GDDR5 vs GDDR3

[pris2013]

GDDR5 vs GDDR3

Since you guys here seem to be PC experts i thought i would ask you some technical stuff.

one is will GDDR5 make a big difference in gaming visual wise or in any other way?

the PS4 has a unified pool of 8GB GDDR5 RAM and Xbox720 has unified 8GB GDDR3 RAM + 32MB ESRAM (can run in parallel)

any difference really?

 

[dragonbird]

It's a factor, definitely, but, like the tflops figure, it's not a definitive indicator on how well the console will be able to handle games. A GT630 has GDDR5, but it's still not a gaming-class graphics card, it's designed for multimedia.

But if the rumours about the Xbox are true (and they seem to be), then the fact that it's NOT using GDDR5 raises questions.

The ESRAM doesn't really seem to be significant in any meaningful way.

 

[Garrison72]

It doesn't take an expert to know the next gen consoles will be outdated within a year of their release.

..I know it hurts you.

 

[Sardukhar]

Hmm. HMMMM.

Yes it will. Make a big difference in gaming potential. At least, compared to current VRAM in consoles. That's as much because of the amount of VRAM as the speed. Compared to GDDR3...that depends.

Here's how it works: your system - console, PC, smartphone, whatever - is only as fast as it's slowest component. This is called the bottleneck. If the speed of your VRAM isn't slowing down the rest of your GPU - Graphics Processing Unit - then we move to the next possible bottleneck: transfer rates from the board to the mainboard. EVEN if you had the fastest VRAM and GPU and a stupid huge amount of VRAM to boot, you would still have to wait for system components like your CPU and RAM to catch up.

In other words, you will have to wait and see how the system performs in real-world benchmarks before you can brag to your friends about how your team did this season.

I am woefully uneducated on the current spec for RAM or VRAM, ( GDDR is Video Ram - VRAM) . OFF TO TOM'S HARDWARE. ( Some of you may prefer Anandtech or HardOCP. Whatever).

 

[dragonbird]

It doesn't take an expert to know the next gen consoles will be outdated within a year of their release.

..I know it hurts you.

Well, there's a lot of potential hurt coming up - how they're going to handle back-catalogues, used-game policies, how long they expect people to wait before they upgrade again, and the actual benchmark performances, which we haven't seen yet.

Still too early to speculate.

Hmm. HMMMM.

Yes it will. Make a big difference in gaming potential. At least, compared to current VRAM in consoles. That's as much because of the amount of VRAM as the speed. Compared to GDDR3...that depends.

Here's how it works: your system - console, PC, smartphone, whatever - is only as fast as it's slowest component. This is called the bottleneck. If the speed of your VRAM isn't slowing down the rest of your GPU - Graphics Processing Unit - then we move to the next possible bottleneck: transfer rates from the board to the mainboard. EVEN if you had the fastest VRAM and GPU and a stupid huge amount of VRAM to boot, you would still have to wait for system components like your CPU and RAM to catch up.

In other words, you will have to wait and see how the system performs in real-world benchmarks before you can brag to your friends about how your team did this season.

I am woefully uneducated on the current spec for RAM or VRAM, ( GDDR is Video Ram - VRAM) . OFF TO TOM'S HARDWARE. ( Some of you may prefer Anandtech or HardOCP. Whatever).

I'll save you the time. Yes, there's a lot of predictions that the RAM will be the bottleneck on Xbox. But it's still going to have to wait until they can actually start to benchmark.

 

[onosendai7]

In complement to Sard : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GDDR5 for technical presentation of DDR5

 

[Sardukhar]

I'll save you the time.

Hey! I'm trying to EDUCATE here!

