Gwent that I desire

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That what we have now: players are lazy, they play very little. And they are in small numbers.
I think you are assuming a lot with this:
1. You are assuming players are lazy, and beyond that, you follow this claim up by adding because they get the cards too easily?
2. You assume there are low numbers, again to attribute this to the economy allowing for new players to acquire cards quickly is a stretch.

I'll give you an example of a card game I play: Arkham Horror the Card Game. When you buy a set, you get ALL the cards for that set that allow you to play it. There is no collecting, you just purchase and own, then play. The game is not worse because of it, but better, because all of the cards in a particular set are designed around one another. Needing to buy the same box 20 times to finish one's collection would be a poor business model.

What about MTG, a closer example... why do they get away with it? Because they can. Whether we want to admit it or not, these lottery systems of cards are predatory by nature, and encourage a degree of gambling. In my opinion, the best ways to play MTG are to buy the "Duel boxes" which come with 2 balanced premade decks.

I don't know what you mean about real life -- if you're referring to "you have to work in life to get stuff" -- this is not a valid 1 to 1 comparison because in real life if I buy a chess set, I want to be able to play it immediately with all 32 pieces on the board. I shouldn't have to play 400 hours before I'm allowed to place the queen on the board. Would you want to play 500 hours to unlock one gold card? Would that card be more special for you? Do you think people would play the game more if getting cards took 2, 3, n times as long? But let's assume Gwent and human lifespans last forever. As time goes to infinity, everyone's collections grows to 100%, and now everyone is able to play on equal footing -- in my opinion, this is what the game is meant to be experienced as, and CDPR has correctly identified that most players (I will say that using the opinions of people I know and different things I've read online and extrapolating) also view this. Except, we don't have the luxury of infinite time, so they've tuned this back to allow players to instead only need to invest 6 months (let's say) to own the full set. Monetization can then come in the place of premiums, boards, and whatever else CDPR can add in future iterations of Gwent.

The purpose of playing a CCG is not to collect. It's a "collectible card game", meaning, it's a card game (first and foremost) where you have to collect cards in order to play it. The purpose of the game is not to collect the cards, that's merely the vector by which you enable yourself to build new decks. The collecting aspect is there for the company to monetize their game. Could Gwent sell their game for 20$ and just give a full collection? Perhaps, but I'd wager that they thought the F2P model would be more lucrative -- bring in more players, while also allowing for monetization from the players who would rather own the cards up front. I know I've spent money on the game, and don't regret it. I still have a lot to collect, but I'm 100% able to compete vs other pro rank players, and if there's something I want to try, I'm not more than a week away from getting enough scraps to try it out.

Maybe this is where we divulge in what we think Gwent is/should be about -- you want to collect items (fair to say?) or at the very least put value on the cards themselves (as a way of collecting trophies?), and I'd rather play versus other players using fair conditions. Which is ok, but we don't have to agree on everything. My whole point is, that let's say Detlaff Higher Vampire is so rare that only I can own him... well, then other players would own cards that I can't have, that wouldn't feel very good. What if me and 5 other people own him, well now 5 other people own him, ruining the novelty of me being the sole owner, but also, I'm still missing a TON of other cards. What instead we have, is everyone has all the cards, or at least most of them, and the game is about using the cards themselves.

If you like collecting stuff, you have premiums, cardbacks, portraits, titles -- I still think CDPR should add more cosmetics. Make meteorite powder a scarcer commodity by giving players more ways to spend it on.

Looking forward to the Novigrad update tomorrow. Think about the preorders for this set. People who preorder will essentially get a huge chunk of the cards immediately because they paid a bit of real money -- does this make the game worse for them? For me it doesn't, but I'll be happy if the free to players can also get whatever cards they need after playing for 2-4 weeks to be on equal footing with me.

I think I've made my point enough times that I'll leave it at that, and if others have anything to add I'll be curious to read their thoughts on it are.
 
