Group combat completely turns me off to TW2

[Corylea.723]

As I completely understand where you're coming from and how RPGs were different back in the day, I cannot fully agree with an assumption that combat in a game like TW2 is about dexterity not "brains".

TW2 isn't a black-and-white case; appropriately enough for the Witcher world, it's gray. As you pointed out a few posts ago, TW2 is a blend of twitch-based combat and tactics. To me, adding the twitch to the tactics detracts from the combat; to you, it adds to it. Different people like different things.

But I'm not arguing that TW2 is all twitch, not at all. I doubt that Zanderat is, either, but I don't speak for him.

I'm saying to the degree that TW2 is twitch-based, I dislike it. I recognize that tactics are in there; I just wish the balance was tilted more towards the tactics and less towards the twitch.

When people discuss things on the internet, they're often seen as espousing the most extreme possible version of their position. I'm not sure why that is. But no one's saying "TW2 is all twitch all the time with no tactics involved." There's no need to explain how that position is untrue, because nobody believes that.

 

[gregski]

TW2 isn't a black-and-white case; appropriately enough for the Witcher world, it's gray. As you pointed out a few posts ago, TW2 is a blend of twitch-based combat and tactics. To me, adding the twitch to the tactics detracts from the combat; to you, it adds to it. Different people like different things.

But I'm not arguing that TW2 is all twitch, not at all. I doubt that Zanderat is, either, but I don't speak for him.

I'm saying to the degree that TW2 is twitch-based, I dislike it. I recognize that tactics are in there; I just wish the balance was tilted more towards the tactics and less towards the twitch.

When people discuss things on the internet, they're often seen as espousing the most extreme possible version of their position. I'm not sure why that is. But no one's saying "TW2 is all twitch all the time with no tactics involved." There's no need to explain how that position is untrue, because nobody believes that.

Thanks I probably misinterpreted what you said, it sounded to me like you opposed tactical combat to twitch combat, with the latter being represented by TW2.

 

[CostinRaz]

Corylea: My argument was never about what people find interesting on a personal level or not, since in that case it's worthless to argue, but rather over an objective view of what games are MORE challenging vs those that are not. TW1 was easy, DA:O was pathetic and Dark Souls and TW2 are not on multiple runs, these are facts.

Also you are pretty much calling everyone who enjoys a twitch game a brain dead moron. There are tactics and strategy employed in every single twitch game you might name, even shooters.

 

[Corylea.723]

Corylea: My argument was never about what people find interesting on a personal level or not, since in that case it's worthless to argue, but rather over an objective view of what games are MORE challenging vs those that are not. TW1 was easy, DA:O was pathetic and Dark Souls and TW2 are not on multiple runs, these are facts.

No, they're not facts; they're your opinions, exactly as much as the things I've said are my opinions.

Also you are pretty much calling everyone who enjoys a twitch game a brain dead moron. There are tactics and strategy employed in every single twitch game you might name, even shooters.

I never said that, nor meant it. I'm not responsible for what you choose to read into my words, but only for what I've actually said.

 

[CostinRaz]

No, they're not facts; they're your opinions, just as much as the things I've said are my opinions.

Most people find TW2 and Dark Souls very challenging while DA:O and TW1 are considered easy, those are the facts or do you care to deny it? I've made my objective argument why Dark Souls and TW2 are more challenging on repeated runs: Because they are unpredictable due to the "twitch" mechanics whereas with DA:O you have a certainty in the enemies you fight, where you fight them and how you make the best strategy to win. Once you figure out the best build for your characters and the best party setup the game is pathetically easy. You can figure out the best build for Geralt in terms of gear, stats, talents and so on in TW1 but you can still be killed easily even so. Dark Souls works the same as TW2 from that perspective and it was both games are superior in the challenge they offer.

I never said that, nor meant it. I'm not responsible for what you choose to read in to my words, but only for what I've actually said.

Really? By saying that twitch games are about dexterity and not using your mind tell me exactly what are you implying? That we are not using our brains in "twitch" games. Yes I find that pretty much as saying that "twitch" gamers are brain dead because they don't use their mind when they play and quite frankly very insulting: I have played games for over 15 years of every single type: Strategy, Shooters, RPGs, action and so on and I find this opinion complete BS.

 

[Corylea.723]

Most people find TW2 and Dark Souls very challenging while DA:O and TW1 are considered easy, those are the facts or do you care to deny it?

