Ghost in the Machine (and other concepts)

[cmdr_silverbolt]

Ghost in the Machine (and other concepts)

The GITM is a really interesting concept related to "artificial" intelligence. The idea is that something with a relatively greater level of intelligence would be likely to develop consciousness. Primarily, this concept was a reason why I got into GITS (Ghost in the Shell movies and anime), and I really appreciated the way it's explored during the course of the show, especially with the conversations of the Tachikomas.

Here's a nice review of the show's philosophy, but there might be spoilers.

As I am mostly unfamiliar with the world of CP2020, how does the GITM idea manifest in the PnP game? What other types of concepts manifest in the game, besides brain dancing.

Also, what are some of your favorite technology-related concepts as it concerns consciousness. Another one I like is ghost dubbing, again from GITS, which involved the transference of consciousness.

 

[Decatonkeil]

I once had a long polite and educated argument on GITS (in this case it was the movie) with the maker of this video. I found that, while he had a deep understanding of the movie, had documented himself in some of the cultural aspects and had an interesting view on the meanings, we had radically different opinions on... well, the central point of his analysis: that there is no ghost in the shell. He said that "this was clear by the movie's own logic" but there I failed to see how that was that way.

See, I'm an atheist, but I like me some transcendental sci-fi. I like my conceptions of the world to be challenged at least in works of fiction that don't ask me to live life according to them (those that aren't "holy books" of a religion), that kind of thing sends shivers down my spine. I started a thread on the "deeper meanings" of various cyberpunk works in the off-topic, for everyone to propose questions on "what does this in this particular work mean to you guys" and have a debate on that... the idea didn't take off, sadly (to me at least)... I may or may not try to revive the thread myself at some point when I have more questions on other works (you have to really diversify if you want to poke your finger in the topics that grabbed different people's attention).

Well, the thing is that Shirow may or may not be a believer in shintoism but he sometimes asks the reader to open his or her mind to some of the things that the world he creates has in common with such kind of spirituality, when other times he states that a ghost and a soul aren't the same.

The ghost dubbing that you talk about might be, the way I see it, a proof that a ghost is indeed a soul and that it has a cosmic importance. The "rational outcome" that should come from copying a ghost is that you get two individuals with a virtually identical mental pattern... but they would be two individuals capable of independent behaviour though predictable... but instead the original ghost "degrades" and dies. Why is this? The "rational answer" would be that the process is very traumatic, but... what if it is the order of the universe that wouldn't allow a unique soul to exist as a double?

Sorry about the rambling about GITS while not answering your question on how this works in CP2020. I just wish I didn't bore you to tears XD

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

With regards to CP2020 and AI, there isn't really much mentioned. There are AI in the game, though the most powerful entity in the Net would probably be Alt Cunningham. She created the beta version of the Soulkiller program, which creates a copy of a Netrunners mind within the Net, an emulation if you will. The Soulkiller was designed to kill Hackers attempting to attack the Soulkillers host network and copy their mind for storage and interigation at a later date.

Saburo Araska, CEO of the Arasaka Corporation, kidnapped Alt and extracted all the information he wanted from her. He then used the Soulkiller on on her so that he could get rid of her body and continue the interigation at a secure location. However, Alts Emulated Conciousness escaped into the Net. This Emulated Conciousness is refered to as a 'Ghost'.

Now, to the OP's question:

How does the GITM idea manifest in the PnP game? What other types of concepts manifest in the game, besides brain dancing?
Also, what are some of your favorite technology-related concepts as it concerns consciousness?

The very existence of Ghosts is only really touched on in the manner I have already described. It is 'currently' a singular occurance, to my knowledge, though there may be more information on the subject that I have not read.

With regards to 2077, I think everything will hinge on how Mike plans to use the events of the Fourth Coprorate War. A virus attacked every database that was connected to the Net, essentially destroying 99.99% of all digitally stored information. There was one database left, in the Arasaka Tower in Night City. That Tower, (and the Database it contained,) met it's end due to a low-yield tactical device that was intended to just destroy the tower set off the internal self destruct device, whcih was a 2-kiloton bomb, (which is only 1/8th the power of the bomb that leveled Hiroshima... Nothing to get too stressed about, Chombata...)

