Gwent focuses too much on powerful cards.

[Ulubey0]

I think one of the main problems with Homecoming/CC is that games are totally dependent on the most powerful cards in your deck.

• A 4 provision card is worth like 4-5 points.
• A ∼10 provision card (like foltest pride, syanna, even vysogota, etc.) are worth more than double their provisions if not destroyed.

I've even played 50 point syannas, it's kinda ridiculous because if i get that combo off none of the opponents cards played really matter. I really think Gwent needs the low provision cards to have more power and not feel like filler, possibly bring back the amount of high synergy that bronzes had in Beta. Because right now all that matters is the high provision "dues ex machina cards", and if you can remove/protect them or not.

It would be great if CDPR considered reversing how the points scale with provisions, and end up like this:

• If a 4 provision card was worth ∼8 points
• And a 10 provision card was worth ∼15

This would make your lower costed cards matter more and have a larger effect on the game, and hopefully throughout the game you would feel like more of your turns were affecting the final outcome.

 

[Moors-]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1080863991197519873

 

[nedders]

It's slightly worse than just "power" cards; the whole premise of the game is "play card, get countered". Because of the core nature, it's almost unfair to just go first, but what it also contributes to is a sense of injustice and - often - anger at the way anything plays out. Locks are too cheap given how disruptive they are, and you can't have one or two big finishers because there's too many cards will just blast them away (Setkirk, Leo, Geralt, Corrupt, etc). You either need a wide balance - Dana/Bran - or a LOT of big cards and final say - Woodland. Hence why these three decks are the ones you face all too regularly. Try anything "new" that isn't on Artuza's list and you've basically got no chance past rank 10.

I've tried bearmasters with Svalblod - spores/big killers nerf that too easily and it doesn't have tempo.
I've tried bloodthirst with Anjolf - again tempo's not really there early and whilst there's good synergy you end up with 2 x 9+ cards (Anrjolf/Gregoire) which are always wiped out.
I've gone with Eldain's traps deck - you're so at the whim of the initial deal, it's too RNG to be fun. Plus you probably have to be pretty good - guessing what cards are going to be played is again too much chance to be fun, seeing your pit trap kill an Agitator is just annnoying.

The only deck I've ever found occasionally fun is a true Svalblod self harm. You can pull off some interesting things, but it's a bit hit and miss and NG's anti-deck (Usurper) is almost auto-lose because it's entirely reliant on your ability to hit your own cards.

Every other deck is the Dana one and it's just so incredibly boring to watch Dana - Fauve - Broccoli every other match, then worry whether you've got the exact card to COUNTER Saesenth, which is again a card that's too powerful. It's a shame they nerfed Dettlaff because whilst he was strong - 12 points plus control - at least it was different.

I mean, why are there still cards like Prize Winning Cow? Not only is it easy to get rid of by about half of all cards, but there's lots of Deathblow now so it's almost a gift for the opponent; CDPR have spent so much time introducing new cards, they make considerably more existing cards redundant!

There's a decent game in there trying to get out. CDPR are doing their level best to contain that good game in the hope the mobile version will make them lots of cash.

 

[Hybridizati0nn]

I think this topic needs a lot more attention and discussion than it has so far received.

I agree with the fact that bronzes in your deck mostly feel the cards you want to dump out in round 1 or everytime mulligan away, which just feels bad. I like both the idea of narrowing the power gap as well as introducing / changing bronzes to be more highly synergizing and through those synergies have the potential to bring significant enough points.

The first thing I can think from the top of my head as an example is Tridam Infantry, which actually has nice power potential AND MORE IMPORTANTLY there isn't a gold card that would just do the same thing better.

 

[OG.laloquaint]

This is why I find discard so powerful. They can just throw away their crap cards and only use their strongest cards almost always.

 

[GiveYourBest]

Synergies between bronze cards were the core of fun in Beta Gwent. Now the lack of faction decks identity is caused by a lot of meaningless 4-5 provisions bronzes. They are there only to compensate the cost of gold cards.

 

[Ulubey0]

The first thing I can think from the top of my head as an example is Tridam Infantry, which actually has nice power potential AND MORE IMPORTANTLY there isn't a gold card that would just do the same thing better.

Yeah! Tridam infantry and Vran Warrior are the ONLY bronze cards with this kind of synergy left in the game. Beta Gwent used to be full of cards like these and you WANTED to draw into them.

Now the lack of faction decks identity is caused by a lot of meaningless 4-5 provisions bronzes. They are there only to compensate the cost of gold cards.

Absolutely, The provisions system could be so much more than just balancing out your OP cards with bad ones. It doesn't help that 80% of bronzes are now just slight variations of the same formulas:

• base power + boost or damage effect = 4-5 points.
• or do something related to archetype and boost self by 1. (This is just lazy synergy really)

It's so ridiculously boring when you consider what we had before. I actually liked Homecoming Dol Blathana Sentry before they nerfed Nivellen, it was one of the few bronzes like Beta Gwent had. You could choose to row stack and play Nivellen proactively or bomb an enemy row depending on the situation, and probably get 8+ points from your sentry. The point is you had a choice and it wasn't just lazy boost +1 engine. But then they nerfed Nivellen and Sentry with it. You can't even choose which cards to move since they have to be adjacent now. That's all just one example, but there just aren't enough bronzes that can get value through synergy and it doesn't seem like CDPR wants to add them...

 

[Raunbjorn]

Synergies between bronze cards were the core of fun in Beta Gwent. Now the lack of faction decks identity is caused by a lot of meaningless 4-5 provisions bronzes. They are there only to compensate the cost of gold cards.

This is why I can't play more than a couple of games before I'm bored with HC. Even though CC helped a bit, it still lacks the archetypes that made me fall in love with the game.

 

[Gercho7]

There are lots of decks that use a lot their browns (Einslet/Dana/Meve come to mind), any engine deck is reliant on it's browns, human soldiers decks needs their browns even if they are not an engine, there always will be some worse cards in the deck, and you rather prefer to draw some of the strongest ones... sometimes some browns have some unique ability you can put one to use in the right match up and mulligan when they have no use...

 

[Hybridizati0nn]

Absolutely, The provisions system could be so much more than just balancing out your OP cards with bad ones. It doesn't help that 80% of bronzes are now just slight variations of the same formulas:

• base power + boost or damage effect = 4-5 points.
• or do something related to archetype and boost self by 1.

First of all, I agree with @Ulubey0 that there are too many cards like this. These are mostly the cards you never want to draw in your hand after R1. In beta Gwent there were very little cards like these, almost all the cards were something you wanted to draw depending on what other cards you had in your hand.

@Gercho7 you basically said it yourself, if it's not an engine it's mostly something you want to mulligan. It's a problem that you have to have (more in some archetypes than in others) cards that you would, no matter what situation, want to mulligan away unless going second on R1. These could be something interesting and bring more value to the game rather than just being another X points + damage by X variation that always ends up being 4-5 points, which is something you don't want to be playing on board besides the abovementioned exception.

Still can't put it any better way than Tailbot did.

 

[hachri80]

While I think that the situation got better with CC and the latest patch, espacially neutral gold cards still feal too strong. With CC they added some really nice bronce cards like cintrian knight that have the potential to strengthen different archtypes. On the other hand the game still lacks the strong synergies Beta gwent used to have. When I started playing Gwent I really liked to play a Dagon fog deck which relied strongly on cards like foglet and elder foglet that could become really strong.

 

[gapaot]

Before you had bronze core, silver support-core and golden impactful cards. You were happy to see combination of those in your hand, and muliganed to achieve good balanced, synergized hand that had a few answers to opponent's deck. Nowadays you want to get all golden hand, bronzes you 99% drop out as fast as you can, and 90% of the time game is 2 rounds: r1 battle for the last say, r3 long. Very few decks try to play r2 or push r2.

All of this, plus tons of removed mechanics made Gwent boring. It's honestly sad to see my beloved game get worse everyday.

 

[SkiZophreniC]

Nowadays you want to get all golden hand, bronzes you 99% drop out as fast as you can, and 90% of the time game is 2 rounds: r1 battle for the last say, r3 long. Very few decks try to play r2 or push r2.

It is not true. Bronze is still core for NR, and has become backbone of NG plans since last update. They are the thinners/engines of MO and they do the job for ST. Bronze fillers are the main strength of SK discard, so nothing wrong here, and even Svalblod have powerful engines relying on bronzes.

All of this, plus tons of removed mechanics made Gwent boring. It's honestly sad to see my beloved game get worse everyday.

We are not playing the same game. Month after month the game feels better, more and more options become viable, great deck variety, and balance is going on, step by step. A very good indicator is the high ranks, just before pro. In past seasons you would have only encounter the most powerful decks, to climb as fast as possible to R0. Right now at R1 I have encountered all kinds of decks, some of them being weird and still winning. I am really enjoying this.

As described in this topic, some improvements could be done to enhance very weak bronzes, but the direction is good.

 

[Ulubey0]

A very good indicator is the high ranks, just before pro. In past seasons you would have only encounter the most powerful decks, to climb as fast as possible to R0. Right now at R1 I have encountered all kinds of decks, some of them being weird and still winning. I am really enjoying this.

Rank 1-5 is actually the worst case of what I'm talking about, you have all these no unit decks. Decks in that range like Woodland, Francesca, but worst imo is Harald. The only win condition in there is Harald+Dagur and maybe an extra greatsword off summoning circle.

NONE of the cards you play matter against that. Because that combo is so strong those decks can rely entirely on that last combo to win the game... and that's the same reason i started this thread.

In the example of the top post i said i was getting 50 point syannas. Let me explain how. I climbed easily by just having Syanna+Aglais as my finishing combo in a self-created deck. Aglais doubles boosts on herself, and syanna doubles the double. Essentially Syanna QUADRUPLES it. Which means 2 thunderbolts and a garrison off francesca on Aglais gives you 93 points with just 4 cards + leader. That's such a ridiculous amount of points for 38 provisions. I'm not saying that it can't be beaten or that it's unfair, just that the entire game comes down to whether people can get these combos off or not, and that play between the bronzes have practically zero impact on the overall game.

 

[Gyg]

One solution would be making bronzes more provisions effective. Bronze engines are ok as they are but all bronzes could be as points effective as say Cyntrian Knight or Knight-Errant.

 

[Gercho7]

@Hybridizati0nn If you are using a point slam deck, the gold cards (higher provisions) will give you more points than the bronze ones, if you are playing a control deck, the gold cards will be better at controlling than the bronze ones, so unless you run an engine or combo deck, you will always want to mulligan the bronzes in hopes of getting the golds... don't see a way around this. Or put it this way, you always will want to mulligan the lower provision cards in hope of getting higher provision ones.

 

[Hybridizati0nn]

@Hybridizati0nn If you are using a point slam deck, the gold cards (higher provisions) will give you more points than the bronze ones, if you are playing a control deck, the gold cards will be better at controlling than the bronze ones, so unless you run an engine or combo deck, you will always want to mulligan the bronzes in hopes of getting the golds... don't see a way around this. Or put it this way, you always will want to mulligan the lower provision cards in hope of getting higher provision ones.

And I would like to see this changed. Perhaps bronzes could achieve higher value, but require more set-up in board state than golds. I think in the end the provision gap between highest (15) and lowest (4) is too big. That it what contributes to the problem.

As @gapaot stated, in beta Gwent you wanted to have a balanced and synergized hand instead of seeing only gold cards. So it is possible to have a situation in which you want to mulligan lower provision cards always. It is a matter of design decisions, and the direction can still be steered towards relieving this issue.

 

[SkiZophreniC]

@Hybridizati0nn If you are using a point slam deck, the gold cards (higher provisions) will give you more points than the bronze ones, if you are playing a control deck, the gold cards will be better at controlling than the bronze ones, so unless you run an engine or combo deck, you will always want to mulligan the bronzes in hopes of getting the golds... don't see a way around this. Or put it this way, you always will want to mulligan the lower provision cards in hope of getting higher provision ones.

Did ever got the case where your your draw is too good on the first round, and you mulligan bronzes to not over commit ? Or that you need some synergies and just mulligan some gold for a bronze ?

 

[Gercho7]

And I would like to see this changed. Perhaps bronzes could achieve higher value, but require more set-up in board state than golds.

That's the definition of an engine... they work that way already for engines...

I think in the end the provision gap between highest (15) and lowest (4) is too big. That it what contributes to the problem.

The thing is, you already have the tools to have a more balanced deck, you can put many 10+ provision cards, and then fill with what 4 provision card is available, that will make a higher variance deck.
Or you can build your deck with many 8 and 9 pp gold cards, and 6 and 7 pp browns, and have a deck less dependant on good draws, but you still will want to mulligan the 6 to get the 9.

Its your choice in the end...

Post automatically merged: May 8, 2019

Did ever got the case where your your draw is too good on the first round, and you mulligan bronzes to not over commit ? Or that you need some synergies and just mulligan some gold for a bronze ?

I have had a couple of those hands, but they are not common, anyway, I play a NF soldier deck, that most of the time I cannot get roach on first round, cause I have a lot of browns I want to use, and just a couple golds in starting hand, a Dana deck where my browns a what wins round 3 for me many times, an arachas deck, where almost every card is usefull in different situations, so my mulligan is based on those situations, and a couple control decks where there really you always want to find the better cards...

 

[Hybridizati0nn]

That's the definition of an engine... they work that way already for engines...


The thing is, you already have the tools to have a more balanced deck, you can put many 10+ provision cards, and then fill with what 4 provision card is available, that will make a higher variance deck.
Or you can build your deck with many 8 and 9 pp gold cards, and 6 and 7 pp browns, and have a deck less dependant on good draws, but you still will want to mulligan the 6 to get the 9.

Its your choice in the end...

If it's conditional deploy, it's not an engine. If it's a card that is used to proc other cards, it's not an engine.

As for deckbuilding, the latter option will generally be weaker in most cases. Obviously generalizing and this is not always the case, you can't just throw the highest provision cards and rest fillers and hope to win