You didn't say they were easy; you said they were pathetic. "Pathetic" is a value judgement about the game as a whole, saying that there was nothing worthwhile about the entire game. Either you misspoke, or you judge a game solely on the level of challenge.

In any case, I see no need to discuss this with you further; your tone is too hostile for me to want to interact with you.

 

[CostinRaz]

I said they were pathetic on a challenge level, I see no difference between that a game being easy. As for how I judge a game, I judge it not by it's challenge level but rather how it makes a game fun while also very challenging. A game can't be fun if you are bored because you are slaughtering everything in your path, which is exactly what happens in DA:O after you learn the builds.

Furthermore this thread has been about the challenge of TW2 vs TW1 specifically.

As for my hostile tone, pardon me if I call you out when you claim that people don't use their mind and instead their dexterity when playing twitch games, which is exactly what you've said and I find the notion very insulting since "twitch" games DO force you to use strategy and tactics. Starcraft and Warcraft are very fast paced games where your reflexes do count quite a bit but if you don't use sound strategy and sound tactics, if you don't properly analyze the situation you will lose regardless of how good your "twitch" skills are.

So yes, maybe I exaggerated when I said you called people brain dead morons and I apologize for that but fast paced games DO INVOLVE thinking and not just reflexes and yes I find them superior to a game where you don't need reflexes and only strategy.

 

[Zanderat]

Tell us how you really feel, Costin.

I wasn't implying twitch based games weren't fun or don't require tactics. Of course they do. But, it's not what I look for in a RPG. As for old school RPG's not being challenging, try Wizardry 8 on anything but easy level. Then come back and tell us how easy it was.................

 

[CostinRaz]

You want to bring the old school argument up then? Try Duke Nukem 3D on it's highest difficulty and see how you fare. It can work both ways in that regard. Certainly the are many old games that are vastly harder then modern ones.

The question I do have is whether or not a game like Wizardry can be more challenging then a game like TW2 on multiple repeated runs after the proper builds have been figured out.

 

[not_slimgrin]

TW2 is an action RPG. Making it old school, character-based would be taking the game in a very different direction. I'm also a fan of combining twitch and tactics. Last night playing in arena I discovered ( a bit late, I'm embarrassed to say ) how useful the perks in the alchemy tree can be, and I finally realized how powerful potions like Brock are supposed to be used. The overall system in TW2 is very well thought out, but the player has to do some digging, some experimenting. That said, I do agree we need better group control earlier in the game. At level 35 however, with whirl and Aard maxed, I'm bulldozing through foes and it's fun as hell.

 

[Zanderat]

I would say Wizardry 8 has excellent re-playability. It was published in 2001 and is still a challenge to the this day. If the vanilla game isn't enough, there is a thriving modding community for it. So, ya. Still challenging.

BTW, your argument that " after the proper builds have been figured out" makes rpg's easy also applies to FPS games. Once the boss patterns have been figured out, they are a piece of cake.

The way I see it, you don't consider using strategy and character development fun. I don't find twitch mechanics fun. It's all good. Differences make the world more interesting.

 

[CostinRaz]

The way I see it, you don't consider using strategy and character development fun.

Or maybe I have played strategy games more then any other genre in gaming, seriously the first game I ever played on my own PC was Dune II. So yes I do have plenty of fun using strategy and development as long as there is a challenge in that. Games like DA:O and KOTOR don't offer me such a thing for instance, nor does TW1.

I don't find a stat based game fun because there is no challenge to them in my eyes once I have figured out how to properly build my character whereas in a game like Duke Nukem 3D or Serious Sam on the highest difficulties you can and will still get stomped easily even when you know the proper strategies. My point was that twitch based games offer a stronger challenge on repeated playthroughs then a stat based game will especially turn-based ones ( I have finished KIng's Bounty on Impossible on my first run....well it wasn't really impossible was it now? )

You know what though? I'll take you up on that challenge and play Wizardry 8 just for the hell of it ( with Dark Souls finished I am itching for another challenge ).

 

[Garrison72]

You should go with Hard Reset if you want a fun challenge Costin.

 

[CostinRaz]

Oh but I have Slim, since I was interesting to see what they had to offer Interesting game I'd say.

 

[Zanderat]

You know what though? I'll take you up on that challenge and play Wizardry 8 just for the hell of it ( with Dark Souls finished I am itching for another challenge ).

Cool. Since you consider yourself the supreme RPG master, I suggest Iron Man mode on Hard. If you make it to Arnika in one piece, I will be most surprised and impressed.

 

[Sirnaq]

Honestly? Tw1 was easy because it was easy to exploit the combat. In tw1 you have infinite igni spam that kills everything. In tw2 you have roll and quen, quen was kinda fixed, roll should be linked to vigor like parry. What i would like to see in tw3 is more bossfights like operator - it was easily the best designed bossfight in tw2 and it was optional... And more balance, it was kinda there in arena mode. What was wrong in tw2 gameplay is that it's challenging at begging and challenge (except operator fight)is gone for the rest of the game because geralt is too tough.They should make everything past chapter 1 way tougher to keep up with character progression.

Kayran: unnecessary qte, too scripted (I know you tried to make it epic)4/10
Endryaga queens: kinda there, too bad they where easily hitlocked if you spammed them on the back, make them turn around faster so you can hit them twice and that's it also next time fix trap stacking 8/10
Letho: It was ok bossfight for first playthrough but if you figure out aard and 2 heavy attack combo then meh... 7/10
Draug: Too easy, kinda fixed in ee but still too easy 5/10
Operator: as i said already best bossfight in the game 10/10
Dragon: too scripted It feels like you couldn't fight this thing in any other place6/10
second letho fght: Too easy for high end geralt 4/10

Also let's rate normal mobs:
humans (and other humanoids): mostly ok, if you mastered parry and riposte in main game they become trivial (arena encounters were way better balanced), also no tough human enemies, if you fight 1vs 1 you are 100% sure you win, in tw3 put someone like bonhart that could rip your head off and **** down your neck. 7/10

Neckers: nothing to say really, decent enemies in pack 8/10
Endryaga: another decent normal mob 8/10
drowners: in pack really deadly, disable that jump attack, we don't need to roll more 7/10
harpies: waaay to easy, you can just hack and slash through them without thinking 3/10
Rottlings: drowners exploding after death 7/10
golems: golems where decent, little to easy, make them faster 8/10
warewolf: this is really good mob, shame that it appears only once, i would put it in chapter 1 and more of them, that should be fun. 9/10
wrights:all wrights are great both soldiers and ghosts 10/10
draugirs: are ok 8/10
im sure im missing something, first off MORE MONSTERS, bestiary in tw2 is pathetic compared to tw1, where are kikimores? where are ghouls etc.

What i liked in tw1 more than tw2:
Armors, in tw1 you have 3 armors in whole game, it makes more sense than changing your armour every day, just make it like in gothic games, put 8 armors and if you chose some path you get one armor and if you chose anther you get different. Also why can you suddenly carry more than 3 swords, just bring back tw1 system, it was more fun to manage your equipment. Alchemy system, god it was so much better in tw1, first make potions last as long as in tw1 second potion making with alcohol base. Drinking while meditating is ok tho.

 

[CostinRaz]

I think CDPR should just stop trying to pander to people who just want to play their games for the story and make the gameplay deadly and challenging all around with 1 difficulty like Dark Souls. Trying to balance so many difficulty levels just doesn't work I think.

It works well enough on Insane and Dark don't get me wrong about that but the rest? No.

 

[gregski]

roll should be linked to vigor like parry.

That's what I'm thinking too. Just like in Dark Souls, you have a stamina bar(or whatever it's called) and the more you roll, parry and swing your weapons the quicker you run out of it and you're left without options for a while.

On the other hand, Dark Souls is a game designed around combat and it's slower paced there than in TW2. TW2 is designed around the story. So I wonder how putting a complex story - that was already difficult to grasp for some, mostly new to the series - and a ultra-sophisticated combat system with deadly difficulty in one game would actually play out. Could be too much for some people to bear.

 

[CostinRaz]

Of course some people would not play it, but I think we would get a much better quality game if they did.

 

[Garrison72]

I think CDPR should just stop trying to pander to people who just want to play their games for the story and make the gameplay deadly and challenging all around with 1 difficulty like Dark Souls. Trying to balance so many difficulty levels just doesn't work I think.

It works well enough on Insane and Dark don't get me wrong about that but the rest? No.

They could kiss half of their fan base goodbye if they did that. Dark Souls is primarily about the combat, TW2 is about story and world before combat. Besides, I've always been an advocate of multiple difficulty settings. It just makes sense to me.

Also, roll can't be linked to vigor, they already have enough stuff linked to vigor. They need to tweak AI and expand Geralt's defense/dodge options.