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Geralt´s VATS system

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tommy5761

tommy5761

Mentor
#41
Jan 20, 2014
ApolloZen said:
Well that wouldn't help in combat and limit you to one usage. After combat, meditation could be how you "reset" toxicity sure.

But I think the 0->100->25->100->50->100->75->100->100(No more potions until you meditate out of combat after this point) while in combat is better.
Click to expand...
I didn`t mean just one potion . Different potions should have different toxicity levels but I agree that once you reach a certain level of toxicity then no more or Geralt dies .

I`m only saying that Blizzard could have a certain benefit when it comes to slowing down time to target the enemies vulnerable spots . It would perceived as slowing time but more like increasing Geralt`s reaction time .
 
Garrison72

Garrison72

Mentor
#42
Jan 20, 2014
They could tie it to vigor, that would prevent any spamming. I like the idea of using it as a counter. Maybe if we initiate the effect, then it uses more vigor but causes less damage. If we use it in a counter, which requires precise timing, then we use less vigor and cause more damage. At any rate, the targeting system is the crux of this issue. I really need to see how CDPR is going to let us target specific areas on an enemy with a system that utilizes random animations and a panned out camera.
 
A

archont

Forum regular
#43
Jan 20, 2014
ApolloZen said:
The interview I saw, said it worked by slowing time and allowing you to target weak points, or similarly with humans, knock the sign out of a caster by severing his arm. Then your action playing out at full speed. Sounds a lot like how MGR works. Hitman/Max Payne also have similar features it works well in all 3 games. I LOVE the idea, see someone about to cast a sign at you? Quickly slice off his arm. Adds some depth and strategy (I imagine you won't have unlimited resources for this mechanic in combat). From everything we've heard so far, it sounds an awful lot like a merging of Dead Space necromorph style killing tactics and Hitman/Max Payne/MGR, which if executed PROPERLY will make combat amazing.

It also fits with lore, Geralt's speed was never effectively communicated in TW2. When he is high as fuck on potions he is supposed to dance circles around fools, slowing time is the best way to show him doing this, without making it a button mashy hack and slash (Blizzard potions communicated it in TW1).

The ONLY worry I have is how it will be implemented resource wise.

Ideally for me it would work something like this:

- A Witcher should always go in prepared this includes pre-drinking long term effect potions (which wouldn't add to toxicity, you'd have a limited number of buff slots for these) which need to be consumed before battle as well as taking short term effect potions that can be used in combat.

- Blizzard would be one of these potions, and since most monsters (and the fact it will help in many human encounters) will need you to use this system, you will have to gather the ingredients yourself (make them somewhat rare, but respawning or something).

- In order to activate it you'd need to drink a Blizzard potion, which would MAX out your toxicity for a period, afterwords preventing the use of other short term potions (heals, quick vigor regen etc), and offer some negative effects on Geralt until the debuff went away.

- Each time you max toxicity in combat less of it will drop off(for example: first Blizzard potion you use at 0%, after the debuff goes away and you can use it again, you will now be at 25%, in this example after 3 potions you would still be at 100% toxicity even after the ending of the debuff and thus consuming any more potions would incapacitate Geralt and lead to a game over, OR alternatively, it just won't work and Geralt would have to fight the rest of the combat sequence with no potions and all the negatives of being max toxicity).

- For casters a Blizzard potion could allow multiple casts during the time frame. Alchemists may have an extra charge slot for it, or have it allow a secondary target for sword users.

- You could have talents make it have different effects/bonuses/penalties depending on offensive or defensive playstyles

- Easier difficulties could be more forgiving in the number of in combat potions you get.

This system would emphasis the preparation aspect of Witchers, while not making it grindy OR cause the combat to devolve into spamming this mode (by the fact of you can only use so many...you don't need to farm all day, because having 100000 potions won't trivialize a fight). It would also emphasis decision making and tactical choice (do I go for a limb removal now? or do I REALLY need a quick heal?...will I get another chance at removing this limb? etc), as opposed to a style of running around til the ability is ready again, and using it. All while making sure the rest of the combat mechanics (blocks, pirouettes, ripostes etc) are still incredibly important to have mastered on high difficulties, because you can't "Witcher Sense" everything in every fight. It also has a clear potential downside.

And again, the penalties would be less severe on lower difficulties, and also allow you more in combat potion usage. Which could also help difficulty scaling be less about adding health and dmg to enemies and be more about managing potion use correctly.

I HATE the idea it would be activated on a successful block and parry, cause it would promote a style of play that is passively waiting for it to proc. Similar to rolling around in TW2 using Aard until something is stunned...than one shotting it, or rolling around until you get behind something and killing it in 4 swings regardless of difficulty.
Click to expand...
Good to read another approach, you obviously went with different assumptions than I did here. It's clear that the abuse of this mechanic needs to be limited. You're suggesting short-term potions.

