Harvest Of Sorrow - The final card drop of Price Of Power

[InkognitoXI]

Fair enough. For me, it's the comparison to a similar existing card, in this case Forest Protector, which has been unchanged since it was introduced, which would lead one to believe IT was "well-balanced," at least in the eyes of the devs, so when a new card is printed that is a lot like the existing one, but has more utility, more point potential from synergies, AND costs significantly less, I tend to think THAT card is the unbalanced one. Either way you look at it, though, the disparity is pretty blatant.

The difference is that Forest Protector is not completely dependent on the opponent to find good value (in fact not at all), will almost always hit a 5 damage Special and has a Tag that benefits from it (+2 from Rebuke), not to mention that you control the Tag of the card you get, so you can get synergies with sources such as Nature's Gift (although her triggering Assimilate is similar).
If anything this reminds me of Anna Henrietta being announced and some people going craazy over her, while she did not turn out even remotely as problematic as people would suggest.

I am not saying Forest Protector should not get a 1p buff, however Lydia is in no way a powercrept version on Forest Protector, not even close.

 

[Barracuda88]

The difference is that Forest Protector is not completely dependent on the opponent to find good value (in fact not at all), will almost always hit a 5 damage Special and has a Tag that benefits from it (+2 from Rebuke), not to mention that you control the Tag of the card you get, so you can get synergies with sources such as Nature's Gift (although her triggering Assimilate is similar).
If anything this reminds me of Anna Henrietta being announced and some people going craazy over her, while she did not turn out even remotely as problematic as people would suggest.

I am not saying Forest Protector should not get a 1p buff, however Lydia is in no way a powercrept version on Forest Protector, not even close.

No, Forest Protector is depended on own graveyard to find value, and can only play Nature cards that have already been played, whereas Lydia is limited by and dependent on... your FACTION having bronze specials? Let me know which faction doesn't have those. Or maybe there is a faction that can offer 3 options so terrible that she won't get "good" value. In fact, off the top of my head, I would say there's about 75 percent chance she hits that 5-point damage special, which is a MUCH higher percentage than how often the Forest Protector actually gets 12 points out of that rebuke. Plus, she can brick the Protector by removing the card from his graveyard. Plus, while the Protector procs Symbiosis engines, Lydia does the same, except she can also easily double proc those Assimilate engines in the same turn and the tag that "you control" (which actually controls you, as FP can only play nature) doesn't matter at all, because it will trigger Assimilate regardless.

How is this not "close" to powercreeping FP? Which part of this is incorrect?

 

[InkognitoXI]

No, Forest Protector is depended on own graveyard to find value, and can only play Nature cards that have already been played, whereas Lydia is limited by and dependent on... your FACTION having bronze specials? Let me know which faction doesn't have those. Or maybe there is a faction that can offer 3 options so terrible that she won't get "good" value. In fact, off the top of my head, I would say there's about 75 percent chance she hits that 5-point damage special, which is a MUCH higher percentage than how often the Forest Protector actually gets 12 points out of that rebuke. Plus, she can brick the Protector by removing the card from his graveyard. Plus, while the Protector procs Symbiosis engines, Lydia does the same, except she can also easily double proc those Assimilate engines in the same turn and the tag that "you control" (which actually controls you, as FP can only play nature) doesn't matter at all, because it will trigger Assimilate regardless.

How is this not "close" to powercreeping FP? Which part of this is incorrect?

1.) Against SK hitting the Stunning Blow is a 30% chance, against ST hitting Rebuke is a 37.5% chance, against NR hitting Oil is a 30% chance, against SY the chance to hit Payday is 18.75%, against NG hitting Coated Weapons or Assassinate is a 75% chance and against MO there exists no 5dmg Special, so I have no idea how you got to your "off the top of my head, I would say there's about 75 percent chance she hits that 5-point damage special [...]" estimation.

2.) I already stated that her triggering Assimilate is pretty much equivalent to triggering Symbiosis and outside of niche situations, how does Lydia "double trigger" Assimilate ?

3.) Being dependent on the own Graveyard is an insane upside, given that you are not dependent on the opponent creating the setup for you and you can generate actually consistent value.

4.) How does the "She counters Forest Protector" make her a powercrept card ? By that logic Xavier Lemmens is a powercrept Forest Protector.

5.) Just because Lydia is bound to find some usable Specials that does not mean that her finding something barely playable is breaking even.
Especially against SY she is going to be very unreliable (with 7 out of 16 options relying on you also generating a spender, just to be tolerable).
Against MO and SY she is pretty horrible, which is also why I compared her to Anna Henrietta, as that card can generate an amazing amount of points in a few matchups and is fairly unimpressive to garbage otherwise.

