is limited. This makes it more realistic/reasonable for Geralt to be able to defeat him, imo.

Also it's a pity that I finished the main game before doing this expansion. Imagine having that ending and that gift if you didn't know anything about the third act of the main game?

 

[dmcaldw]

I don't understand how Avallac'h is related. He worked at Tir Na Lia until Eredin murdered the king's ass (in the game's canon - in the books, it's got room for him to be innocent) and I don't think the two ever really worked together. Avallac'h was at the castle while Eredin went around with the Red Riders and presumably annoyed people in other realities, stealing kids. Which of my questions are answered by Avallac'h's science? How is his work on the Lara Dorren gene related to Eredin's insanity as the King of the Wild Hunt stalking young Ciri and eventually developing into boring witless hack in the Witcher 3 Wild Hunt? His actions in the books as Ciri's childhood stalker aren't developed upon and his ingenuity in luring Ciri by stealing Geralt and Yennefer doesn't reoccur. Avallac'h lab explains nothing of Eredin's character development.

And yes, I agree, Eredin and O'Dimm are structurally different villains and one appeals to terror and awe more easily than the other by nature of the narrative. However, I think, despite this, Eredin could be depicted as more interesting at the very least by addressing what I mentioned in the walls of text I posted above.

Back on topic the Guanter O"dim story line was personal and more like Witcher2 with someone holding something over his head and trying to get it cleared .while Wild Hunt was personal but it wasn't directed at Geralt as much . I also think this is why HoS feels so much better .

Spoiler

Yeah, I saw. I wonder what he says if you've already found Ciri and are preparing for the Battle of Kaer Morhen or just after that? I mean, he still gives you the walk through, I imagine. I think the answer to that is whatever or whereever the Isle of Mist is, whatever Ciri is, is beyond Gaunter O'Dimm. To me, this means he isn't exactly the Devil, since I don't think there are strictly Gods or Devils in the witcher worlds, and that he is limited. This makes it more realistic/reasonable for Geralt to be able to defeat him, imo.

Also it's a pity that I finished the main game before doing this expansion. Imagine having that ending and that gift if you didn't know anything about the third act of the main game?

It wasn't the science I was referring to so much as the time frame of the science Avallac'h maybe innocent but his research was not completely private I think it was Gaels that put the jab at Avallc'h about his model for the painting was Laura Dorren like . I also imagine that what was Avallac'h's pupils name wasn't just doing sage stuff . Eredin turning Avallac'h to Uma also could have been more than humiliation but punishment for not helping any more as well . I know I am stretching but the research may have been more public that would then give The Wild Hunt to chase down leads as to the gene or magic related to it . I imagine Eredin killing the king was the break that Avallac'h needed to separate himself from the madness and decide in thee end to protect Ciri . I don't have the canon of the books to go on but with info in game it involves a lot of conjecture . As high profile as they make Avallac'h to seem he may very well be innocent just his connections betray him and they feed them to Eredin . In the end Eredin is a witless hack who through what ever channels was chasing shadows related to the gene/magic . I do wish there was more . If Eredin was a general then it would stand to reason his insanity would drive him to usurp the throne to gain absolute control . The end of the planet was what was suppose to be driving the Red Riders to find another or find means to get to another from what I understand just Eredin became obsessed on Ciri and why would be the question and some the answers lead back to Avallac'h or any other that knew what was being researched . Just 200 hundred years would give an acceptable time line to establish the Wild Hunts legend which isn't just one villages legend .

 

[BoboTheMighty]

Seriously, after O'Dimm they NEED to add some more Wild Hunt content( in hopefully third expansion). It almost feels comical after this kind of villain, to finish the game with "Master of Fifteen lines of dialogue-Eredin".
Was anyone reminded of Al Pacino from Devil's Advocate? Damn, he played that role.

 

[mecha_fish]

I don't have the canon of the books to go on but with info in game it involves a lot of conjecture .

This is probably why you're missing a chunk of stuff on Eredin and speculating based on the limited and weirdly delivered information. What I'm saying -- Eredin made sense and had potential as a villain in a video game in the books. Even in the Witcher and the Witcher 2 he had that potential. All goes flunk in the Witcher 3 because all of his charisma, wiles, schemes and pure cruelty is not there. That's it. Your speculation about Avallac'h isn't really relevant to Eredin's behaviour.

Spoiler

Avallac'h was in love with Lara Dorren. Cirilla was the spitting image of her. Avallac'h has all kinds of weird feelings. Also that woman in the lab was definietly a sexual companion. Avallac'h's job in the books was to get Cirilla to have sex with King Auberon so that they may rule the universe using her offspring. Avallac'h was very much a fan of the old order that Auberon had going on. Eredin killed the king (according to the game's canon) so he inspire change or something to that effect -- he wasn't insane when he did that. He was just a nasty piece of work.