So, depending on how Mike plays it, if Alt survived and so did a copy of Soulkiller, (or one of it's derivatives,) then it would be plausible that more 'Ghosts' would be formed.

The biggest 'other concept' would be the Net. It is not the same as our modern Internet. The manner in which users interface with the Net is the big concept. A manifestation of yourself is used while you are 'online' inside the Net. You effectively put your concious into this 'Avatar' and you have no awareness of what is going on around your physical body. All Programs and Data has a 'physical' representation in the Net, an Icon. These are connected in a similar manner as a road network. Interaction with these Icons, using yourself or programs, is conducted upon this 'map' of grids and shapes. It is very much like a combination of 'The Matrix' and 'Tron'. Though, sisually, more like Tron, but it was the 80's...

Much like GitS, almost everyone has a 'nerural processor', with which they can link into devices and, depending on what other mods they have oinstalled, the can potentially control devices remotely in this manner. Also, just like GitS and Appleseed, full body cyborg conversions are available. But the approach each of these take with full-borgs differes widely:

In GitS, a full body conversion litterally transplants your conciousness into another cybernetic brain. There is no stigma attached to cybernetics and no 'adverse' affects are really discussed. It is hinted at, however, that by mecoming more machine, you begin to dilute your humanity. Another point is that these full-borgs are almost always indistinguishable from a normal human, at a glance.

In Applseed, full body borgs are created around the bodies of their 'host' as a replacement. Their bodies cannot support them any longer and they can only survive in this form. These replacements, while humanoid, tend to be all machine in appearance. They are huge, hulking forms, much stronger and heavier than a human and posess heavily enhanced reflexes, senses and mental faculties. They also feel pain.
In the 2004/2007 films, cybernetics in general carry some stigma, though full borgs all seem to carry the 'burden' of their new existance and often long to be human once more. (Unless they are homocidal manics, in which case they revel in the destructive capabilities.) This stigma is not present in the origional film.

Cyberpunk is very different from both of these. Cybernetic enhancement gives their users a cumulative feeling of being less human and more machine as more is replaced. Full-borgs more than any others. This manifests itself as a feeling of being 'disconnected' from people, a feeling of loneliness. this can escalate to the point where the user flips and goes 'Cyber-Psycho', a mad rampage massacring innocents. The way to avoid this is to recieve therapy. The borgs themselves vary wildly in appearance. Some are almost indistinguishabe from humans while others look more like a tank than a person.

I hope that helps.

 

[Decatonkeil]

In GitS, a full body conversion litterally transplants your conciousness into another cybernetic brain. There is no stigma attached to cybernetics and no 'adverse' affects are really discussed. It is hinted at, however, that by mecoming more machine, you begin to dilute your humanity. Another point is that these full-borgs are almost always indistinguishable from a normal human, at a glance.

In GitS, a full body conversion litterally transplants your conciousness into another cybernetic brain. There is no stigma attached to cybernetics and no 'adverse' affects are really discussed. It is hinted at, however, that by mecoming more machine, you begin to dilute your humanity. Another point is that these full-borgs are almost always indistinguishable from a normal human, at a glance.

That's what I thought when I first watched GitS, that cyberbrains were themselves like hard drives for ghosts, but taking into consideration what the name of this illness that has an importance in SAC, cyberbrain schlerosis, and what it implies (tumors in nerve tissue) or how in the mini-episode of the manga 'Megatech Machine II' it's said that "you can't see the brain and spinal cord because they are covered" made me change my idea to: a cyberbrain is more like a device or set of devices that encases the natural brain and expands it with new functions (dictionaries, external memory, networking, AR...). Even though, this cyberbrain still makes body swapping easier and less traumatic, and would explain why we are shown sequences where the cyberbrain is put inside the skull instead of bein already inside.

