Graphic downgrade

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I'm sure CDPR would be only too willing to oblige your wish once you and your pals (you know, those with the 2000-5000$ rigs) each have made a generous donation to keep things economically profitable for them. Obviously, this monetary contribution would have to be quite high (lots of zeroes) ... but hey, if you think that you're unfairly treated because the developer for some absurd reason has decided to mainly focus on building a game that the vast majority of consumers can actually play on their system, then this seems like a reasonable alternative. ;)

i am pretty sure i never stated anywhere how i feel or how i was treated. so far i simply ask questions. with that being said do you think a donation for something that might be (or was) already implemented is necessary?
 
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Graphic Degradation rate can be easily traced through this full The Witcher 3 screenshots chronology:
Almost Awesome (this is first TW3 screens back in 2013 (too much sharpen filter) March 1, 2013
Awesome June 12, 2013
Awesome June 26, 2013
Awesome August 21, 2013
Awesome January 29, 2014
Not Bad June 5, 2014
Not Bad June 11, 2014
so-so August 13, 2014
Awful October 2, 2014
Awful January 26, 2015

I'm not seeing the regress that you see. On the contrary - the old screenshots are hopelessly oversharpened. But i can agree that the last two batches of shots do not look very convincing. The simplified lighting of the new renderer and the strange postprocessing in the DOF that makes everything look blocky and aliased are very irritating. NPCs look cartoony, like cutouts, because of the strange flat lighting on them that does not match the environment.

Luckily the lighting problems i described are not evident in the PAX trailer. Still, the DOF issues persist.
 
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i am pretty sure i never stated anywhere how i feel or how i was treated. so far i simply ask questions. with that being said do you think a donation for something that might be (or was) already implemented is necessary?

I think assuming a highly polished trailer that gets shown 1.5 years before a game - and open world game to boot - is supposed to be released (not counting the 6 months delay) contains actual in-game footage build on a finished engine is a sign of either ignorance or naivity.
 
I think assuming a highly polished trailer that gets shown 1.5 years before a game - and open world game to boot - is supposed to be released (not counting the 6 months delay) contains actual in-game footage build on a finished engine is a sign of either ignorance or naivity.

since i never made any reference to a trailer...i cannot help but to feel lost :)
 
Luckily the lighting problems i described are not evident in the PAX trailer. Still, the DOF issues persist.
Lightning problem - is the one primary problem, that have ALL TW3 gameplays, compare to 2013 in-game footages and screens, strange that you can not see it.. In 2013 builds - lighting looks really like a next-gen (even better than Unity) in 2014 builds - worse past-gen.
In the new gameplay - objects no longer reflect light, no shading (ambient occlusion), disgusting grass, and many many other issues that have already listed before me for a hundred times.
 
Lightning problem - is the one primary problem, that have ALL TW3 gameplays, compare to 2013 in-game footages and screens, strange that you can not see it.. In 2013 builds - lighting looks really like a next-gen (even better than Unity) in 2014 builds - worse past-gen.
In the new gameplay - objects no longer reflect light, no shading (ambient occlusion), disgusting grass, and many many other issues that have already listed before me for a hundred times.

Pretty sure AO will be in the game. I can't imagine why they wouldn't put it in. What are you referring to when you're talking about reflections? Also, grass isn't really related to lighting (but I'm not a huge fan of it either).
 
Lightning problem - is the one primary problem, that have ALL TW3 gameplays, compare to 2013 in-game footages and screens, strange that you can not see it.. In 2013 builds - lighting looks really like a next-gen (even better than Unity) in 2014 builds - worse past-gen.
In the new gameplay - objects no longer reflect light, no shading (ambient occlusion), disgusting grass, and many many other issues that have already listed before me for a hundred times.

I'm the first one that will shout "lighting is everything!" and i cannot play games without ambient occlusion anymore because everything looks so fake without it. I can assure you, AO is used in the latest PAX trailer - look closer.