 

[pris2013]

ill just put the specs for both systems here and let you guys take a look and maybe give your thoughts:

PS4:

Central Processing Unit:
Orbis contains eight Jaguar cores at 1.6GHz, arranged as two "clusters"
Each cluster contains 4 cores and a shared 2MB L2 cache
256-bit SIMD operations, 128-bit SIMD ALU
SSE up to SSE4, as well as Advanced Vector Extensions (AVX)
One hardware thread per core
Decodes, executes and retires at up to two intructions/cycle
Out of order execution
Per-core dedicated L1-I and L1-D cache (32Kb each)
Two pipes per core yield 12,8 GFlops performance
102.4 GFlops for system

Graphics Core:
GPU is based on AMD's "R10XX" (Southern Islands) architecture
DirectX 11.1+ feature set
18 Compute Units (CUs)
Hardware balanced at 14 CUs (4 dedicated to Compute)
Shared 512KB of read/write L2 cache
800MHz
1.843 Tflops, 922 GigaOps/s
Dual shader engines
18 texture units
8 render backends
32 ROPs

Memory:
8GB unified system memory, 176GB/s
7.5GB available to games (estimate)

Storage:
High speed Blu-ray drive (single-layer 25GB or dual-layer 50GB discs)
Partial constant angular velocity (PCAV)
Outer half of disc 6x (27 MB/s)
Inner half varies, 3.3x to 6x

Extra Hardware:
Audio Processor (ACP)
Video encode and decode (VCE/UVD) units
Display ScanOut Engine (DCE)
Zlib Decompression Hardware


Xbox720:

Central Processing Unit:
x64 Architecture
Eight CPU cores running at 1.6GHz
Each CPU thread has its own 32KB L1 instruction cache and 32 KB L1 data cache
Each module of four CPU cores has a 2MB L2 cache resulting in a total of 4MB of L2 cache
Each core has one fully independent hardware thread with no shared execution resources
Each hardware thread can issue two instructions per clock

Graphics Core:
Custom D3D11.1 class 800-MHz graphics processor
12 shader cores providing a total of 768 threads
Each thread can perform one scalar multiplication and addition operation (MADD) per clock cycle
At peak performance, the GPU can effectively issue 1.2 trillion floating-point operations per second
High-fidelity Natural User Interface (NUI) sensor is always present

Storage and Memory:
8GB of DDR3 RAM (68GB/s bandwidth)
32MB of fast embedded SRAM (ESRAM) (102GB/s)
From the GPU's perspective the bandwidths of system memory and ESRAM are parallel providing combined peak bandwidth of 170GB/sec.
Hard drive is always present
50GB 6x Blu-ray drive

Hardware Accelerators:
Move engines
Image, video, and audio codecs
Kinect multichannel echo cancellation (MEC) hardware
Cryptography engines for encryption and decryption, and hashing

xxxxxxxxx

xbox has 2x the CPU but PS4 has 50% better GPU ?

 

[Sardukhar]

Whoah. This is important to you, to maybe pick a console to buy?

Ahh....okay, see, this is what makes it so tough to compare.

"Each thread can perform one scalar multiplication and addition operation (MADD) per clock cycle
At peak performance, the GPU can effectively issue 1.2 trillion floating-point operations per second"

vs

"Hardware balanced at 14 CUs (4 dedicated to Compute)
Shared 512KB of read/write L2 cache
800MHz
1.843 Tflops, 922 GigaOps/s"

See, you can try to find a common denominator - perhaps the Tflops, for example.

But really, they throw so many terms and measurements at you while they conceal whatever the weaknesses of their design are, it's very hard to say.

The CPU figures - cores and threads per core - seem identical but again, issue like Instruction Sets and priority processing make a difference.

I recommend finding a good site with some serious hardware guys - avoid fanboy sites like the plague - and read what the pros think. Their speculation will still be limited, but they can find some commonality if anyone can.

 

[Garrison72]

Guynwah is our tech expert, let him analyze. All I can say is console tech is fixed for years to come and PC is constantly improving. There's no reason to get fussy over console tech. It's outdated at release. Just the way it is.

 

[dragonbird]

Hey! I'm trying to EDUCATE here!

In that case, a specific link
http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/295963-33-ddr3-ddr5 (GDDR3 vs GDDR5, from 2010)

@Pris2013 - Yes, on paper, the PS4 seems to be a higher-spec gaming console, but it'll still be speculation without the final/official specs from MS and the actual benchmarks.

And yes, there's also reason to be concerned about built-in obsolescence, especially on the Xbox specs. It's the inherent difference between consoles and PC's - price and a "static" spec vs performance and upgradeability. The use of DDR3 reads as though MS have picked price as the most important factor, but we won't KNOW this as a fact until we see those benchmarks.