I don't like the idea of quaffing potions to execute supermoves. Potions provide long-term benefits, what we're talking about here is a single move lasting less than it'd take for the potion to actually enter the stomach. A massive difference in scope and you want to keep things consistent.

As such the idea of having the ability limited by reusable resources and a hard cap is pretty good, but I don't feel it plays well with existing potion mechanics. Invent a new mechanic and work around that and it may be workable.

W3 combat is supposed to build on the combat model in W2. I assume this means the tactics will remain mostly the same - kite enemies, engage on your terms, abuse mobility and poke stragglers. I understand you don't like the idea of kiting enemies but ultimately after hours of let's plays and watching other people's gameplay I've noticed there are 3 basic styles of play:

1) Spam quen, jump in, do as much damage before quen runs out, retreat
2) Yrden/trap kiting
3) Spamming bombs and aard for instakills

All of them, except quen spamming, rely on rolling around your enemies like a frenzied badger. On normal and above W2 combat *is* about luring enemies into traps and for the most part playing passively around your opponent interrupted by short bouts of offense.

What I don't like in your system is
1) lack of risk
2) lack of skill involved
3) no downsides

How would you see those addressed in your system?
 
Garrison72

Garrison72

Mentor
#44
Jan 20, 2014
fizzbizz said:
W3 combat is supposed to build on the combat model in W2. I assume this means the tactics will remain mostly the same - kite enemies, engage on your terms, abuse mobility and poke stragglers. I understand you don't like the idea of kiting enemies but ultimately after hours of let's plays and watching other people's gameplay I've noticed there are 3 basic styles of play:

1) Spam quen, jump in, do as much damage before quen runs out, retreat
2) Yrden/trap kiting
3) Spamming bombs and aard for instakills

All of them, except quen spamming, rely on rolling around your enemies like a frenzied badger. On normal and above W2 combat *is* about luring enemies into traps and for the most part playing passively around your opponent interrupted by short bouts of offense.
Click to expand...
You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTYDUoJUXXk
 
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A

apollozen

Rookie
#45
Jan 20, 2014
fizzbizz said:
Good to read another approach, you obviously went with different assumptions than I did here. It's clear that the abuse of this mechanic needs to be limited. You're suggesting short-term potions.

I don't like the idea of quaffing potions to execute supermoves. Potions provide long-term benefits, what we're talking about here is a single move lasting less than it'd take for the potion to actually enter the stomach. A massive difference in scope and you want to keep things consistent.

As such the idea of having the ability limited by reusable resources and a hard cap is pretty good, but I don't feel it plays well with existing potion mechanics. Invent a new mechanic and work around that and it may be workable.

W3 combat is supposed to build on the combat model in W2. I assume this means the tactics will remain mostly the same - kite enemies, engage on your terms, abuse mobility and poke stragglers. I understand you don't like the idea of kiting enemies but ultimately after hours of let's plays and watching other people's gameplay I've noticed there are 3 basic styles of play:

1) Spam quen, jump in, do as much damage before quen runs out, retreat
2) Yrden/trap kiting
3) Spamming bombs and aard for instakills

All of them, except quen spamming, rely on rolling around your enemies like a frenzied badger. On normal and above W2 combat *is* about luring enemies into traps and for the most part playing passively around your opponent interrupted by short bouts of offense.

What I don't like in your system is
1) lack of risk
2) lack of skill involved
3) no downsides

How would you see those addressed in your system?
Click to expand...
Lack of risk or skill? Not sure what you mean, you can use them at the wrong time and gain nothing from them, and since you don't recover until after combat, you can waste your potions completely (you read the part where I'd limit it to 3 before you perma max out your toxicity right?). Any slow-mo/vats system mechanically won't be difficult to execute...its about the decision on when to use it, and on what...this system simply emphasizes that as what makes the system tactically relevant instead of "I can do it now so I will". Also if you've played TW1...the Blizzard potion IS what they are describing as Witcher Sense (slow mo), also in TW1 White Honey and the healing potion were INSTANT use short term benefits...

No downsides? I clearly said it maxes toxicity with would apply negative debuffs and visual effects to Geralt...so...I'm not sure what you mean there either?

I'm not sure how this doesn't build off TW2 as well. Predrinking potions is there...now there are also just some you can use in combat (like in TW1).

They've already removed rolling (replaced it with a different mechanic)...which was 99% of combat in TW2...so "building off" of it means something different to you, especially since regardless of how Witcher Sense turns out its a brand spanking NEW mechanic that has no foundation in TW2 to begin with.

Also all my playthroughs of TW2 are on Dark difficulty. I either spam Igni as a mage, or throw an Aard roll behind enemy and kill them in 3-4 swings with my sword as a Swordsman...the ONLY difficult part of the game where I don't play super aggressive is the Eternal Battle where you control ghosts. Letho, the Dragon, The Draug...all 3-4 swings in the back. Only time I cast Quen was to be lazy on the Keyran fight (place trap, cast quen, stand on trap, EZ tentacle trap while taking no dmg)...never used bombs or Yrden...Aard/Igni/roll/swing are the only things I've used on Dark, only ever die on Eternal Battle because screw the Standard Bearer.
 