To sum it up I would say that she is most definitely not a powercrept Forest Protector.

 

[rrc]

2.) I already stated that her triggering Assimilate is pretty much equivalent to triggering Symbiosis and outside of niche situations, how does Lydia "double trigger" Assimilate ?

Lydia -> Bountiful Harvest -> Sorceress -> Tempering.. that makes her triple assimilate trigger. I understand that it is only against ST, but we don't know what other bronze special card will be introduced which may spawn and play another bronze card. Any such card can immediately double proc Assimilate and 3rd proc is currently very limited chance, but there is a chance nonetheles.

 

[InkognitoXI]

Lydia -> Bountiful Harvest -> Sorceress -> Tempering.. that makes her triple assimilate trigger. I understand that it is only against ST, but we don't know what other bronze special card will be introduced which may spawn and play another bronze card. Any such card can immediately double proc Assimilate and 3rd proc is currently very limited chance, but there is a chance nonetheles.

True, there is also Runeword for NR.
Also for clarification, I am not at all saying she is bad, but stating that she does the same thing as Forest Protector and is better at it is just plain wrong.
(Also given how old Forest Protector is, it is currently overpriced, given what its provisions range is currently expected to do)

 

[MikeBiazzo]

True, there is also Runeword for NR.
Also for clarification, I am not at all saying she is bad, but stating that she does the same thing as Forest Protector and is better at it is just plain wrong.
(Also given how old Forest Protector is, it is currently overpriced, given what its provisions range is currently expected to do)

Also against NG too with Diplomacy.

 

[Barracuda88]

1.) Against SK hitting the Stunning Blow is a 30% chance, against ST hitting Rebuke is a 37.5% chance, against NR hitting Oil is a 30% chance, against SY the chance to hit Payday is 18.75%, against NG hitting Coated Weapons or Assassinate is a 75% chance and against MO there exists no 5dmg Special, so I have no idea how you got to your "off the top of my head, I would say there's about 75 percent chance she hits that 5-point damage special [...]" estimation.

You're right. The percentages are actually lower, because it's the faction bronzes, not the starting deck bronzes, but together with the graveyard hate option it will be higher than those vanilla ones, and if she doesn't hit the 5p damage special, there's still consistent value, where she will not brick: tempering is 5, waylay is 6, bomb is movement+4, etc.

2.) I already stated that her triggering Assimilate is pretty much equivalent to triggering Symbiosis and outside of niche situations, how does Lydia "double trigger" Assimilate ?

She double triggers it from Harvest or Stone.

3.) Being dependent on the own Graveyard is an insane upside, given that you are not dependent on the opponent creating the setup for you and you can generate actually consistent value.

That's not an upside at all, as it is vulnerable to graveyard hate AND dependent on you drawing and playing the specials. Lydia can be proactive or reactive, does not have to wait for a card to be played or appear in graveyard to gain value.

4.) How does the "She counters Forest Protector" make her a powercrept card ? By that logic Xavier Lemmens is a powercrept Forest Protector.

No, that's not the logic at all. The logic here is that she is 5 body+play a bronze special card that can either steal your graveyard card to brick your protector, OR just create value out of thin air if there's nothing to steal. FP, on the other hand, is 2p more expensive and can only do one thing: play a bronze nature card from graveyard, which is severely limiting him in comparison. That is why she is powercreeping him.

5.) Just because Lydia is bound to find some usable Specials that does not mean that her finding something barely playable is breaking even.
Especially against SY she is going to be very unreliable (with 7 out of 16 options relying on you also generating a spender, just to be tolerable).
Against MO and SY she is pretty horrible, which is also why I compared her to Anna Henrietta, as that card can generate an amazing amount of points in a few matchups and is fairly unimpressive to garbage otherwise.

Just because she's not going to knock it out of the park against everything does not mean she doesn't get value. Protector can brick, too, or play for less that it's max value of 12 (imagine that) and it's an 11p card. All the crap options are still options, and she's still more flexible. And can find value against anything, even if it's 8-9. Protector can be played for 5 and it's an 11p card.

To sum it up I would say that she is most definitely not a powercrept Forest Protector.

To sum it up, i would say that she most definitely powercrept the bejeezus out of FP

 

[InkognitoXI]

[...]
That's not an upside at all, as it is vulnerable to graveyard hate AND dependent on you drawing and playing the specials. Lydia can be proactive or reactive, does not have to wait for a card to be played or appear in graveyard to gain value.
[...]

It is an upside as it is completely in your hand and if you do not have a backup target you have it coming.