I recommend finding a good site with some serious hardware guys - avoid fanboy sites like the plague - and read what the pros think. Their speculation will still be limited, but they can find some commonality if anyone can.

Definitely this. And, if you are looking at purchase decisions, try to hold off until the benchmarks start to come out.

 

[pris2013]

Rumored Xbox720 Specs [AMAZING]

So long ago there were rumors that MS would release 2 systems. 1 casual to compete with the Wii that has lower specs and one Hardcore for hardcore gamers with higher specs.
Sources say that the VG leaks for the Durango/Xbox720 were for the casual box and not the hardcore box. (Durango is the codeword for the xbox720).

Here are the specs for the Hardcore version:

Xbox 720 Tech Specs
Three SOCs in one console. Two "Venus" models, and one "Mars".
8GB RAM, with 1GB devoted to operating system.

Mars SOC - System SOC
GPU AMD 8850 spec GPU clocked at 600mhz
4 core CPU is clocked @ 1.8GHz. It is an x86 system.
Audio DSP

2 of Venus SOC - Application SOC
GPU AMD 8900 spec GPU clocked at 800mhz with 10000HD series future tech
4 core CPU is clocked @ 2.5GHz
1.5 Gb of GDDR5 ram on each SOC (total 3GB) clocked @ 1.2Ghz

Common factors
4GB of DDR4 RAM with 384 bit bus
Ray tracing chip
High speed blitter with 510 GB/s bandwidth between SOCs
EDRAM
Power brick is 300 watts, but SDKs are looking at 230 watts used.
Capable of 4.2TFlops of data.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

so what do you guys think? i like the names for the SoCs (System on Chip) Mars and Venus =)
im not sure what SDK stands for is that spec dev kit?
Anyways sources say that is far superior in its design than PS4 and that its blitter system is very unique and that MS spend a lot more in R&D than Sony. and that its chips are using tech not even used in PC GPUs yet. And people say this is the reason why Sony upped their RAM to 8GB which is overkill since their Killzone tech demo only used 1.5gigs just so they can compete with the superior Xbox 720.

So what do you guys think?

 

[dragonbird]

So what do you guys think?

I think that this appears to be an extension of yesterday's discussion - threads merged.
And that it's still simply an invitation to speculate based on vague rumours. "Sources say?" "People say?"

 

[pris2013]

I think that this appears to be an extension of yesterday's discussion - threads merged.
And that it's still simply an invitation to speculate based on vague rumours. "Sources say?" "People say?"

i could add sources but its from a crazy russian guy with really bad english. however he was dead on with the ps4 8 core model and that sony had jumped to 8gigs he revealed that in mid january.

 

[dragonbird]

i could add sources but its from a crazy russian guy with really bad english. however he was dead on with the ps4 8 core model and that sony had jumped to 8gigs he revealed that in mid january.

It's OK, I don't think *you* need to add sources, as these specs have been running rampant over gaming sites for a while, they just got dragged up again after the PS4 announcement.

They COULD be true, but then again, they COULD be total BS.

 

[pris2013]

It's OK, I don't think *you* need to add sources, as these specs have been running rampant over gaming sites for a while, they just got dragged up again after the PS4 announcement.

They COULD be true, but then again, they COULD be total BS.

the fact that sony jumped to 8gig which is way overkill tell me that the xbox720 hardcore version scared the hell out of them. hopefully its true.

 

[Sardukhar]

Ah, I doubt it scared anyone. These guys make billions regardless - fear isn't what they feel. Maaaybe a vague apprehension about losing a few mil off their yearly bonus. Maybe. Again, not a sports team - money making corporation that sees you as prey.

We should start an informal betting pool to see which of the two brands pulls ahead in actual performance with the same piece of software running.

I hope it's the PS4 because I'm going to buy one. Unless MS reaaaaally makes me feel safer about their products dying on me. 4th Xbox 360, ugh.

 

[pris2013]

so 3 soc console what do you guys say about it?

 

[onosendai7]

so 3 soc console what do you guys say about it?

No opinion.
Console is not an interesting piece of hardware...

 

[pris2013]

rumormill ms is dumping esram and getting this: