Jobs Support Register

Greatsword win rate now 57.6%

+

Jeydra

Junior Member
#1
Check it out: https://gwentup.com/report/18/21. At 3600+ MMR, Crach decks are 52.9% to include Greatsword and win 57.6% of the time.

This win rate is above Eithne/Brouver during the Dwarves meta. I find it pretty depressing. The deck is both a powerful engine deck and has powerful win conditions. You can "sort of" tech against Greatswords but it's really hard: any hard removal they have resurrects, Muzzle can be counter-Muzzled, Artefact Compression is embarrassing against any non-Greatsword non-Consume deck, and so on.

CDPR, can you guys nerf GS before Homecoming? I hate to be asking for nerfs in what is supposed to be a stable meta, but that 57.6% win rate is staggering.
 

mert41994

User
#2
Greatswords are really great for now, it's crystal clear. But i don't see any reason to nerf them. Playing Eithne against them is really helpful. Artefact Compression is the key. You can compress 2 greatsword. Most likely, you have Alzur's Thunder to destroy ships. If we're talking about last Greatsword, you have Scorch solution for that. If you can use your Dol Blathanna Archers wisely, you most likely get 2-3 targets with scorch. This situation most likely not an option. Really low chance to find all resources.
 

Jeydra

Junior Member
#3
Greatswords are really great for now, it's crystal clear. But i don't see any reason to nerf them. Playing Eithne against them is really helpful. Artefact Compression is the key. You can compress 2 greatsword. Most likely, you have Alzur's Thunder to destroy ships. If we're talking about last Greatsword, you have Scorch solution for that. If you can use your Dol Blathanna Archers wisely, you most likely get 2-3 targets with scorch. This situation most likely not an option. Really low chance to find all resources.
Eithne usage statistics:

Artefact Compression: 61.7%
Scorch: 51.1%
Alzur's Thunder: 40.6%

Eithne vs. Crach overall: 43.3% (1065 samples)

For a deck that supposedly slaughters Greatswords, Eithne sure loses a lot to Crach.
 

4RM3D

Moderator
#4
For a deck that supposedly slaughters Greatswords, Eithne sure loses a lot to Crach.
Eithne requires some more thought (to play against Craitesword). Having a decent hand you should be able to win most matches. But alas, not all players know how to properly deal with the situation.
 

mli_dragon

Poser
#5
[QUOTE="
Eithne vs. Crach overall: 43.3% (1065 samples)

For a deck that supposedly slaughters Greatswords, Eithne sure loses a lot to Crach.[/QUOTE]

I believe that overall statistics is a combination of Veterans and GS. While Eithne has all the tools to properly hinder a GS deck but not so much to a veteran deck. Artifact Compression and Mandrake are useless to a veteran deck and it isn't that difficult to play around scorch as long as you pay attention to the sequencing of your cards.

I knew the popularity, as well as winrate for GS and Veterans, will be increased since the patch nerfed all of their competitions. The data isn't surprising.
 

nedders

Junior Member
#6
I lose far less against GS than I do against Nekkers.

I run a deck on ST with movers and thunder. Can produce Thunder 4 times, move cards a number of times around the board and also set traps/weather. At least against GS there's no card producing two more GS's in the deck (I'm looking at you, Nekker Meta)

It's such an easy fix as well - GS should only BOOST not STRENGTHEN. I can't even imagine how simple that would be to sort out.
 

Esmer

Junior Member
#7
Artefact Compression is embarrassing against any non-Greatsword non-Consume deck, and so on.
Artefact compression is good against alchemy (deny resurrecting witchers), NG handbuff (spotters or even Golem/Knight/Assyre/Mantikore), deathwish Dagon (Dao), Henselt (Ronvid), mulligan ST (15+ points officer), Harald decks (axemen, Derran). In the worst case you compress your own spy for 11 points.

Why do you think Coral is in every SK deck?
 
