Gesture and expression: less is more

[Garrison72]

Gesture and expression: less is more

I'm starting this because after seeing that the facial animations and expressions aren't refined yet (leaked vid) it'd be nice to provide feedback on what TW2 did well on this front, and where it was lacking. It will also be a place to post video examples of games that have done this well or poorly. Now, my take on TW2:

The bad: mostly, the animations were stiff and not varied enough. Gestures were nicely done but reused too often. Lip syncing was sometimes off and lacked nuance, especially with Geralt. For some reason the female characters seemed to fare better in this regard.

The good: Marvelous work with eyes and eyebrows. I laughed when Geralt would roll his eyes at Sile or Dandelion, and when he looked with suspicious disdain at the the troll who asked if 'Witcha man likes men'. The eyes of characters were always moving, and focusing at the right spot during a conversation. When Triss hugs Geralt in the last chapter just after helping him over the cliff's edge, she has the most endearing look on her face and it's all done with the eyes. This did wonders for bringing characters to life.

I guess I should tie all of this into the thread title..got distracted. Basically, there were apparent restrictions in TW2, be it the engine or time allotted. But it seems the animators* compensated for this by using great restraint and subtlety. Animating characters in games is notoriously difficult and it's all too easy to go overboard. It could be that the limitations helped CDPR get a lot of things right, and they should remember this.

I'll be roving youtube for links now..


* it was actually the writing team who did most of the animations, which is pretty fucking remarkable.

 

[Blothulfur]

Damn right, personally I think Philippa's expression as she emerges from a certain door after tending to a certain person in Vergen is priceless. A cold, calculating smile there expresses a whole host of realisations without any clumsy exposition.

Roche was also good for this, lots of little gestures and mannerisms that really added to his character, especially when in the Dungeons of LaValette.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

I'm still crying over the Enhanced Edition changing Iorveth's expressions on 2 occasions in Act 1.

The first when you tell him Letho tried to kill Ciaran, he clenched his teeth, barely containing his anger. Now nothing. The second is when he threatened you with the bee hive, he'd walk up to Geralt till they're face to face, making him more intimidating than just standing still and moving his arm.

Like why these moments were so perfect.

 

[avydia1.388]

About the leaked video: it's also clear that Geralt's animations are far from finished... He's still very clumsy, running and walking still in TW2 style.

 

[Jobbert.907]

Like why these moments were so perfect.

That teeth clenching moment was awesome. With the second moment I understand the change better, because I didn't feel the "in-the-face" animation worked well with the cold way Iorveth was threatening Geralt. Still, that scene is a bit more boring now.

And I agree with you slim, more variations in the body and face animations. Eyes were spot-on.

 

[vivaxardas2015]

I liked most of them, some were priceless. But sometimes, not during cut-scenes, but a regular play, people would talk without moving lips, and with blank stares. Especially obvious in the beginning of Chapter 2, when Dethmold just stares motionless into the void, while talking about power of Sabrina. Simply crazy contrast between dialog and absence of animation. This should not happen in TW3. I want TW3 to be perfect.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

I don't think it's even appropriate to talk about the pre-alpha version leaked video, you know, the one which wasn't supposed to be seen by players, but this is a great thread to have.

The expressions and gestures in TW2 were great, and I disagree that less is more- I'd like to see more variations of gestures and facial expressions. Really, I would like the facial expressions to reflect what's going on in the head of the characters; maybe the expressions are involuntary, or done on purpose to deceive or misdirect. But I especially enjoy conversations where Geralt raises his eyebrow, nicely done each time.

I feel some hand gestures were repeated too much in TW2, that's why the next game should have more variation in such gestures.

From a different preservative, the idea that less is more is a valid idea in this case because I don't think the actions in the game should come off as overly dramatic or theatrical, and I think the best way to do it is like TW2 did it- make such actions as natural as possible; I mean both visually natural, and also natural in what you would expect to see from real people.

 

[GuyNwah]

I'm not sure "less is more" is quite the best expression, more like "subtlety speaks louder". Games are a small-screen medium, more like television than film, and the polar opposite of live theater. On the small screen, a subtle gesture, even a slightly raised eyebrow, speaks.

When they get the subtle expressions, especially Geralt's eyes or Philippa's lips, right, they really get them right. If they can get them right consistently in TW3, they will have an exceptional achievement.

 

[Thothistox]

Some good ideas in this thread.

I agree that subtlety is a good thing. Look at Bioware for an example of what not to do. Their animations in DAO and ME2 were pretty good, but in DA2 and ME3 the characters looked like they were straining to frown as much as possible. I think the facial expressions in TW2 were too rigid, but at the same time if they get a better "expression engine" I think they should practice some restraint. Sometimes a blank expression and a glace are enough.

 

[Garrison72]

ME2 was quite good with expressions and animations. The DA games aren't on the same level. LA Noire dips into the uncanny valley way too much. Arkham games are too exaggerated. Dues Ex:HR is one of the worst I've seen this side of the original Deus Ex. The new Tomb Raider was pretty solid, Laura's facial expressions were spot on with the VO's. She had wonderful running and jumping animations as well. The running was actually contextual, it changed based on the terrain she was covering. I would love if CDPR could pull this off.