Many thanks for the screenshot - many gamers feel there's something fishy going on but cannot say what it is - here everyone can see it very clearly. Makes me very sad.

This is a must see:

 
What are you referring to when you're talking about reflections?
Just note, how swords and metal armor pieces look in the old screenshots\footages. All that shines in the sun, reflects sunlight, just sparkle (this features was even in TW2) Now compare it to the latest TW3 screenshots..
 
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since i never made any reference to a trailer...i cannot help but to feel lost :)
Gee, and here I was thinking the fact that people assume the game got downgraded originated from the "mindblowing" announcement trailer that gets constantly referenced in this thread and the comparision that arises when the original footage is contrasted with the recent gameplay material.
 
I think one thing that people should remember, before they post anything, is that there are currently about 250 people pouring blood and sweat into this game, day in and day out, to make it as good as they can possibly make if for you.

Now I'm as concerned about the game's fidelity not living up to the early footage as much as anyone. But nobody should be making comments that disregard or dismiss the amount of sheer effort and life being pumped into this game, by the same people who have released content, patches, and graphical upgrades for all of their games FOR FREE post release.

So it's okay to be worried, it's okay to not be worried, but it's not okay spout vitriol in the absence possible place for it in this discussion.

In regards to the 'Dark and Gritty Feel' that is missing in newer footage.

This is very clearly an artistic styling choice, and one that can be corrected for an individual user if they want to do a little bit of research. Using a directx dll hook to call in an extra sharpening pass or two, and do some slight color desaturation/rebalancing is actually really easy from a technical standpoint, and shouldn't cause noticeable framerate drops.

Those interested in that can do some research on the DarkD3 filter that was written for Diablo 3 on release to correct just such a juxtaposition of given and desired thematic styling.


Now onto grey flatness. Much of that is the fact that gameplay footage that we have been seeing recently is not running any form of volumetric cloud/lighting (as shown off best in the 2013 Nvidia tech demos and VGX/'Debut Gameplay' trailers, though also seen in the SOD trailer.

That means that in order to get the same ambiance in say, a swamp, you need to apply a little bit of a washed out effect to do so.

Many of the recently released 'screenshots' of the game show this greyness gone (as well as noticeable ubersampling, forward lit soft particles, etc) and a few of the other previous advertised advanced features can even be seen in the most recent video footage. This means that those features still exist in the game, though it doesn't mean that they are currently stable in a playable fashion and that further optimization or future hardware might be required to elicit the full detail of the game.


Now vegetation. Yes, there have been some well-illustrated examples of vegetation variety and density being drastically reduced. This is usually one of the first areas to cut in the event of performance issue. It makes a lot of sense that such vegetation detail would be drastically reduced on all but the highest graphical settings.

In many games, (Take Skyrim, for example), even at max settings, vegetation density and variety aren't turned up to the maximum that the engine can handle because it would still crush the computers at the time of release. (A LOD slider bars and an ini tweak a year or two down the road drastically increased realism and fidelity of all of the vegetation)

Whether the old models for vegetation still exist are up for debate given that we've only seen one or two of them, but it doesn't make sense to waste assets, and CDPR has no history of cutting content from their games (only for releasing even more content after release)


On to character models. Much of this has been shown (through clever image color editing) to be mostly due to lighting. The main differences between the post-processed engine footage for faces in the SOD trailer and what's been seen in the recent gameplay footage is the lack of Nvidia Hairworks (a feature you would not want enabled on non-max settings due to the proportionally insane frame hits that it can cause (look at TombRaider)) and a slight lowering in subsurface scattering (the effect that causes skin to look very textured).

Personally, this is very /easily/ described away as the difference between high and 'ultra' settings.


I'm very worried about this game, because I know that I'll only ever have time to play it once, and so when I do it needs to be the full experience. But the more I dig into the specific graphical disparities that can be quantified, the less and less it looks like I will have my fears realized. Especially given that CDPR has both explicitly denied downgrade of any sort, and explicitly confirmed the availability of VGX-level fidelity to people with enough hardware.