Last edited:

4RM3D

Moderator
#8
It's such an easy fix as well - GS should only BOOST not STRENGTHEN. I can't even imagine how simple that would be to sort out.
This is not a fix, but rather the final nail in the coffin. Let's not nerf yet another archetype into oblivion. Incidentally, this also makes Mahakam Marauder much better.
 

time_drainer

Junior Member
#9
I think it was a mistake not to nerf Greatswords (the deck not necessarily the card, although...) when they nerfed Brouver and Henselt decks. We'd possibly have now the best meta since Midwinter by far.

Alas I don't think it's gonna happen now, so there's nothing more than waiting for Homecoming, where majority of the cards is gonna change anyway, so most probably we won't have any of the current problems with the game. (Sure, we'll probably have some new ones, but that's another story. :))

UPDATE: also I think it's gonna be worth waiting another meta report, as season start and 3600+ as highest tier is not always very accurate regarding the true power levels.
 

devivre

Moderator
#10
One way I see to nerf that type of deck without killing it or changing it too much, is to give Dimun C. und Longships slightly less base power. It's only a small tweak but I don't see many ways to change Greatswords without harming to archetype too much.

Anyhow, I doubt we'll see a change before Homecoming.
 

Jeydra

Junior Member
#11
I believe that overall statistics is a combination of Veterans and GS. While Eithne has all the tools to properly hinder a GS deck but not so much to a veteran deck. Artifact Compression and Mandrake are useless to a veteran deck and it isn't that difficult to play around scorch as long as you pay attention to the sequencing of your cards.
That's the fundamental problem: you can play hate against Greatswords, but they're bad against other decks. If you have too many copies of Artefact Compression Mandrake etc, you might beat Greatswords but you'll lose against the rest of the field. Veterans is an example of these "other decks". It's conceivable that a teched out Eithne deck squashes Greatsword, but the overall win rate vs. Crach is an example of how bad the deck is.

Artefact compression is good against alchemy (deny resurrecting witchers), NG handbuff (spotters or even Golem/Knight/Assyre/Mantikore), deathwish Dagon (Dao), Henselt (Ronvid), mulligan ST (15+ points officer), Harald decks (axemen, Derran). In the worst case you compress your own spy for 11 points.

Why do you think Coral is in every SK deck?
Against all the decks you mentioned the only deck that Artefact Compression is actually good against is NG Handbuff. Look carefully at what Compression does against the other decks:

Alchemy: 3 points (!), you don't even deny Viper Witchers because they have three of them, plus even if you deny them they can still resurrect Vicovaro Novices which are almost as good.
Dagon: 4 points, and ditto. They have more than one Dao, and even if you deny all their Daos, they still have Archespores so their Griffins etc aren't terrible.
Henselt: Ronvid is great but not essential to Henselt; they have lots of crewmen.
Compressing your own spy: what if you didn't draw spy / mulliganed into Artefact Compression in a short round 3 / etc?

Remember you are playing a silver card, and silvers are expected to hit 13-15 points without too much trouble (e.g. Ida, Jotunn, Ronvid). Coral is in every SK deck because it is not Artefact Compression. It's a 5-point body on top of Artefact Compression. Mulliganing into Coral in a short round 3 is usually not bad. Mulliganing into Compression can lose you the game.

UPDATE: also I think it's gonna be worth waiting another meta report, as season start and 3600+ as highest tier is not always very accurate regarding the true power levels.
Crach has been dominant in the other two meta reports too.

https://gwentup.com/report/18/20 - 3900+, Crach 53.7% win rate, GS 55.3% win rate
https://gwentup.com/report/18/19 - 3900+, Crach 54.4% win rate, GS 54.5% win rate

---
Maybe make Light Longships no longer Dimun units and so not be summonable by Pirate Captain.
 

el_Bosco

Junior Member
#13
Again this was predicted by the community and CDPR was extensively warned about it.