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Assassin's Creed 3 also had very good animations, and subtle characterization through them.

 

[username_2093396]

I'm not sure "less is more" is quite the best expression, more like "subtlety speaks louder". Games are a small-screen medium, more like television than film, and the polar opposite of live theater. On the small screen, a subtle gesture, even a slightly raised eyebrow, speaks.

When they get the subtle expressions, especially Geralt's eyes or Philippa's lips, right, they really get them right. If they can get them right consistently in TW3, they will have an exceptional achievement.

I agree with this I prefer subtle expressions and gestures most of the time. I don't like how some games have the characters act way over-the-top with exaggerated expressions and such. I think that takes away the seriousness of the situation by making it comical

For example let's say Geralt is surprised by a monster. Maybe his eyes would get a little wider or he'd raise an eyebrow to show he wasn't expecting it. On the other hand, another game might have the character's eyes bug out and mouth open in a comical 'O' shape where it's so silly I end up laughing even though it's supposed to be a scary moment

 

[Garrison72]

Assassin's Creed 3 also had very good animations, and subtle characterization through them.

A friend encouraged me to buy this after I explained my disappointment with the first two games. I played up to Boston and was thoroughly impressed. Everything was better than AC2. I agree, the expressions, animations and VO's are all very well done. I really liked Haytham. Unfortunately, because of account difficulties through Uplay, I'm now locked out of the game and can no longer play it. I truly hate software clients.

/end rant

 

[username_2093396]

A friend encouraged me to buy this after I explained my disappointment with the first two games. I played up to Boston and was thoroughly impressed. Everything was better than AC2. I agree, the expressions, animations and VO's are all very well done. I really liked Haytham. Unfortunately, because of account difficulties through Uplay, I'm now locked out of the game and can no longer play it. I truly hate software clients.

/end rant

Wow, your post simultaneously makes want to play AC3 right now and never So far the only Uplay game I've tried was Prince of Persia: Forgotten Sands (which incidentally is a good example of the main character looking stupid ). There were days where it gave me trouble and took a long time to sign in, but it didn't actually lock me out of the game permanently. My bad experience was why I was in no hurry to get AC3 (I still need to play Brotherhood and Revelations anyway) but I'm even more disappointed to hear that it can remove games from your account

 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Yea uplay sucks big time. AC3 however is great.

 

[username_3682323]

I loved the expressions in TW2. but as a vid that wasn't even supposed to be seen I think they should be caught some slack. although you have to wonder if they leaked it to keep people interested

 

[TheMorbidAtheist]

just watched the leaked vid, don't really like the fact that Geralt can jump over a small stream. Too skyrimy. Part of the reason I love the Witcher is because I can never find jumping realistic in most RPGs so I'd rather not have it at all. Climbing is okay, and triggered jumped in the W2 was okay too.

on a side note, the physics are outstanding. Never seen a forest move like that. Downloaded the vid. onto my phone in case its taken down. will watch over and over and salivate...

 

[Garrison72]

just watched the leaked vid, don't really like the fact that Geralt can jump over a small stream. Too skyrimy. Part of the reason I love the Witcher is because I can never find jumping realistic in most RPGs so I'd rather not have it at all. Climbing is okay, and triggered jumped in the W2 was okay too.

Games like Sleeping Dogs and Assassin's Creed handle this so much better because it's contextual. I really hope they go this way rather than the retarded jumping we get in GTA or Skyrim. It looks silly and clumsy and it's hard to make it effective in-game.



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOP0oNDVOWU[/media]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiJ3j1nYuSE[/media]

 

[Cs__sz__r]

Gta jumping has always been embarrassing for some reason. They just can't nail jumping. I don't really know/remember what Skyrim jumping looks like as 99% of the time I played first person.

But oh Morrowind. I miss the old days when I would be butt ass naked and jump 30 or 40 feet into the air. Aye I entertained the various rulers of the world with my acrobatics. Even the Emperor himself once. Into the night I would go, eyes glaring at me when I'd climb the Foreign Quarter in Vivec. Madman and suicidal they would shout as I leaped from that building. Only to amaze them when I landed feet first on the ground with such finesse.

 

[Sycophant.568]

Going by the leaked vid, CDP Red still hasn't touched most of the animations - most of them were straight from TW2 and the new ones were janky as hell. So, like the OP, I'd like to throw in input :

Since the quests are handcrafted, what I ask is... pay attention to the expressions. TW2 had them placeholder animations everywhere, which combined with the way that facial structure is nearly the same for every NPC in the game (especially the chicks, that bugged me like hell eg why are there Triss look-alikes everywhere?) is highly distracting. Clever usage of animations, like TW2 did with Phillipa, Henselt, and Iorveth, will go a long way in redeeming that.

One thing which is slightly unrelated - CDP Red should really ditch the Camera A-Camera B thing they have going in conversations... it reminds me of George Lucas' directing, and really detracts from the hard work they put in their game. Creative camera angles, like during Geralt leaving from Loc Muine(EE edition), or Henselt's death, but instituted in the game's conversation system, instead of being present only in cutscenes. Would improve TW3 by miles.