Avallac'h wasn't really a fan of Eredin from the get go, to my memory. Eredin also had Ciri's favour for a short while and I suspect what ultimately would have happened had he captured her would have resulted in tremendous rape and torture as they use her for experiments or something related to Lara Dorren's gene. Get no vibe of that from the game. Just 'STEAL YOUR DAUGHTER BIATCH' -- no mention of what fate Ciri could have had with Eredin.

Avallac'h's actions don't add anything to Eredin, they add only to Avallac'h. Eredin needs more development, that's all.

 

[Auralius]

I'm going to take it a step further: HoS > Vanilla TW3 experience. I mean, a Witcher's job is basically unraveling occult phenomena and what was in the vanilla was fairly shallow compared to this.

 

[RobOtKen]

Agreed! Fantastic villain. I believe he was Lucifer, the game did not out right say it but it is heavily implied that he is indeed Satan.

Given that the game makes various references to slavic gods and mythology (Svarog, Triglav, Veles, Leshey aka Leshen, etc.) I doubt that CDPR would include "Lucifer", a figure from Hebrew biblical mythology. Gaunter O'Dimm is likely inspired by one of the slavic trickster demons, not the "Satan" from Christian folklore.

 

[CTPhipps]

Given that the game makes various references to slavic gods and mythology (Svarog, Triglav, Veles, Leshey aka Leshen, etc.) I doubt that CDPR would include "Lucifer", a figure from Hebrew biblical mythology. Gaunter O'Dimm is likely inspired by one of the slavic trickster demons, not the "Satan" from Christian folklore.

O'Dim's name is a reference to Walter O'Dim from Stephen King's "Dark Tower" series. So they're not afraid of taking things from sources other than Pre-Christian Slavic Folklore (which most of the stuff the Witcher takes from didn't exist during).

He's not the Christian Devil but he's certainly inspired by Slavic Christian folklore, the same which provides us with succubi and incubi. I doubt he's the actual Devil-Devil but he incorporates the iconography and themes of such a figure and why not?

And yes, O'Dim totally blows Eredin out of the water.

So does Olgierd.

They're BOTH better villains than Eredin.

 

[piotrhardy84]

Olgierd and O'Dim are taken out straight from a Polish legend from the 17th century and a poem, a book and probably some folklore from the 19th century. Olgierd is based on Jan Twardowski, a real character, an alchemist and wizard who, according to legend, made a deal with the devil. He was granted the power to summon queen Barbara back from the dead for the mourning king Sigismund August (which, as far as we can tell, seems to be a real story and may be the most famous scam in Polish history) and show her to him in a magical mirror. But in return the Devil would get the wizard's soul.
There was one condition in the contract, however. The Devil could only collect if they met in Rome. Obviously, Twardowski wasn't about to go anywhere near Rome, but the Devil built an Inn, which he named "ROMA" and lured Twardowski to it. According to different versions, Twardowski either tricked his way out of the peril or was taken by the devils to the moon. In another version, Twardowski flew to the moon on a rooster. Sounds familiar?

So, if you ask me, O'Dim was a powerful demon, the closest equivalent to Judeo-Christian devil. Also, the motive of the Devil, who tricks people into wishing the wrong things or interprets the wishes in his own manner, is very popular in Polish folklore. This is probably coincidence but the Devil is usually German in the said folklore and O'Dim's first name is a variation of a German name "Gunther" (no offence, Germans).

 

[xzxxsicko]

First time playing HoS i alweys was scared but looked forward seeing more O'Dim , loved him. Eredin also was cool and i haven't read books but why did Eredin sayed Avalanche tricked us both ? was that final attempt to screw Geralt ? Because till the very end i didn't trust Avalanch, and there is a cutscene where he helps Ciri but hes moovements kinda direct that he betreys he's own.
Also only rant about O'Dim is that hes rewards sucked for someone that , could award you greatly.

 

[LegioXII]

what makes o'dimm a superior villain, for me anyway, is that he can be likable when he wants to be. at the start something is so obviously wrong with how he helps you but he entices you to go along with it anyway because he is all polite and tricks you into thinking you can actually say no to him

as for his rewards i dont blame him for not granting me immortality or something since he probably isnt able to get my soul (even though i think the contract is still open just because of the way he worded the verbal contract)

 

[FarrySquall]

Don't know if it off topic, but just found out those 4 kid sing a song base on GOD's whistle

Spoiler

 

[Toyen]

He was a positive character. I sided with him : ) Olgierd was the culprit here.

 

[Triss.Hasengold]

Comparing O`Dimm with the cute little Elves of the Wild Hunt wearing big fat costumes..... it is already clear who will win
I must admit I have never cared about the Wild Hunt anymore as soon as I found out that they are not some creepy supernatural entity or skeleton knights hunting souls or whatever but cute Elves but I enjoyed the sidequests so much more.