Still, GS remained untouched. Its like they're doing it on purpose.
 

time_drainer

Junior Member
#14
Crach has been dominant in the other two meta reports too.

https://gwentup.com/report/18/20 - 3900+, Crach 53.7% win rate, GS 55.3% win rate
https://gwentup.com/report/18/19 - 3900+, Crach 54.4% win rate, GS 54.5% win rate
That's true, and while the meta was far from settled back then (I think it still isn't), I expect something similar from Crach on longer term. 57.6% seems a bit exaggerated and for now I consider it an outlier.

As for specific suggestions I collected some just before the Swap update, that I think wouldn't kill the archetype. Just for reference in case someone interested: https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?threads/make-greatswords-less-great.10951991/

But again, I don't think we'll have any changes before Homecoming.

Again this was predicted by the community and CDPR was extensively warned about it.

Still, GS remained untouched. Its like they're doing it on purpose.
To be fair, there were rivers of cry about Brouver since the Cleaver combo emerged. I've seen the same amount of outcries against Henselt's Winch and Dun Banners since I can remember.
In comparison sure, there were some complains about Greatswords as well, but I've seen way less. Probably because the deck doesn't rely on one or two completely broken combos, but several less broken ones. :)
I think Greatswords didn't get the amount of hate from the community back then as they deserved. This may or may not have been a factor of why they were left untouched.
 

Esmer

Junior Member
#15
Look carefully at what Compression does against the other decks:

Alchemy: 3 points (!), you don't even deny Viper Witchers because they have three of them, plus even if you deny them they can still resurrect Vicovaro Novices which are almost as good.
Dagon: 4 points, and ditto. They have more than one Dao, and even if you deny all their Daos, they still have Archespores so their Griffins etc aren't terrible.
Henselt: Ronvid is great but not essential to Henselt; they have lots of crewmen.
Compressing your own spy: what if you didn't draw spy / mulliganed into Artefact Compression in a short round 3 / etc?

Remember you are playing a silver card, and silvers are expected to hit 13-15 points without too much trouble
If you think the game is solely about points, feel free using only silvers that give you 13-15 points, what's the problem?

I personally lost against GS as alchemy going second because my opponent muzzled the first witcher, compressed the second, and you rarely draw all 3 of them, especially in the first round.
 

Jeydra

Junior Member
#16
A few more ideas on how to nerf GS slightly:

1) Make units ressed by Priestess of Freya doomed - would make removal a lot more powerful against them. They can still resurrect the GS who would still be good in a long round, but it wouldn't function as carryover anymore.
2) Make GS reset every 3 rounds instead of 2 (possibly with +3 instead of +2 to compensate) - this lets decks relying on weaker control options like weather kill the GS. It also lets you e.g. toss a Dao with Cyclops and kill the GS, which is much more effective than tossing Dagon.

Again this was predicted by the community and CDPR was extensively warned about it.

Still, GS remained untouched. Its like they're doing it on purpose.
I think there was a reasonable argument that GS is a deck you can hate out. Cards like Miruna, Alzur's Thunder, Muzzle - they're all effective against GS. So there was a reasonable argument that the metagame will adapt to counter GS, keeping the deck in check. However after three meta reports with GS dominating all of them, I'd also say that this argument has been proven wrong.

If you think the game is solely about points, feel free using only silvers that give you 13-15 points, what's the problem?

I personally lost against GS as alchemy going second because my opponent muzzled the first witcher, compressed the second, and you rarely draw all 3 of them, especially in the first round.
The game is not quite solely about points but it is mostly about points. The side that has more points wins the round. And: I use silvers that are worth 13-15+ points, and sometimes it doesn't work because they still generate more points. A card like Abaya for example can be worth 16, yet it is usually not worth 16 against GS. And remember AC is competing against a more powerful card with the same function - Scorch - and it is the inferior card in most matchups.

In your example you've already played two Witchers so you should already have killed two Greatswords. Also, your 2nd Witcher wasn't compressed, it was Coral'ed. Coral is NOT Artefact Compression. As I argued above, in a short 3rd round, Coral is actively great and Artefact Compression is actively bad. If both you and your opponent are topdecking in round 3, drawing AC will lose you the game; Coral has a great chance of winning (as long as opponent doesn't have any golds left). Coral is a good card, AC much less so.