There is no collecting, you just purchase and own, then play. The game is not worse because of it, but better, because all of the cards in a particular set are designed around one another.
It is not logical, cause all CCG have cards designed one around other. It is called synergy. So neither HS, nor Gwent is an exception here.
Needing to buy the same box 20 times to finish one's collection would be a poor business model.
Say it to HS and MTG with MTGA. Busters is one of the most attracting things. Cause they hide a secret: what will u get? A trash or a treasure? People like surprises, but u want to deny it. In modern Gwent (so in OBT) it is not very differ if u get bronze or gold, cause everyone have almost everything. Now it differ mostly if card is animated or not, cause animations now are expensive. If u also make the cards more expensive, there be more happiness, when u get one of card u missed from a keg. So, u'll give people more good emotions. Now it is mostly just an indifference. Such emotion cannot attract and leave a good impression. Such games are simply forgotten as ur Arkham Horror the Card Game.
Understand one thing: there must be permament reasons to return to the game. Need of cards, dreams of strong decks, which would be collected one day, are ones of the main reasons why people play MTG and HS.
What about MTG, a closer example... why do they get away with it? Because they can. Whether we want to admit it or not, these lottery systems of cards are predatory by nature, and encourage a degree of gambling.
Gambling is one of the natures of CCG. If u haven't this, u r not a card player. Gambling always had a place in Witcher RPG. It's natural for cards. It MUST be, or cards become boring.
As time goes to infinity, everyone's collections grows to 100%, and now everyone is able to play on equal footing
U can play on equal footing even from start! Cause there are the starting decks with strong golds. So from the beginning everyone have equal rights in getting to top. Difference is in variety of ways. So u must pay for variety with ur money and/or with ur time. So, there is initialy no rights repealing. And noone must ever collect all cards to play on equal rights.
What if me and 5 other people own him, well now 5 other people own him, ruining the novelty of me being the sole owner, but also, I'm still missing a TON of other cards. What instead we have, is everyone has all the cards, or at least most of them, and the game is about using the cards themselves.
It is the interest - u don't know what a deck is infront of u. Is it a standart variant or a mod? Because almost noone has all cards. It will be always a surprise. And people love surprises. It is very interesting. But now u see a leader and some first moves and u defenetly can predicts all cards, that will appear. Isn't it boring? Almost all have the same decks. It's one of the things that I hate in Gwent: identical decks. In Witcher 3 it was impossible to encounter the same deck u played against before. And this situation is essential to normal CCGs. This adds another point to game interest.
Looking forward to the Novigrad update tomorrow. Think about the preorders for this set. People who preorder will essentially get a huge chunk of the cards immediately because they paid a bit of real money -- does this make the game worse for them? For me it doesn't, but I'll be happy if the free to players can also get whatever cards they need after playing for 2-4 weeks to be on equal footing with me.
Almost noone will preorder. Cause there is no sense for it. People have too much resources to buy everything, especially in two month after anounce. As I already said, playing for 6 rounds win a day for a two months, I collected 11000 ore, what is 110 kegs by 100 or 55 by 200 ore. In next 2 months I'll have 22000 ore so it'll be 110 kegs in a worst case (200 ore for keg) or even 220 kegs if one cost for 100 ore. It is more then enough. But many people have much more resources then me. So there be very low number of preorders and CDPR will gain almost nothing for their work.
I think I've made my point enough times that I'll leave it at that, and if others have anything to add I'll be curious to read their thoughts on it are.
I think, u don't really understand all the deep and importance of this 7th point. U are standing just for equal gameplay for everyone, what is boring in a long term. I am standing for more essential things, which bring interest from players and income to developers. My model is an almost perpetual source of interest from both sides (players and developers).
 
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I just want this CCG to be CCG. What means Collecting Card Game. There must be players' slums and lux zones. So everyone should want to get from slums to lux. So people play more, play better. It will make more on-line, more popularity.
When people have everything, they are not interested in playing more and even in playing better. And just that breaks your favorite game competitiveness. There must be tension, wishes, desires to go upper, to get more. That's how real life works.
But u offer easy satisfaction, which will bring just laziness. That what we have now: players are lazy, they play very little. And they are in small numbers.

Precisely what makes Gwent stand out from the competition!

You can collect the premiums, you can get to the lux zones of the top of the pro rank (which rewards skill), and you can still casually enjoy playing a game of skill on an even field without a ridiculous investment of time/money.

In summary a CCG without the bad things of a CCG! I love Gwent for that : )
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Gambling is one of the natures of CCG. If u haven't this, u r not a card player. Gambling always had a place in Witcher RPG. It's natural for cards. It MUST be, or cards become boring.

Let's agree to disagree then ; )

Gambling within the card game itself is part of many card games and that is quite ok (do you play Marauder and risk killing your own units? Do you play this or that RNG effect and hope it will pay out?...)

Gambling with money - or time, which is money ;) - is something else completely. You can go to a casino or play poker if that is your thing, but this is not for everyone...

Stating that if you don't gamble you are not a card player is in my opinion completely false.

For example, one of the card games I enjoy most is "The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game" which has expansions which always include a set of known cards, requires a fair amount of skill, deck building abilities, etc.
Plenty of people buying the expansions regularly since 2011, treasuring their collection, making thematic boxes for them... :D

What you describe in your posts is how "some" CCGs have been designed and monetised, but thankfully not all have gone that route!
 
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I I me me mine (George Harrison)

What a bizarre thread full of entitlement issues.

I read some of it. Doesn't seem like the OP read anything related to the subject he's talking about on the numerous other threads that have been started already! FFS!

I myself have suggested the game is too easy to get better cards too early. Then simply netdeck your way up the ladder. Crap!

Anyway. All the best!
 
Gambling with money - or time, which is money ;) - is something else completely. You can go to a casino or play poker if that is your thing, but this is not for everyone...
Noone asks u to by kegs for real money. But someone can like it. Money is time and the time is money. U can spend ur time to earn ingame currency and then spend it for kegs, or u can spend real money, which are another time analog, to buy the same with no ingame time spending. Still it is a gambling. I don't see anything wrong with it.
 
Some words for automechanics. I understand it fully only now (what was told by others here). One of the main advantages of automechanics is that it borns a GAME. Not only u can use them for ur good, but ur opponent may do it too. That's why this borns a GAME of two players with automatically working factors on the board.
For example, if u placed a catapult, automatically shooting to random enemy, ur opponent can use it for his good, placing some cards, which becoming stronger by it's shoots or dealing a response damage like it makes Blueboy Lugos. And u cannot control ur own catapult, cause it doesn't have an order, but has an automatical mechanic. So here an interesting game borns with fast passes, self-locking and another drama. Or, for example, there a card can exist, which turns every buffed card into a pig (like in quest Fool's Gold) or makes an artifact compression of a buffed card. So the enemy can use it to his advantage, buffing ur cards, turning them into a pigs, or he can use that pigs like animals for some animal mechanics. So, every automatical card can be used to all players' good. So, I think almost every card must have some auto triggering mechanics, being an engine (arbalests autoshooting, swordsmen autohitting, mages autospelling). So u can use almost all cards to ur good, even if they belong to opponent.
And all this fun is possible because there is no control of this mechanic, like u have it with orders. To many control makes game boring, it actually kills the game and turns it to a confrontation, a battle, what is not a game's essence, where people are just playing with each other having fun. That's why orders are bad. They make game lesser fun, more controllable, more egoistic. Even chess are better, because u can use opponent's figures to ur advantage, locking up the king and checkmating him, for example.
Another examples of this automech advantage:
1. A simple bronze soldier, who can has a trigger "attack random enemy in a melee row by 1 every 2 turns". And another player can place a harpy eggs on melee, for example, or another such a thing (some bomb may be), which is breaking by hands of his opponent and gives him an advantage.
2. There already a card exists that is buffing adjacent units (Anna Stenger). Or it can be another autobuffing card (like Golden Foam as a weather). So if ur opponent played it, u can play a spy nearby that unit, that is returning to ur side in some turns. So opponent can pass for do not allow him return, he can lock him, kill him by some control card, consume him by some creature. So many possibilities, if mechanic is autotriggering by time, to have another player time to think and make some actions. Panic actions, may be, which u can use to ur advantage too.
3. If opponent is using frost on some row, u can play some creature, that can get buffed by frost instead of damaging by it. Seeing this ur opponent can play that pigmaking card, to turn this buffing creature into a pig. If he plays it, u can buff some his creature and turn it into a pig too.
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4. There some wild hunter can exist that is causing a frost on the row he appears and self-buffing from this frost. So the opponent can move ur creature from another row to make him damaged by this frost. Frost must be remade to be casted to any row (not enemy's only).
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So, as you may see, there must exist cards, that are playing against their player in some cases, to give opponent an opportunity to play a game with u, not only play his own cards on his side, which are always good and safe. Almost all cards must not be safe for player, who plays them. They may even have some negative effects, but, for example, with lower provision cost, then analogical cards without such an effect. That will make the game more interactive between players, when they have opportunities to influence another side's position and state or use another side's factors to their own advantage.
5. For example, monsters' card Rotfiend must be remade to cause damage to adjacent cards, when it is damaged too much (that was in-game behavior). This can be used not only by the opponent, but by urself too (for deathwish triggering). Berserk 3 means card is damaged to 3 or less. After it counter starts to count one turn after what card will be destroyed and damage ur adjacent units by 5. This unit is very good for his cost and can be used in deathwish decks or as a single card in a row. Enemy can move it to another row or change a position in the same row and destroy there to cause damage to not deathwish cards. Also it has a timer of destroing, so u can lock it, consume or make something else.
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6. Ur opponent can place some artifact, that buffs a random unit of his own every turn. And u can have a card, that steals artifacts, and use this artifact to ur advantage. May be opponent can make it intentionally, to place a pig totem next, which turns all buffed cards to a pigs to punish u for stealing. But u don't know, does he have this card or not, did it come to his hand or not. That is a drama, that is a game, that is a mess! So many different possibilities can exist, so many bluff actions, if u make every card an autotriggering engine, that u cannot control since it is played. This must be very fun))

So, the fun is opposite to control. Control is always boring. And, giving players too much control, u give them boredom and aggression. Control must be lowered by removing orders, which not only bring the boredom and uncontrollable damage stacking, but break the turn-basement of the game, when every player can make only one play every turn. Changing orders to auto mechanics (and adding some automechanics and triggers to almost all the cards) will give not only fastening of the game, not only will ease a mobile playing, but also will make the game much funnier with uncontrollable autotriggering.
 
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I have something else to say here. Since I left Gwent, I went to Hearthstone. I don't fully like this game, but it is the best alternative, I think. It is light, it is fun, it's friendly and diversive. And now they have released a new mode, that everyone has heard of - Battlegrounds. It's very fun mode, and many HS people went there, and even Gwenters. It is in beta, but still is very popular. There is a joke about this mode: "We were waiting long for Hearthstone killer, but we didn't expect, that it will be created by Blizzard itself".
So, why it is even a HS killer? Because of what me and Mirage_ have told about - automatical mechanics (point 3 of my list). It's very entertaining, It's very fun because u are freed from too much control. Ur units fight by themselves, u must not fight for them, u must not control every move of ur units. U just know the order they will go and sort them properly. This mode is very relaxing comparing to the standart one, because of lesser control. And that is what u want from a game.
Also another point of my list have been realised there - number seven, which is telling about rags-to-riches economy, when u start from nothing and go to big numbers. This is very cool and gives u feeling of power.

What else good points I want to notice:
1. Entertaining effects of card's collisions: bum, bum, budum! Powerfull cards make more powerfull effects of camera shuffling. It makes a wonderfull feeling of the game and units. Feel of power. Gwent has it in very rare cases (earthquake and RNR spells). That is one of the points why Gwent is boring, so u can go asleep playing it - it is lacking of card effects.
2. Friendly tavern spirit. Point one of my list, which gives u a comfortable atmosphere of the tavern. Even when it is called Battle Grounds, what is better for Gwent's dirty battle fields, even with that they have a warm tavern, not dirty, bloody, cold, unfriendly fileds of Gwent. Cause noone wants to go to such unfriendly atmosphere every day. Dirty fields and bloody taverns are good for adventure and horror games, but not for relaxing card games. But even in adventures u have a comfortable home, where u want to return. Bethesda even made this as a main idea of their DLC to Skyrim - Hearthfire (almost a Hearthstone). Because in Morrowind and Oblivion people liked to create their houses and make them comfortable. In Gwent we are deprived of this relaxing and friendly atmosphere.
So, Hearthstone makes everything right, that's why it is the number one of CCGs now.

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