Sardukhar

Sardukhar

Moderator
#46
Jan 30, 2014
slimgrin said:
You mean like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTYDUoJUXXk
Click to expand...
That was a damn nice fight. Good use of Signs, nice timing, good mobility. Honestly, Dark mode is the way to go.
 
F

FoggyFishburne

Banned
#47
Feb 2, 2014
Sirnaq said:
I hope it will be more similar to blademode/zandatsu from metal gear rising than vats.
Click to expand...
I agree. Especially since it worked fucking great in Revengeance. It really added to the experience and it was great fun trying to chain them together and kill a lot of enemies really fast. If the Witcher Sense ends up being anything like that, ho boy baby! 'Tis gonna be guuud :D
 
O

ONLY_ONCE

Rookie
#48
Feb 3, 2014
The combat was dull in TW2, I welcome anything New & Better.
 
S

Shelledfade

Rookie
#49
Feb 8, 2014
I hope its optional, and there are skills that you can take that make you stronger if you choose not to us VATS. I don't have a problem with using vats as I really enjoy playing fallout, but I also like pretending I'm actually fighting with a sword in a game and vats takes away from that experience, so I hope the combat outside of vats is good, and that it is entirely optional.
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#50
Feb 8, 2014
The system won't be in the game, too expensive to implement. You'll be able to use oils and bombs to weaken creatures instead.
 
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D

daddy300

Mentor
#51
Feb 8, 2014
ReptilePZ said:
The system won't be in the game, too expensive to implement. You'll be able to use oils and bombs to weaken creatures instead.
Click to expand...


Expensive and not fun.
 
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B

Boreas_Mun_bg

Senior user
#52
Feb 8, 2014
Is it confirmed that the VATS system is out of the game?
 
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ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#53
Feb 8, 2014
Yes.

http://forums.cdprojektred.com/threads/20991-Interviews-and-Articles-on-TW3?p=1235181&viewfull=1#post1235181

"- the initial V.A.T.S. (of Fallout fame)-like combat feature was overhauled (for monetary reasons), so that there are still specific weak spots and special features factoring in and to be mindful of during combat, but targeting a specific organ or something like that is not necessary anymore

- instead you're using special bombs and oils to exploit a weakness or to counter a special ability, like, for instance, the ridiculous health regeneration rate of one particular creature"
 
Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
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F

FoggyFishburne

Banned
#54
Feb 11, 2014
Oh man. I liked the idea. I thought that a Blade mode style feature could really add to the game and if implemented right, innovate the genre. Oh well. You'll be missed, conceptual idea that is now discarded. Farewell my friend.
 
S

Sirnaq

Rookie
#55
Feb 11, 2014
Case closed, time to chill out, drink some ice cold beer and listen to witcher soundtrack.
 
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Reactions: ReptilePZ
A

althrian

Rookie
#56
Feb 11, 2014
that's one of the more beautiful songs of the OST imo :) I just miss my beer ...
 
G

Geralt_and_Ciri

Rookie
#57
Feb 12, 2014
Now we need just some gameplay, that show how it work. So Geralt need to know the weak point of thing that will make easier to kill a monster, maybe this is the point of almost all the mini-quest, like "find the book for kill a "hualakulaguralata"" "find the ingredients for make a specific oil or thing , to kill a ghoul warrior master sword dancer" "Talk in X point with Mr Chiwawa, he know how to kill to Munduscolumbus" and those things.
 
B

Belzebutinov

Senior user
#58
Feb 12, 2014
Geralt and Ciri said:
Now we need just some gameplay, that show how it work. So Geralt need to know the weak point of thing that will make easier to kill a monster, maybe this is the point of almost all the mini-quest, like "find the book for kill a "hualakulaguralata"" "find the ingredients for make a specific oil or thing , to kill a ghoul warrior master sword dancer" "Talk in X point with Mr Chiwawa, he know how to kill to Munduscolumbus" and those things.
Click to expand...
Reminds me of the Kayran sidequests: get a poison-resist potion so you don't get molten alive, and get a trap for his tentacles if you're not too keen on Yrden (I didn't use the trap, I kept the gold for the armor sets). Honestly, I hope we get something slightly more impressive than that for TW 3 :)
 
T

The_Crow.410

Rookie
#59
Feb 28, 2014
v.a.t.s

How do you think this will work? Do you believe that introduce this system is good idea? Do you believe the witcher 3 vats will be identical to the fallout 3 vats?
 
ReptilePZ

ReptilePZ

Wordrunner
#60
Feb 28, 2014
http://forums.cdprojektred.com/threads/21004-Geralt's-VATS-system

The VATS-like system will not make it into the game due to budget constraints.
 
Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
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