Also Alchemy runs enough thinning that not drawing the 3rd Viper Witcher is rare.
 

Esmer

Junior Member
#17
In your example you've already played two Witchers so you should already have killed two Greatswords. Also, your 2nd Witcher wasn't compressed, it was Coral'ed. Coral is NOT Artefact Compression. As I argued above, in a short 3rd round, Coral is actively great and Artefact Compression is actively bad. If both you and your opponent are topdecking in round 3, drawing AC will lose you the game; Coral has a great chance of winning (as long as opponent doesn't have any golds left). Coral is a good card, AC much less so.

Also Alchemy runs enough thinning that not drawing the 3rd Viper Witcher is rare.
Gwent is all about bleeding your opponent in R2 (including drypassing when you don't have a spy), so it's very rare to be in topdeck mode in R3. Unless, of course, you are sure the last card your opponent is holding will win him the game, and your chances are higher if you both topdeck.

Moreover, there are many cards that are bad in R3, and AC is just another spell without a body on that list. Finally, there are a lot of ways you can tutor AC (and other tech cards) from your deck, so drawing it in R3 is hardly an issue.

Anyway, I agree that AC is not a universally good card to include, but for another reason: each faction has so many great silvers (some of those are archetype defining), that you rarely have an option to run AC in your deck.
 

minti043

Junior Member
#18
Hahaha. I have to agree that at first i thought this deck to be a pure annoyance. Later on i learned its weaknesses and i teched againts it. I had great success with all variants of decks where i just included few diemetrium shackles. But i have to agree that this deck is a power house and it will hurt the game a bit at later stages when new deck archetypes appear. I think it should be a noob friendly deck that most people should have. But the whole meta is hardly teching againts this type of deck. All those cards that are effective againts this deck are a must in your deckbuilding and its kinda frustrating. Especially with people who don't know the game and are not good at deckbuilding. For them its like OMG WTF did i do to deserve this.
In order not to get nurfed there should be some sort of thread that will give people hints on how to counter the deck its not that hard. All you need to do is have enough removal for the greatswords. And by removal i don't mean just few thunders, that will not work. You need muzzle (its hard to draw it but its effective, some grave removing cards work amazing too although they are clan speciffic and if you run different faction decks you need to spend lots of dust. Yenefer necro is the neutral choice but sacrificing a gold slot is not that great. Locking is the most effective way to deal with them and you can always use the fact that they have some 1 powered revival units in their starting hand that will do nothing if they don't have anything to revive Oh if they play greatword with their leader thats 10 powered greatsword and when the boat hits the board they both become 9 power and than you can get great value out of scorch. The fact that if they are left unchecked they can revive some 16-20+ units is very overpowered and the fact that this deck counters any weather deck due to the healing of those bastards makes it very powerfull. i think that if the healing of the greatswords gets nurfed it would be great. And the nurf on imlerith: sabath made him super unwanted card from a monster favorite card to measly 5 powered gold card.
 
Last edited:

Jeydra

Junior Member
#19
Gwent is all about bleeding your opponent in R2 (including drypassing when you don't have a spy), so it's very rare to be in topdeck mode in R3. Unless, of course, you are sure the last card your opponent is holding will win him the game, and your chances are higher if you both topdeck.

Moreover, there are many cards that are bad in R3, and AC is just another spell without a body on that list. Finally, there are a lot of ways you can tutor AC (and other tech cards) from your deck, so drawing it in R3 is hardly an issue.

Anyway, I agree that AC is not a universally good card to include, but for another reason: each faction has so many great silvers (some of those are archetype defining), that you rarely have an option to run AC in your deck.
Gwent is not about bleeding your opponent in R2. There are plenty of decks that will drypass round 2 if they win round 1. And if it is about bleeding opponents in R2, then you would be in topdeck mode in R3, or you might be in a 2-card round 3, when again AC is actively bad (and Coral isn't).