I would just like to point out, as I have seen a surprising amount of people make the same mistake. The thing about Witchers being stripped of their emotions is pure poppycock, drivel, shite and eight other varieties of nonsense. It is hate-propaganda spread by those who hate witchers.
Geralt and the other witchers don't bother pointing it out because most people wouldn't believe them, and in fact it sometimes works in their favour.
The closest it comes to being true is that because witchers go through a ton of harrowing experiences and witness the lowest depths of depravity in humans on a daily basis, as well as being hated pretty much anywhere they go, they become quite hardened and cynical over time.
Their emotional capacity as humans however, is entirely intact. This should be obvious from the emotions Geralt goes through in the books and games.

When you gaze into the Abyss, the Abyss gaze back into you.

Isn`t it a little bit strange that Witchers just get a little cynical when facing a life with eternal violence and wandering around and nowhere at home, being hated and hunted away everywhere they go, every single village idiot having serious problems with one all the time (except the jokels who want to get some monster driven of their fields), forever poverty, being hated and seeing only cruelty and violence and being forced to fight and risk the life for income.
Every normal person would commit suicide, therefore I assume that Witchers are really stripped of their emotions otherwise they would also not beeing able to cope with the fear of the creatures and horror monsters they have to fight.
Even all the Veterans of the Iraq war have severe post traumatic stress symptoms but not Witchers, never - they just keep on fighting and doing their stuff no matter what happens without any PTS and not even having nightmares, and they don´t feel any fear at all when facing the most frightening monsters.
Fear is the most primal emotion and survival instinct, and I think at least Witchers are stripped of fear (which means no traumas and never stress no matter how stressful the situation is and no adrenaline shocks and never any feeling of intense life-threatening fear) and they are clearly stripped of the ability to feel strong pain, and other emotions at least partially intact.
Otherwise they just could not function as the beings they are.

This is probably coincidence but the Devil is usually German in the said folklore and O'Dim's first name is a variation of a German name "Gunther" (no offence, Germans).

That`s cool so I can talk to him in German when offering my soul for endless walk-in dressers with all the gothic stuff one cat can get from London Fashion and endless beauty??? Miss Universe Beauty of course, everything else would be not enough. And because of no language barriere well in this case we can make an even better contract and maybe I will get some other stuff too! Have you ever heard of this Lamborghini Egoista (way better for driving shopping than the Reventon!) and some Achal-Tekkiner gold horses for the weekends?
All that and so much more just for my soul.
I don`t even have one
I love Gaunter O´Dimm....
Yes Gaunter O´Dimm was the best antagonist ever. Of course he is not really an "Antagonist" but more a business partner. Geralt can get a stylish zombie horse when fullfilling his contracts, not as good as a night-lighting Unicorn or an Achal-Tekkiner but unique.
The whole DLC I was wondering what happens when Geralt will lose the highly interesting mind games with O`Dimm, and what he will get when he wins.

 

[LowlifeSinger31]

Do you think the Master Mirror was a setup for the future of the series ?

I never play the first Witcher but I watch a lot of playtroughs,analysis and Spoiler on The Wiki before buy 3,and I noted that the ending of Hearts of Stone was a homenage for the first game,in the ending we will have the opition to give Alvin's soul to Eredin or refuse and fight him stead.

before someone say that we will have no Witcher 4, remember that was CD project opinion before the huge sucess of 3.

The series will have Original villains again, since 3 was a huge fan service for the books,Master Mirror was perfect,he is original but drink for the same mythical fountain as the books,hearts of stone can fit easy as one of the Two first books short stories...

what do you think about that ?

 

[Sunsibar]

As much as I'd like to see Witcher 4, I hope that CDPR sticks to that 3 games only. What a better way to stop than top?

If there, for some reason, is going to be Witcher 4, I will buy it There is so much more to get from those books, so "material" is not the problem. I'm just afraid that this great series comes crashing down, if it keeps continuing too long That has happened to so many series before...

 

[StormKorp]

Kudos to CDPR on him, I felt symphatetic towards the Devil and this you can achieve only with great writing! I sincerely asked to myself if I wanted to side with him and I probably would have done it if he offered me the Venomous Silver Sword as reward.

I don't like Olgierd that much but siding with him had the best rewards so I had to complete my Viper set.

 

[Maltovich_11]

You can't be a better Villain than Goethe's Devil or Bulgakov's Voland. I don't know how CDPR are going to beat this charisma.

 

[Lytha]

It's my second time in HoS, and I am still scared of Gaunter O Dim. He really is an awesome antagonist.


Did you know that if you decide to not go to the meeting point at midnight (after escape from the ship), but instead straight to Olgierd, Gaunter will know about it?