Guess: 66% Leader Commitment; 1 Card; 1 Turn; 19 Unconditional Points

[rrc]

Now, if you tell me if there is a leader which can do this, that is committing 66% of the leader ability and playing a single card and can generate 19 points without any "Conditions Applied", I would say it is pretty OP. And if someone tells me that that leader is from a faction that is dead and RIP and all, I would be thoroughly confused. But that is what is happening. No offense to my fellow dear MO players, but please don't keep saying that MO is weak and dead when you have got a top 3 leader season after season, closely competing with SK and even NR.

I know SW with Anseis "can" get more value than this "if there is a tall unit on board". More ever SW is a broken leader and no one is saying NR is dead and RIP. Even Inspired Zeal can get 12 points by playing Seltkirk or Anseis and using only 33% of the charges. Imposter can take a tall unit and kill the opponent's tall unit by playing the Mage by committing 100% of the leader ability. PF can use the leader ability and kill the tallest unit unconditionally, playing 8 points + tall unit removed, committing 100% of the leader ability. There can be more examples (Jackpot + Philippa CAN* play for 21 points with 100% leader commitment).

But every other ability needs a certain build-up and condition to get the value, sometimes just yourself working up to the combo and sometimes expecting the opponent to do somethings. But OH + Detlaff is an unconditional 19 points on board without considering any other potential synergies like thrive. You are never under "I can pass now safely" zone. Every time I play against OH, it is just overwhelming. I am not saying OH should be nerfed. NO. But at least acknowledge that OH is pretty damn OP.

Not just that, when playing against OH, you can't play your engine as first card as it will be Manticored and if it is a 4 power unit, it will be instantly Mirunaed. If you stack a row it will be Werecated. OH forces you to play around a lot of cards and make your general overall game play weaker due to instant DW trigger. And on Red Coin, it can abuse like no other leader can. I don't complaint about needing to play around all these cards. It is part of the game, but calling MO weak is something I am not able to accept it.

Also, if you have one playable leader/deck from a faction, that is all a faction can expect. Even SK, though using different leaders it is all Warriors. ST playing two leaders, but use almost identical low-unit decks. One playable decks/archetype is all we can expect now. And in that, MO has got one of the top OP leader/deck.

 

[Jamborinio]

I think the argument is more about variety and depth of strength in MO. It’s a bit of a one trick pony right now which is boring. Yes you could argue Keltullis is also good, but then it’s really more a neutral based deck than MO.

 

[M3e0w]

It's funny how you call it a neutral deck, but it's defining feature is a faction card xD...
Shupe decks are neutral decks, cause every faction can build a better or worse version of it.

 

[ReaperTek]

I'm kind of surprised that there aren't exactly much complaints about OH currently, especially after the 2 Card's in one turn Leaders rework it feels definitely Overtuned with the ability to instantly trigger the Deathwish Unit's without any chance for the opponent to react.

I guess the skill should at least get a cooldown that you can't just use you're 3 Charges in the final turn on Dettlaf ( I think Deadeye Ambush could maybe use a cooldown too it just feels off if you can just slap 3 Deadeyes on the Board in one turn without any requirement, but that's more in hope if we ever get an overall healthy Meta, with Gwent in it's current state it's not that problematic) or maybe even only once per Round like the Old Unseen Elder skill in the beginning of Hc (if I remember correctly it was trigger a allied unit's Deathwish refresh on round start).

 

[InkognitoXI]

Now, if you tell me if there is a leader which can do this, that is committing 66% of the leader ability and playing a single card and can generate 19 points without any "Conditions Applied", I would say it is pretty OP. And if someone tells me that that leader is from a faction that is dead and RIP and all, I would be thoroughly confused.
[...]

The thing is that leaders are usually worth up 12+ points (+ synergy if less) consistently, so if you play a 10 provision card you would currently expect it to play for 11-12 points, so the leader is worth roughly 7-8 points in that scenario, 2/3 of Imperial Formation is 11*2/3=7.33, so I do not exactly see how that interaction is broken.