I think there is still a need for more information and data. That the lack of recent 'polished' footage is negatively impacting people's opinions of the game even though I can understand some of the reasons why that footage might be withheld.

If we are going to continue discussing graphical disparities, it needs to be clinically, but not critically. This game is the end result of the last several years of people's LIVES. And they deserve respect when we start really breaking down the question of whether or not we the consumers will at some point be able to play the game in the same level of fidelity that was originally advertised. (And to anyone who says the VGX is pre-render, the 2013 nvidia tech demo is proof negative to that opinion, and nothing has been in the later footage that would cause me to believe the current engine is different than the one which produced those effects.)
 
There is a difference between "disgusting" and the footage we seen so far, a massive difference, your 780 SLI won't go to waste with the current high settings of The Witcher 3.

I know...
am just saying that if the game come with really bad graphics,I would no more support CDPR...
but the fact is here...
I already find the game beautiful,and am wondering what the ultra can display more...
I am quite satisfied with the job they have done :)
 
I think one thing that people should remember, before they post anything, is that there are currently about 250 people pouring blood and sweat into this game, day in and day out, to make it as good as they can possibly make if for you.

Now I'm as concerned about the game's fidelity not living up to the early footage as much as anyone. But nobody should be making comments that disregard or dismiss the amount of sheer effort and life being pumped into this game, by the same people who have released content, patches, and graphical upgrades for all of their games FOR FREE post release.

So it's okay to be worried, it's okay to not be worried, but it's not okay spout vitriol in the absence possible place for it in this discussion.

In regards to the 'Dark and Gritty Feel' that is missing in newer footage.

This is very clearly an artistic styling choice, and one that can be corrected for an individual user if they want to do a little bit of research. Using a directx dll hook to call in an extra sharpening pass or two, and do some slight color desaturation/rebalancing is actually really easy from a technical standpoint, and shouldn't cause noticeable framerate drops.

Those interested in that can do some research on the DarkD3 filter that was written for Diablo 3 on release to correct just such a juxtaposition of given and desired thematic styling.


Now onto grey flatness. Much of that is the fact that gameplay footage that we have been seeing recently is not running any form of volumetric cloud/lighting (as shown off best in the 2013 Nvidia tech demos and VGX/'Debut Gameplay' trailers, though also seen in the SOD trailer.

That means that in order to get the same ambiance in say, a swamp, you need to apply a little bit of a washed out effect to do so.

Many of the recently released 'screenshots' of the game show this greyness gone (as well as noticeable ubersampling, forward lit soft particles, etc) and a few of the other previous advertised advanced features can even be seen in the most recent video footage. This means that those features still exist in the game, though it doesn't mean that they are currently stable in a playable fashion and that further optimization or future hardware might be required to elicit the full detail of the game.


Now vegetation. Yes, there have been some well-illustrated examples of vegetation variety and density being drastically reduced. This is usually one of the first areas to cut in the event of performance issue. It makes a lot of sense that such vegetation detail would be drastically reduced on all but the highest graphical settings.

In many games, (Take Skyrim, for example), even at max settings, vegetation density and variety aren't turned up to the maximum that the engine can handle because it would still crush the computers at the time of release. (A LOD slider bars and an ini tweak a year or two down the road drastically increased realism and fidelity of all of the vegetation)

Whether the old models for vegetation still exist are up for debate given that we've only seen one or two of them, but it doesn't make sense to waste assets, and CDPR has no history of cutting content from their games (only for releasing even more content after release)


On to character models. Much of this has been shown (through clever image color editing) to be mostly due to lighting. The main differences between the post-processed engine footage for faces in the SOD trailer and what's been seen in the recent gameplay footage is the lack of Nvidia Hairworks (a feature you would not want enabled on non-max settings due to the proportionally insane frame hits that it can cause (look at TombRaider)) and a slight lowering in subsurface scattering (the effect that causes skin to look very textured).

Personally, this is very /easily/ described away as the difference between high and 'ultra' settings.


I'm very worried about this game, because I know that I'll only ever have time to play it once, and so when I do it needs to be the full experience. But the more I dig into the specific graphical disparities that can be quantified, the less and less it looks like I will have my fears realized. Especially given that CDPR has both explicitly denied downgrade of any sort, and explicitly confirmed the availability of VGX-level fidelity to people with enough hardware.

I think there is still a need for more information and data. That the lack of recent 'polished' footage is negatively impacting people's opinions of the game even though I can understand some of the reasons why that footage might be withheld.

If we are going to continue discussing graphical disparities, it needs to be clinically, but not critically. This game is the end result of the last several years of people's LIVES. And they deserve respect when we start really breaking down the question of whether or not we the consumers will at some point be able to play the game in the same level of fidelity that was originally advertised. (And to anyone who says the VGX is pre-render, the 2013 nvidia tech demo is proof negative to that opinion, and nothing has been in the later footage that would cause me to believe the current engine is different than the one which produced those effects.)

Just going to nitpick here because I'm special, but wasn't TressFX or something in Tomb Raider? The only game I've played with Hairworks was Far Cry 4 I believe which ran beautifully with it on.
 
I think assuming a highly polished trailer that gets shown 1.5 years before a game - and open world game to boot - is supposed to be released (not counting the 6 months delay) contains actual in-game footage build on a finished engine is a sign of either ignorance or naivity.

Ah ah.
Duly noted.

That's exactly why this ordeal is so insidious. It rewards cynicism. It helps lift that which no efforts should be spared in avoiding or at least mitigating to the category of tolerated norm. In accordance, I'm looking forward to the reactions to CP2077 gameplay reveal trailer, you know, the trailer being released a couple of years before the game comes out.

Wow!! CDPR has managed that a request for a DLC has been made before the game itself has been put up for sale!

Record high of records! ;)

If I understood you correctly, and I have to admit that's not always easy for me, you're surprised I asked for DLC even before game's out, correct? Well, isn't there a thread on this exact subject, DLC requests? Either way, perhaps I can explain myself better. We recently learned PC/Xbox One/PS4 share essentially the same texture assets. Since high-end PCs would be able to handle higher-res textures, and a fair amount of reported dissatisfaction is tied to low res textures, it just seems a logical plea to me. I take it you disagree.

....

I'm always mystified when someone decides to chime in to call for a given thread to be locked. What are you afraid of? The discussion is on going, moderation is supposedly taking care of problems. So why can't threads just die a natural death? Why can't they just go down the front page, one position at a time, and eventually disappear into oblivion and the search functionality? Why can't this simply happen naturally as people naturally loose interest? I think the fact this one is now over 60, sixty, pages long casts a severe verdict not only on the decision to lock the previous one but also on the intriguing rationale that seeks to justify the closure of threads on account they're too much work to moderate.

And this is all I'm going to say on this matter at this point.
 
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While both sides have done some flaming, I don't think anyone actually wants the game to look worse. Some comparison pictures aren't fair, yes. But I'd say a good amount are. The first page had a few nice pictures comparing foliage, there's a good comparison between the 2 Ekhidna we've seen, someone recently posted a comparison of Novigrad from 2013 to 2014 using a webm and a screenshot of the 35 minute gameplay.

With no Ultra footage in sight and with people still unsure of the graphical features that are going to be present in the game, comparisons and doubts will continue. The most CDPR has done to quell any idea of a downgrade was say that there isn't one I believe. That really hasn't done anything considering the fact that people are seeing a difference in the visual quality of TW3 from the Debut Gameplay trailer to now.

I agree that both sides have been behaving too much like blind defenders or haters, but some posts seem to hate on the game with satisfaction, as if they are making some kind of justice or something, when in reality there might not be anything to "fight for" in that regard.

To me, every comparison pic that I remember that doesnt have to do with foliage, was too unfair and unequal to be comparable seriously and discuss an intentional downgrade, that is, lowering the quality of representation of the assets.

Even the Ekhidna not only might be a different sub-species that has a different texture, but also the body textures on it are totally fine, and more or less in line with the previous screenshots in terms of quality (its hard to see it properly though), the thing that doesnt look as good are the wings, and I have a hard time believing that a "downgrade" specifically just of the wings would help CDPR in any substantial way, it makes zero sense, if the whole textures and model would look like those wings I might accept the comparison more. Then of course, lightning is very different, there is no sharpening filter which has a tremendous impact, and etc, lots of differences that make it too hard to tell anything close to concrete.

I've read every post of both downgrade threads, this one and the old one, and many post in other threads as well, same pics appear, arguments and examinations given in the past are ignored and forgotten, and the thread continue to recycle itself with the same points and pics, just like when it was rightfully closed before. I'm just simply not impressed or engaged by what the "downgrade side" posts, just like the explanations some defenders of the game give, like the bs of YouTube compression with ElderBlood directly from the devs, I draw my own conclusions, and by the way, I like how the game looked before in general much more, just so that its clear im not totally in love with TW3 unconditionally.
 
............ and explicitly confirmed the availability of VGX-level fidelity to people with enough hardware.
Do you have a link, plz?

I think there is still a need for more information and data. That the lack of recent 'polished' footage is negatively impacting people's opinions of the game even though I can understand some of the reasons why that footage might be withheld.

I would love to hear your opinion on the "why".
 
Just going to nitpick here because I'm special, but wasn't TressFX or something in Tomb Raider? The only game I've played with Hairworks was Far Cry 4 I believe which ran beautifully with it on.

You are correct. It looks like at that time both Nvidia and AMD were using TressFX, but Nvidia later took that work and developed their proprietary 'Hairworks', letting AMD continue hi-fidelity hair support through TressFX 2.0

I will maintain that both of those hair technologies still require a disproportionate amount of processing for the given effect, and thus are very unlikely to be shown in that highest 'stable' gameplay build. I was merely referencing Tomb Raider as easiest example for people to see the sort of performance hit that could occur.


Link for jjenson: http://forums.cdprojektred.com/threads/32644-Obvious-Downgrade?p=1525774&viewfull=1#post1525774
 
....That's exactly why this ordeal is so insidious. It rewards cynicism.....

I agree and it's funny you should say that since only yesterday I followed a link to a page that exclaimed "Awesome screenshots of the amazingly good looking Just Cause 3!", or words to that effect. My reaction? "Meh, like it will look like that by the time it's released."

Mind you, I'm not solely blaming W3 for that, it's just a growing wariness of the games industry in general. In the past though, I would have been more excited.

Lastly, it was pretty funny, but I'd just gone to that screenshot page after reading this thread and one of the first comments was "Wow, it might look just as good as the Witcher" :)
 
Graphic Degradation rate can be easily traced through this full The Witcher 3 screenshots chronology:
Almost Awesome (this is the first TW3 screens back in 2013 (too much sharpen filter) March 1, 2013
Awesome June 12, 2013
Awesome June 26, 2013
Awesome August 21, 2013
Awesome January 29, 2014
Not Bad June 5, 2014
Not Bad June 11, 2014
so-so August 13, 2014
Awful October 2, 2014
Awful January 26, 2015

I disagree. I like much more art direction from 2014 and 2015 than 2013. Enviro from 2013 for me looks ugly, rough - to much sharpness. Besides that the game in 2013 looks generic and boring and every location looks the same, meh.

So its not graphic degradation, but different art direction which to me looks better.


But i agree that the game now doesnt look as good as Sword of Destiny trailer which to me looks the best of all Witcher footage, even better than VGX trailer (overrated trailer ;) )
 
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