[...]
No, that's not the logic at all. The logic here is that she is 5 body+play a bronze special card that can either steal your graveyard card to brick your protector, OR just create value out of thin air if there's nothing to steal. FP, on the other hand, is 2p more expensive and can only do one thing: play a bronze nature card from graveyard, which is severely limiting him in comparison. That is why she is powercreeping him.
[...]

The issue I have with that argument is that you rate 1 specific instance where she shines and then say that she will otherwise definitely create another just as good option.
Against ST she definitely plays in that way, however there are 6 factions you can go up against, not just 1.

[...]
No, that's not the logic at all. The logic here is that she is 5 body+play a bronze special card that can either steal your graveyard card to brick your protector, OR just create value out of thin air if there's nothing to steal. FP, on the other hand, is 2p more expensive and can only do one thing: play a bronze nature card from graveyard, which is severely limiting him in comparison. That is why she is powercreeping him.
[...]

Powercreeping is a term usually attributed to cards being released that are above the current powerlevel, Forest Protector has been powercrept for a while, just releasing another more efficient card is not powercreeping it and in the end Forest Protector is very reliable removal, while Lydia is not reliable at getting removal options, so she is not even doing the same, just because both play a Special from a graveyard does not mean it is the same if the location and conditions are completely different.

 

[Slizzl]

Nice to finally be able to interact with the opponent's specials with Assimilate. With these cards I think the archetype will feel complete.
I would've put Lydia at 10 provisions and Practitioner at 4 strength but we'll see.

 

[DRK3]

So, NG overall getting more amazing cards, what a surprise...

Interesting that Lydia's first comparison was to Forest Protector, what first came to my mind was how she is similar to Walter Veritas (who is basically a SY Runestone on a body), but with 1 more point and with an alternate ability to give her more versatility... so powercreep.

Also, the Illusionist is very matchup dependent, like users have already pointed out...
But you're thinking of its effect on NG, now think what it will do to NR, which is the faction with the most bronze engines, and one that struggles the most in the current meta, and has had the worst support in PoP... yay now another way for NG to abuse their own strength against them and push NR even further away from the meta

 

[MikeBiazzo]

Well, NG won the North wars, don't they? So it's historically accurate

 

[Philido]

Well, NG won the North wars, don't they? So it's historically accurate

Did they? Defeat at Sodden, defeat at Brenna and the third war's outcome is up to the player in Witcher 3, right?

 

[MikeBiazzo]

Which means they win, as is written in my history books ^^

 

[Gyg]

Did they? Defeat at Sodden, defeat at Brenna and the third war's outcome is up to the player in Witcher 3, right?

There are small quotes at the beginings of chapters in Witcher saga books that hint that in the end Nilfgaard did conquer the North, but without specific emperor or timeline in mind.

 

[ThorgerWolff]

Cheatgaard tsk, MO cards better be good, not too good else they will be nerfed within 24 hours probably ;(

 

[Markus_Wirth]

Lydia

From my perspective by far the strongest card of PoP III. If she is lucky her graveyard-stolen card can trigger assimilate multiple times.
Before in the thread she was compared to Forest Protector who definitely needs a buff. I would argue that both cards should be in the same provision level and power level. Same holds for Triss Telekinesses who costs 2 provision more and has 1 body less.

Evaluation: I would give her a 10 out of 10. That card screams for some nerf (maybe body of 2).

 

[Barracuda88]

Lydia

From my perspective by far the strongest card of PoP III. If she is lucky her graveyard-stolen card can trigger assimilate multiple times.
Before in the thread she was compared to Forest Protector who definitely needs a buff. I would argue that both cards should be in the same provision level and power level. Same holds for Triss Telekinesses who costs 2 provision more and has 1 body less.

Evaluation: I would give her a 10 out of 10. That card screams for some nerf (maybe body of 2).

Yeah, Triss Tele is another one. See, when the Protector came out, it was well-balanced against "encumbent" Triss. It was a similar card, same provision, Triss a neutral, so 1 less body, and a bit more RNG, Protector a bit less RNG, but limited to graveyard cards only, but good synergy with Nature's Gift and Rebuke, etc. Now they print a new card, that has - in its own way - similar mechanics, has the same body as the protector, but it's "randomly" 2 provisions cheaper. All three of these cards need to be the same cost. I honestly don't even care if it's 11, 9, or 10, but the current cost gap is ridiculous.

 

[Draconifors]

There's been a SY card revealed now, but it seems to be video-only and I have no interest in watching a video. Especially about a SY card.

 

[betraymechino]

There's been a SY card revealed now, but it seems to be video-only and I have no interest in watching a video. Especially about a SY card.

The video will be watchable at noon CEST

 

[ThorR_RPG]