You mentioning SW is an interesting situation, given that Anseis + 1/3 of the leader is also using a 10 provision card for up to 18 point value (only 1 point lower), while offering removal, as well as getting a Viraxas target, also demanding an immediate answer on that Anseis.
My point here is actually not that this means OH + Detlaff is not powerful, however that by your logic the Anseis combo should be gamebreakingly powerful.
Actually you stated something similar, so that was just mentioned for completions sake.

Furthermore the Detlaff + OH combo has existed for a while and people did not care before, I think this combo being (too) good only gets into the focus due to the artifact removal changes, which resulted in Haunt finally being usable (given that one would no longer end up with a dysfunctional hand in case of the abundant artifact removal).

To be fair my knowledge is currently not backed by a lot of playing in the current meta, given that due to SW I still cannot bring myself to play more than a few games in a week, however I doubt that the gamestate has changed so much that thing suddenly turned upside down and I am still watching others play the game.

 

[DRK3]

The year of the wererat leader abilities, of which OH is a part of, was released in April right? 6 months ago. Im surprised it took the meta this long to figure out what i've been saying all along: OH is the best MO ability.

Regarding the OP analysis, i just want to stress when calculating a leader's value you need to consider several things. In this case you missed:

- the provision cost of the card used along the leader ability, in this case, Dethlaff HV (10prov.), which is expensive but definitely worth it as banish/seize/locks are very rare, and usually both consumes are insta triggered anyway

- another 'pro' of this move is that the 19pts with 2/3 of leader charges are divided on 3 bodies (7+7+5). This is what makes it so powerful, as it cant even be countered with a lot of tall removal, that only hit 9+ units, and you would need several regardless

And yes, the unconditional situation is very important: unlike the Anseis+SW charge which provides more value per charge but has the condition of having a tall enemy unit, so it can be played around, Dethlaff + HV cant, unless you're using lockdown and counter all consumes. This unconditional combo is what makes MO able to push R2 safely, even if it goes 1CA down, it can catch up easily with this combo on a short R3.

 

[EduFerraz]

Hahaha

Nice joke this thread.

You are saying The OH leader is absolute Good because it can consume 2 times dethlaf.

Let me say something, dethlaf "per si" its a 15 points card If there is consume cards in hand or in The ground with charges left.

So OH gives you only 4 more points and The opportunity to consume dethlaff (and others dearhwish cards) but its not a 19 leader point

 

[rrc]

Hahaha

Nice joke this thread.

You are saying The OH leader is absolute Good because it can consume 2 times dethlaf.

Let me say something, dethlaf "per si" its a 15 points card If there is consume cards in hand or in The ground with charges left.

So OH gives you only 4 more points and The opportunity to consume dethlaff (and others dearhwish cards) but its not a 19 leader point

That instant trigger gives no chance to prevent it. In your same logic, Inspired Zeal is just a 3 point leader leader right? All the cards are given a provision based on the risk/reward involved in that card. Detlaff is a 15 point card for 10 provisions, which is bloody ridiculous, but it was OK before OH because it involved risks. You need to have an Order Consume unit or take the risk of getting it locked before using deploy consume units.

Now, OH doesn't give any chance to prevent it and commits 2/3rd of the ability to get full value of 15 for 10 (and adding 4 more points). All the DW units trade up a lot because of the huge risk involved in getting value out of them and OH pretty much removes the risk.

AGAIN, I am not saying OH should be nerfed or DW should be nerfed. Honestly it is interesting to play around Miruna, Manticore (by interesting I mean, losing a lot of values and playing awkwardly around those cards, but it is fun). I am not calling for nerfs. NO. All I am saying is MO players shouldn't pretend and whine that MO as a whole faction has been weak and dead and RIP when they have a bloody OP leader ability.

Post automatically merged: Oct 18, 2020

- another 'pro' of this move is that the 19pts with 2/3 of leader charges are divided on 3 bodies (7+7+5). This is what makes it so powerful, as it cant even be countered with a lot of tall removal, that only hit 9+ units, and you would need several regardless

And yes, the unconditional situation is very important: unlike the Anseis+SW charge which provides more value per charge but has the condition of having a tall enemy unit, so it can be played around, Dethlaff + HV cant, unless you're using lockdown and counter all consumes. This unconditional combo is what makes MO able to push R2 safely, even if it goes 1CA down, it can catch up easily with this combo on a short R3.

Exactly my point. Thank You. There are other leader interactions which are also equally (or some of them even more) powerful, but it all depends on the state of the board. This OH and Detlaff can be done any time *unconditionally*.

 

[judgecsk]

I agree with the fact that OH can be "overwhelmingly" good...

MOs have a good competitive leader to use but if we're gonna start talking bout things that "there's nothing you can do to stop" i think we will go completely off subject here since there are a lot of these in the game.

I've stopped moaning about MOs being weak "per se" but you can't neglect the fact that we, NG (especially), SC, and SY, have a lot of way to catch up with SK that has all the "right tools" at their disposal.

We had other good LAs (Leader Abilites) to play with before 7.2 dropped removing DS and the old FoN ability.
Now that we mostly have OH it's natural and reasonable that people will focus on how good that is.

My wish is for every leader ability to be somewhat usefull and for people to have a good chance at winning with every LA but that might be lets say... a little unrealistic from my part.

I wish i could play a vampire deck like we used to, i miss so much playing that, with all these Vails around it's really hard to get good value and win.

Anyways... i think OH is fine as it is atm and changing it will just push MOs to the trashbin (competitively)
considering how week are all of the other MO LAs, that is unless you wanna commit on playing full on meme decks that are way less consistent in terms of results.

There's gotta be a balance somewhere in-between, i hope and wish for all of us to reach that point sooner rather than later. "crosses his fingers, thinking of the next expansion"

Cheers !

 

[PavelHr]

This thread and the botched nerfing of NG in September are why the community should never be in charge of game balance.

OH is a good ability and that's how they should support archetypes. There's the cycle of Gwent decks which is Engine>Pointslam (in a long round) > control > Engine. If you want to beat OH, commit golds, win R1 and go long R3 and hopefully that's enough to win with an engine deck. I swear every time a deck comes along with a teeny tiny bit of control the general community loses its mind.

 

[rrc]

This thread and the botched nerfing of NG in September are why the community should never be in charge of game balance.

OH is a good ability and that's how they should support archetypes. There's the cycle of Gwent decks which is Engine>Pointslam (in a long round) > control > Engine. If you want to beat OH, commit golds, win R1 and go long R3 and hopefully that's enough to win with an engine deck. I swear every time a deck comes along with a teeny tiny bit of control the general community loses its mind.

No. NO. And NOO. No one is calling for nerfs and no one is saying OH has too many controls and it should not have. This is a thread which asks MO players to stop assuming and whining like MO is dead and RIP when it has OH. That is all I wanted from this thread. Not calling for nerfs.

 

[nffr42]

Now, if you tell me if there is a leader which can do this, that is committing 66% of the leader ability and playing a single card and can generate 19 points without any "Conditions Applied", I would say it is pretty OP. And if someone tells me that that leader is from a faction that is dead and RIP and all, I would be thoroughly confused. But that is what is happening. No offense to my fellow dear MO players, but please don't keep saying that MO is weak and dead when you have got a top 3 leader season after season, closely competing with SK and even NR.

I know SW with Anseis "can" get more value than this "if there is a tall unit on board". More ever SW is a broken leader and no one is saying NR is dead and RIP. Even Inspired Zeal can get 12 points by playing Seltkirk or Anseis and using only 33% of the charges. Imposter can take a tall unit and kill the opponent's tall unit by playing the Mage by committing 100% of the leader ability. PF can use the leader ability and kill the tallest unit unconditionally, playing 8 points + tall unit removed, committing 100% of the leader ability. There can be more examples (Jackpot + Philippa CAN* play for 21 points with 100% leader commitment).

But every other ability needs a certain build-up and condition to get the value, sometimes just yourself working up to the combo and sometimes expecting the opponent to do somethings. But OH + Detlaff is an unconditional 19 points on board without considering any other potential synergies like thrive. You are never under "I can pass now safely" zone. Every time I play against OH, it is just overwhelming. I am not saying OH should be nerfed. NO. But at least acknowledge that OH is pretty damn OP.

Not just that, when playing against OH, you can't play your engine as first card as it will be Manticored and if it is a 4 power unit, it will be instantly Mirunaed. If you stack a row it will be Werecated. OH forces you to play around a lot of cards and make your general overall game play weaker due to instant DW trigger. And on Red Coin, it can abuse like no other leader can. I don't complaint about needing to play around all these cards. It is part of the game, but calling MO weak is something I am not able to accept it.

Also, if you have one playable leader/deck from a faction, that is all a faction can expect. Even SK, though using different leaders it is all Warriors. ST playing two leaders, but use almost identical low-unit decks. One playable decks/archetype is all we can expect now. And in that, MO has got one of the top OP leader/deck.

İt is not 19 points.Detlaff is 11 points and leader ability 8 points.The value of OH is 10-13 points.Nature's gift is 14-16 points and OH has no removal option other than manticore,miruna,parasite.OH is strong but not OP.

 

[jack9c]

Now, if you tell me if there is a leader which can do this, that is committing 66% of the leader ability and playing a single card and can generate 19 points without any "Conditions Applied", I would say it is pretty OP.

Uh, SK Oneiro into Olaf + Battle Trance (Mardroeme Alchemy) is a finishing 23. MO is 2nd tier OP.

 

[rrc]

İt is not 19 points.Detlaff is 11 points and leader ability 8 points.The value of OH is 10-13 points.Nature's gift is 14-16 points and OH has no removal option other than manticore,miruna,parasite.OH is strong but not OP.

You play Detlaff Higher Vampire (a 10P card) and use your leader ability twice on that card (committing 66% of the leader ability) and what is standing on the board after this interaction is two Ekimara of 7 strength and the Detlaff of strength 5. 7+7+5=19.

I couldn’t understand what you meant by leader ability as worth 8 points. On paper, OH is a 6 point leader, same as SW being 6 point leader or IZ being 3 point leader, but that is how how it works. MO OH is OP and that is why you could see it brought to the tournament consistently and being top 3 leader last season with win % close to SK.

Post automatically merged: Oct 25, 2020

Uh, SK Oneiro into Olaf + Battle Trance (Mardroeme Alchemy) is a finishing 23. MO is 2nd tier OP.

I am sorry I couldn’t understand you to reply properly. If you meant Draco Turtle + Battle Trance, I think it is 17 point play (5+12), but that full leader commitment and it goes super tall to be punished by various cards. On the other hand OH+Detlaf does go tall.
OH is top 3 leader with win % close to SK. If that is second tier OP to you, I don’t know what you would consider as top tier OP.

 

[InkognitoXI]

You play Detlaff Higher Vampire (a 10P card) and use your leader ability twice on that card (committing 66% of the leader ability) and what is standing on the board after this interaction is two Ekimara of 7 strength and the Detlaff of strength 5. 7+7+5=19.

I couldn’t understand what you meant by leader ability as worth 8 points. On paper, OH is a 6 point leader, same as SW being 6 point leader or IZ being 3 point leader, but that is how how it works. MO OH is OP and that is why you could see it brought to the tournament consistently and being top 3 leader last season with win % close to SK.
[...]

Consumes are usually considered worth 1-2 points, so OH is worth 9-12 points.
The error with your evaluation is that you allocate far too few points to Detlaff HV.
IF you say that with the 2 charges + Detlaff play you get a 14 point leader you consider Detlaff a 5 for 10, which is so horrendous that noone would ever consider playing him if that would be how it works.
If we consider Consumes to be worth 1-2 points (which their cards are priced for) you end up with Detlaff being worth 15 - 2*consume price=11-13.
These days value golds usually end up with their provision cost+1 as value or major removal value, so Detlaff should (at the very least) play as an 11 for 10, which is average.
With the play with 2 leader charges and an 11 for 10 Detlaff you get an 8 point leader.
This should be the reasoning for the leader playing for 8 points and to be fair, with the Rain leader you also get a 12 point leader and that one sees no play after losing some flexibility.

 

[MANYUE2003]

Just look at team Levi meta report and we can see MO is one of the top faction that top players play and win rate is on par too with other strong faction.

NG and SY are the factions that are the lowest now (both play and win rate).

When I started playing I use double ball but I did not like to play against NG especially mill decks and I never thought this day will come that NG is the weakest now.

I am actually glad because I do not have to play against NG 3 out of 4 times in pro rank unlike 2 seasons ago.