AC is not just another spell without a body. AC is -2 points. Alzur's Thunder for example can still conceivably be worth even points.

How do you tutor AC? Offhand I can only think of one way (Isengrim: Outlaw) which is a faction-specific card too.

Hahaha. I have to agree that at first i thought this deck to be a pure annoyance. Later on i learned its weaknesses and i teched againts it. I had great success with all variants of decks where i just included few diemetrium shackles. But i have to agree that this deck is a power house and it will hurt the game a bit at later stages when new deck archetypes appear. I think it should be a noob friendly deck that most people should have. But the whole meta is hardly teching againts this type of deck. All those cards that are effective againts this deck are a must in your deckbuilding and its kinda frustrating. Especially with people who don't know the game and are not good at deckbuilding. For them its like OMG WTF did i do to deserve this.
Where do these ideas keep coming from? Dimeritium Shackles?! That card is unplayably bad. It's even worse than Artefact Compression most of the time. So like yeah you play this card and beat GS, well done. What is this card going to do against Dagon Moonlight? NG Handbuff? Alchemy? Brouver swap? Same goes for Yenn: Necromancer. The only card you mentioned that works is Muzzle (and Alzur's Thunder I guess) which works, just don't forget they can Muzzle back.
 

minti043

Junior Member
#20
Gwent is not about bleeding your opponent in R2. There are plenty of decks that will drypass round 2 if they win round 1. And if it is about bleeding opponents in R2, then you would be in topdeck mode in R3, or you might be in a 2-card round 3, when again AC is actively bad (and Coral isn't).

AC is not just another spell without a body. AC is -2 points. Alzur's Thunder for example can still conceivably be worth even points.

How do you tutor AC? Offhand I can only think of one way (Isengrim: Outlaw) which is a faction-specific card too.



Where do these ideas keep coming from? Dimeritium Shackles?! That card is unplayably bad. It's even worse than Artefact Compression most of the time. So like yeah you play this card and beat GS, well done. What is this card going to do against Dagon Moonlight? NG Handbuff? Alchemy? Brouver swap? Same goes for Yenn: Necromancer. The only card you mentioned that works is Muzzle (and Alzur's Thunder I guess) which works, just don't forget they can Muzzle back.
Well this month the silver lock cards in every faction are fery "fashionable".Lock is the most usefull removal:
Againts fog cards you can lock: the Arachespore thus making you oponents 7 powered creature that grows by one power every turn into a 3 powered card that does not deal 4 dmg to you like when you remove it with thunderbolt. You can lock Imlerith sabath turning your oponents GOLDEN card into 3 powered card :D
you can lock Barbegazi or D'ao thus preventing 8 powered creatures appearing from griffins and if D'ao does not go to the grave slyzards cant spawn another from your oponents deck thus giving your oponents a 2 power creature turn.
Againts Spydecks you can lock False ciri this gaining not only card advantage but a preeety fat stats since she gets boosted every turn.
Againts hand buffing cards you can lock Vrihedd Dragoon and farseers.You can also lock ambush cards if they have any of them.
Againts alchemy you can lock Dol blathana sentry since people don't expect it that much from all archetypes its only a bronze card and i mentioned it as BUDGET alternative if you lack the silver lockers.
Againts Brover swap its not that usefull, But hey you can always mulligan it :DD when you see you are playing agaitns it :DD. And No removal works good againts that deck not becouse the card sucks. And the brouver swap lacks total power points and is weak to weather so WHO THE HELL PLAYS THAT DECK IN THE HIGHER ELO its a simple troop boost deck that exept weaker than other troop booster achtypes is weak againts weather ( and from what i see the weather monsters is still a top deck and dagon is the top monster leader ).
And the most powerfull deck this season seems to be ciri nothern realm armor so you will get to use this for plenty of cards there denying plenty of fat boosts.
 
Last edited: