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Graphical advancements in games

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Chri2Kng

Rookie
#1
May 10, 2015
Graphical advancements in games

Please mod, do you lock this thread and move it to the visual thread, this is a whole different issue and topic. Thanks

What is the point of ever buying the top of the line graphic card? Clearly, no developers will ever support true PC quality graphics.

If CDPR let us down, what hope is there for PC gamers? This is suppose to be the first of the next generation gaming for PC.

I think this is a serious question. PC graphic has not improve dramatically in the past decade. My Radeon HD 5850 can still run most game on medium to high. Ultra setting does look better but not that better, and certainly not 7 years worth better.

We PC gamers all crave to someday have graphics that is so realistic it look exactly like real life. Grand Theft Auto IV ICEnhancer mod was the closest I have ever seen to real life graphics (as in looking outside your window).

Someday I hope to be able to see a day and night cycle that one can distinguish morning from afternoon setting because every game right now look like its in the afternoon.

But back on topic - discuss
 
L

Ljesnjanin

Forum veteran
#2
May 10, 2015
thehotsung8701 said:
We PC gamers all crave to someday have graphics that is so realistic it look exactly like real life.
Click to expand...
Well I am PC gamer whole my life but it was never because visuals or graphics...I am PC gamer because I like a precision of M&K controls, because I remember Fallout 1&2, Baldurs Gate, Planescape Torment, Gothic.....I didn't care about graphics 15 years ago, just like don't care about it today...

Just like you said, look through the window if you want "real life graphics"...Or go outside ;)
 
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tahirahmed

Rookie
#3
May 10, 2015
I want to see how your 5850 can run Assassins Creed: Unity ?

and I don't see how it's a different topic, it's basically the same ranting about graphics.

And yeah graphics didn't improved that much during last decade... (Full sarcasm mode)





:facepalm:
 
Last edited: May 10, 2015
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Arvuti

Rookie
#4
May 10, 2015
thehotsung8701 said:
What is the point of ever buying the top of the line graphic card? Clearly, no developers will ever support true PC quality graphics.
Click to expand...
You do realize that the high-end gaming PCs that are able to run games in 1440p ultra 60fps are a minority ? Despite all of that PC gaming master race nonsense, a huge chunk of PC gamers are people who just play LoL, Dota 2, CS:GO etc. Game development is getting more and more expensive, the improved visuals that newer systems can provide double the workload that artists used to have etc. It's simply not feasible anymore to have a game focus primarily on high-end PC's like for example crysis, since they would barely be able to make a profit. You have to remember that game development is a business, if you don't make money, you go bankrupt.

Besides, you can't claim that graphics haven't improved at all. Have you seen Star Citizen, have you seen Batman: Arkham Knight, have you seen Assassins Creed Unity ?
 
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Phinnway

Rookie
#5
May 10, 2015
thehotsung8701 said:
Clearly, no developers will ever support true PC quality graphics.
Click to expand...
Well, there is Arma III, Kingdom Come Deliverance, and Star Citizen

Personally, I've always thought graphics aren't as important as art-style. A game with a good art-style can look better than a much more technically proficient game with a bad art-style. It's what you do with the graphics that matters.
 
Last edited: May 10, 2015
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braindancer12

Rookie
#6
May 10, 2015
tahirahmed said:


Click to expand...
 
Gilrond-i-Virdan

Gilrond-i-Virdan

Forum veteran
#7
May 10, 2015
As others said, it's art that matters most, not graphics.
 
eskiMoe

eskiMoe

Mentor
#8
May 10, 2015
Yup. Forget about what I said. Need to improve my reading comprehension skills. ::)

 
Last edited: May 10, 2015
sidspyker

sidspyker

Ex-moderator
#9
May 11, 2015
Bitter responses for such a bitter OP, you've been warned.

thehotsung8701 said:
What is the point of ever buying the top of the line graphic card? Clearly, no developers will ever support true PC quality graphics.
Click to expand...
Then don't? Nobody asked you to, get an x50 or x60(Nvidia) or whatever AMD equivalents there are with the new numbering scheme. I will buy hardware I deem fit for my needs. I prefer my own options depending on my preferences, my own bruteforced AA methods or AO methods or resolution or [whatever] as I like.

"True PC quality graphics"
:facepalm:
There is no such thing, do you buy a Ferrari first and then complain about the roads? You seem to overestimate GPUs which are at the end of the day just cheap rasterization hardware and that only goes so far. Anything that's exceptionally good quality - ray tracing/ray marching is very taxing and used very sparingly(Ambient occlusion, Reflections). Another point is - You can buy really expensive hardware but if it's limited by software API(DirectX11 currently) then what are you getting at? You're wasting resources doing the same work that can easily be done with lesser hardware by simply having better software and scheduling but I digress.

This whole 'oppression' complex the 'Master Race' seems to have developed is just ridiculous along with the hiveminded thinking, people with hardware beefy enough to handle something really STRONG is a very small number. SLI/Crossfire is a mess and inefficient at what it should be doing. I would suggest actually LEARNING a few things about how current hardware works, how software works and how real-time rendering works instead of relying on reminiscence by so called 'hardcore PC gamers' on the internet be it reddit, /v/ or SonyGAF. It goes a long way to KNOW how things work instead of bickering about 'something I heard from someone on the internet'

I think this is a serious question. PC graphic has not improve dramatically in the past decade. My Radeon HD 5850 can still run most game on medium to high. Ultra setting does look better but not that better, and certainly not 7 years worth better.
Click to expand...
What utter nonsense!

So you think Doom 3 looks the same as any other game right now? Are we still using hard black Stencil shadows? Are we still using forward rendering? Are we not moving to physically based rendering now? Are we still using primitive physics effects? Are we still using static background/backdrops instead of rendering in 3D? Are we still using sprites for everything? Are we not slowly using more and more volumetric effects? Sounds to me more like you're looking in the wrong places.

What about framerate? If you think the performance difference between 30-60-120 is small you'd be horribly mistaken.

You want to go back to the era where there was ridiculous rendering API fragmentation along with certain APIs only working on certain brand of GPUs? PhysX PPUs? Change your GPU every year? Buy specific hardware to run specific games? Be my guest, keep me out of it, I have been playing PC all my life and will continue to do so, the last thing I want is even more fragmentation that will kill the platform.

We PC gamers all crave to someday have graphics that is so realistic it look exactly like real life.
Click to expand...
Speak for yourself. Boring looking games is the last thing I want and artists know this very well.

If CDPR let us down, what hope is there for PC gamers?
Click to expand...
There is no hope for PC Gamers who live in the fantasy land where they all have exceptionally great hardware and provide a huge market that the devs will care about and believe realtime graphics are going to reach actual CGI levels anytime soon. None.

Things like Star Citizen are huge exceptions that somehow collected millions and millions of dollars from the crowd all because of Chris Roberts and when it's done your hardware won't be able to run it for many many many many years at an acceptable framerate. Good luck with that, you'll need it and a LOT of cash. Meanwhile the rest of the companies will continue to do business and create more entertainment products that can actually work on current hardware. You want dreamy graphics that your system won't be able to run for the next 5 years? Crowdfund it yourself, you expect that from AAA games made with investor money? You have some seriously unrealistic expectations.

I still fail to see how CDPR has anything to do with this. Witcher games have always been an artistic marvel, not a technical marvel, that crown belongs to Crytek. Witcher 2 again was an ARTISTIC feat, it had no "exceptional" technology. They did not invent something that has now become an industry standard or something that was really ahead of its time except the art pipeline, which should get credit where it's due. For comparison - Crysis 2 invented Screen Space Reflections which we now use and love.
 
Last edited: May 11, 2015
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soldiergeralt

Forum veteran
#10
May 11, 2015
sidspyker said:
Boring looking games is the last thing I want and artists know this very well.
Click to expand...
good thing those "artists" aren't working on kingdom come deliverance, otherwise it'd be yet another "stylized" smudge fest

pc master race is here:
http://i.imgur.com/JFTxKPq.jpg
 
Gilrond-i-Virdan

Gilrond-i-Virdan

Forum veteran
#11
May 11, 2015
soldiergeralt said:
good thing those "artists" aren't working on kingdom come deliverance, otherwise it'd be yet another "stylized" smudge fest

pc master race is here:
http://i.imgur.com/JFTxKPq.jpg
Click to expand...
It's really great that publishers ignored the project and it was crowdfunded. So Linux DRM-free release is in the pipeline :) I just hope it won't become a vaporware story.
 
O

octavian123

Forum veteran
#12
May 11, 2015
Gilrond-i-Virdan said:
As others said, it's art that matters most, not graphics.
Click to expand...
It depends. Graphics need to be advanced enough so that the artists are not held back by technology. You can't have a great art style on Atari 2600 graphics. I think we have gotten to the point where graphics are "good enough" and let the artists do whatever they want. Take Crysis 3 and Wolfenstein TNO for instance. The first is very graphically advanced but is frankly quite boring. The second doesn't look as good but has a very interesting looking world and has amazing weapons. A game like the new Wolfensteins would not have been possible on 2001 era hardware.

If games stopped getting better looking than The Witcher 3, Battlefield 4, Dragon Age or Crysis I wouldn't care all that much.
 
V

volsung

Forum veteran
#13
May 11, 2015
If you ask me, I think video game graphics have become good enough for developers to start improving *other* aspects of games. Gameplay and mechanics for instance. I truly think we have the technology to realize most creative visions and games are now a vehicle for artistic expression. Photorealism is not an end of its own, it's completely pointless if there is no actual worthwhile content to present.

But apart from that, I think you're insane if you think games haven't improved graphically in the last few years. Maybe not if you just look at screenshots, but like others said, animations, lighting, shadows, textures and materials have improved wildly. We rarely see body parts disconnecting nowadays and there's lots of detail in key aspects such as facial animation and flexible or breakable objects, including fabric and hair. Physics simulation also plays a big role in many modern games. All of these things, which normally do not contribute to photo realism in an isolated screenshot, improve the game's graphics and require LOADS of processing power.

It is true that many traditional "PC" game genres, such as adventure, turn based strategy or cRPG do not normally feature top of the line graphics. So if you only play these (an actual reason to be a PC gamer by the way), sure, you may not "need" a top tier GPU. But FPS is also as much a PC genre as the above and it has been the one genre known for pushing the capabilities of graphics cards for many hardware generations.

Last thing I'm going to say is: people play on the PC because PC games are awesome and unique (specially including "indie" and non-AAA games). Even if you can push a game's graphics to the maximum, you don't *need* such an expensive system to enjoy PC games. So if you think the games/settings you play don't justify having a $600 GPU or a multi card setup, then don't buy it. That's all.
 
Last edited: May 11, 2015
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Gilrond-i-Virdan

Gilrond-i-Virdan

Forum veteran
#14
May 11, 2015
The skill of the artists is shown when they use existing tools to create great art. That was always true. So one can't say that tools aren't good enough for great art. Tools always can improve and will improve. It didn't stop great art in the past from being created.
 
sidspyker

sidspyker

Ex-moderator
#15
May 11, 2015
Volsung said it well, we've reached a reasonable point where most things look good to your average joe and certain hard problems for very basic things have been tackled, like reflections. Screen Space Reflections? It's a simplified version of what Pixar use! I'm sure in 10 years time we'll look back and notice that even statements such as this about 'reasonable level' aren't accurate because by then a lot will have changed, in smaller steps but adding up.

EDIT: It is also impotant to note that design of certain games also affects visual choice naturally, a game with very fast motion, like say Project Cars can get away with certain things a game where you control a character slowly moving in the world wouldn't.

soldiergeralt said:
good thing those "artists" aren't working on kingdom come deliverance, otherwise it'd be yet another "stylized" smudge fest

pc master race is here:
http://i.imgur.com/JFTxKPq.jpg
Click to expand...
You make it sound like stylizing something is bad now. It's also not a 'fair' comparison for a crowdfunded game vs a commercial game with tied money and I don't see why "PC Master Race" is here for a game that's going to be on consoles as well.

And yet IT IS stylized and doesn't look like like life, clearly these "artists" as you put it, ARE actually working on KCD. You look at it and you can easily tell it's rendered, none of KCD's screenies look 'exactly like real life' and this isn't criticsm or a bad thing. One of the primary reasons being regular real-time rendering flaws you'll quickly spot flaws if you try to mimic actual photorealism. "Hmm that reflection looks wrong", "that's not how shadows work" plus it's CryEngine3 so prebaked lighting most likely, same as Unreal Engine 4. If we had SVOGI on the other hand that actually WORKED for a commercial title then that'd be something but prebaked? What's new about that, you can create amazing looking stuff that's prebaked but rendering something in real time on par with that, that is a challenge.

The other part I didn't really want to mention because it's highly subjective is that 'real' looking visuals can arguable also drive mechanics in that way. "No this looks too videogamey, we need something REALISTIC and IMMERSIVE". I find that to be a boneheaded approach that'll run things into the ground, any designer worth his salt will tell you that REALISM is never a good goal, BELIEVABILITY is. But that's just going offtopic so I'll drop this.
 
Last edited: May 11, 2015
S

ShoMee

Senior user
#16
May 11, 2015
sidspyker said:
This whole 'oppression' complex the 'Master Race' seems to have developed is just ridiculous along with the hiveminded thinking, people with hardware beefy enough to handle something really STRONG is a very small number. SLI/Crossfire is a mess and inefficient at what it should be doing. I would suggest actually LEARNING a few things about how current hardware works, how software works and how real-time rendering works instead of relying on reminiscence by so called 'hardcore PC gamers' on the internet be it reddit, /v/ or SonyGAF. It goes a long way to KNOW how things work instead of bickering about 'something I heard from someone on the internet'
Click to expand...
This paragraph is spot on. Well said, Sid. :hatsoff:
 
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P1ckleJ4r

Rookie
#17
May 15, 2015
I'll just leave this here.

 
Sardukhar

Sardukhar

Moderator
#18
May 15, 2015
<leans in>

Everything fine? All calm?

No...




Good, good.
 
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