The only disadvantages for becoming a cyborg in that universe I can think of is being a target for ghost hacking or suffering a mental condition derived from living in a body that doesn't age or grow when you can't change it for a new one. That and weight.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

That's what I thought when I first watched GitS, that cyberbrains were themselves like hard drives for ghosts, but taking into consideration what the name of this illness that has an importance in SAC, cyberbrain schlerosis, and what it implies (tumors in nerve tissue) or how in the mini-episode of the manga 'Megatech Machine II' it's said that "you can't see the brain and spinal cord because they are covered" made me change my idea to: a cyberbrain is more like a device or set of devices that encases the natural brain and expands it with new functions (dictionaries, external memory, networking, AR...). Even though, this cyberbrain still makes body swapping easier and less traumatic, and would explain why we are shown sequences where the cyberbrain is put inside the skull instead of bein already inside.

The only disadvantages for becoming a cyborg in that universe I can think of is being a target for ghost hacking or suffering a mental condition derived from living in a body that doesn't age or grow when you can't change it for a new one. That and weight.

You have me there. I went on what I thought I knew, rather than doing proper research. As little as 2.5% of a host origional brain material, (including the stem,) is housed within an aritfical construct which is the Cyberbrain.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

Well, the thing is that Shirow may or may not be a believer in shintoism but he sometimes asks the reader to open his or her mind to some of the things that the world he creates has in common with such kind of spirituality, when other times he states that a ghost and a soul aren't the same.

He's right- a ghost isn't the same as a soul. The ghost is the manifestation of the sum of your physiology, whereas the soul is the perception of that manifestation. In our world, people seek out spirituality for various reasons, and his emphasis is that consciousness is integral in allowing that to happen. All in all, consciousness is the ghost, the holistic entity of your biochemical and physiological components. How you reconcile and perceive the ghost is different.

I just want to clarify that whatever I am saying is contextual.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

You have me there. I went on what I thought I knew, rather than doing proper research. As little as 2.5% of a host origional brain material, (including the stem,) is housed within an aritfical construct which is the Cyberbrain.

Well, GITS, while entertaining, is quasi-scientific. The thing that's often neglected while talking about "brain implants" is the relation and interdependency of the components relative to each other, and that of the brain to the body.

Thanks for clarifying about CP2020, though.

 

[Decatonkeil]

You have me there. I went on what I thought I knew, rather than doing proper research. As little as 2.5% of a host origional brain material, (including the stem,) is housed within an aritfical construct which is the Cyberbrain.

Wow, I really don't know where you've got that percentage. But people who want to get into GITS should still be aware that there is a lot of data that was attributed as GITS canon by... I don't know who exactly... press?

There's a lot of sites and people for example that call Motoko Makoto, that say that "only a portion of her brain" is human, maybe because that's what they understood from the "there's brain cells inside that titanium shell of yours" (I don't know what are the exact words in english) meant that... but I understood that what Batou meant by that is that "yes, you can't look inside your head and see if a natural brain is really there, you might even be fooled into believing that... but inside the brain augmentation carcass there is nerve tissue, there's a natural brain". It would be really weird that they would have salvaged just a piece of brain from her original body: what an accident would it have been! and it takes balls to still be interested in a persons brain so that even a small portion of her brain suits your needs of a public security agent!

I understand that Motoko Kusanagi is as far as you can go becoming a cyborg in the GITS universe, and that means that only the brain and spinal cord are the original ones (it seems these are the only essential parts... maybe the full spinal cord not so much... I've seen how they had those two isolated with life support but I can't say if it always included the latter). Batou is the same only in some incarnations (in the manga it's implied that his arms might be anchored to a natural torso).

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Wow, I really don't know where you've got that percentage. But people who want to get into GITS should still be aware that there is a lot of data that was attributed as GITS canon by... I don't know who exactly... press?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_Ghost_in_the_Shell