HC Usurper change suggestion

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I'm not expert on game balancing, but ppl are talking about usurper and i think indeed it might need some tweak to make it more fun.

Here is an idea:
Charge 2 (or 1, I'm not sure on this)
Order: Disable enemy leader ability for the duration of the round

You can now only disable enemy leader in some of the turns, which lead to more strategic thinking with usurper, also, if you lose the previous round, enemy leader may still proactively trigger his/her ability once at the start of the round (even tho it may be less effective since you don't have any units on board just yet), and you have to wait for your turn to disable his/her ability
 
My only question is why? Usurper is not OP at all, it's just people don't like him.

At best it gets you the same value the leader you block would get your opponent. Oh, actually, it's less value than that, seeing as he has fewer mulligans. So even in the best case scenario, he doesn't get as much value as the leader he actually blocks!

Your change would make him the weakest leader in the game, and NG already has a crap ton of weak leaders. It's not that the Usurper is strong, it's that the rest are weak!

*EDIT* Also, with 2 charges, you can just aim to play 2 rounds and drypass one and the result'll probably be the same
 
Disabling the enemy leader for only one round would make it too weak. Though, I agree the card is not fun as it is now and should be changed.
 
My only question is why? Usurper is not OP at all, it's just people don't like him.

At best it gets you the same value the leader you block would get your opponent. Oh, actually, it's less value than that, seeing as he has fewer mulligans. So even in the best case scenario, he doesn't get as much value as the leader he actually blocks!

Your change would make him the weakest leader in the game, and NG already has a crap ton of weak leaders. It's not that the Usurper is strong, it's that the rest are weak!

*EDIT* Also, with 2 charges, you can just aim to play 2 rounds and drypass one and the result'll probably be the same

I agree it's not OP per say, but it's not fun, it eliminates part of the game mechnic and provide nothing else in return

With the change he can get more mulligan or less provision for a change to get balance
 

rrc

Forum veteran
At best it gets you the same value the leader you block would get your opponent. Oh, actually, it's less value than that, seeing as he has fewer mulligans. So even in the best case scenario, he doesn't get as much value as the leader he actually blocks!

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you my friend! He doesn't get the same value as the opponent. While the opponent builds his deck around his/her Leader synergy, Usurper's deck will expect nothing from his leader and there is a significant difference here. Usurper knows what he is going to get (or not), but the opponents don't.

Usurper will make everyone think twice about spending a good amount time building deck around their leaders. There is a reason why we have to choose the Leader first (in classic mode). Most of other card is going to some how matter and be relevant to the leader chosen. If when entering into the battle, it is going to be nullified by someone who had built the deck with cards which don't need their leader's synergy, it is a significant advantage.

It is multiple times more pathetic than Hym. I had to remove Ida from my silver cards since I run White Frost and didn't want to give Hym Ida. At least Hym works at Silver level, where as Usurper works at the Leader level. Should I also choose a leader who is kind of neutral and build decks with cards which will have nothing to do with the leader, just because I may face Usurper? What kind of a unhealthy system is that? Usurper will be the perfect card for Arena where you build some random deck and some random Leader. For classical mode, at his present ability, he is an abomination who gives unacceptable advantage to his builder and makes everyone else want to create decks which will not depend upon their leader.

I tried only SC in the PTR. I first tried Filandrevel and chose cards which are good when they are already boosted when deployed (Wardancer, that dwarf dude who gains resilience). Then I tried Enid en Glena. I had to add a lot of special cards so that I draw at least one (and since she has lowest mulligan charge), sacrificing my deck based on the leader. Then I tried Eithné and had a lot of deal-damage units so that I can align with Edpidemic. In all these cases, my deck was based on the leader I chose. None of the deck would work with any other leader from the same faction itself. Imagine the battlefield when Ususper comes with cards he built which didn't need his leader ability. How is it fair?

[It is like you have planned well to play a Chess game. You come up with 'if the opponent plays this opening, I will play that.. I will do this and that..' and when you are going to start the game, the opponent says, 'lets play Go and not Chess'. Not this extreme, but kind of invalidating all the thought process you had before the game.]
 
The reason people don't like Usurper is because if you make a deck that's centered around leader synergy, Usurper will not only remove the leader ability but by extension deactivate the synergies the deck depends on, turning a lot of cards that needed their leader to work well into trash. The most extreme case of this is probably the Henselt deck that uses Henselt to pull out like 8+ Cursed Knights as its win condition only to be missing the leader ability that the deck revolves around, but it's far from the only one. Arachas Queen decks usually count on their leader to give them positive points on a lot of stunts and become complete garbage without her. Even Eithne decks no longer being able to use their leader to line up a Regis or Scorch or power out Sihil or whatever or a Foltest deck left looking at a Prize-winning Cow or Seltkirk but no zeal can make all the difference in card power. So the existence of Usurper alone strongly discourages people from making decks that revolve around their leaders, since Usurper just autowins against them. It's a very negative constraint against deckbuilding since you don't want auto-loss.

There's no real counterplay or playing around Usurper other than "don't make decks that depend on your leader." At most you can design Eithne with a few more ping sources (masterwork spear, etc.) and Foltest with some drummers and Natalis but decks like Arachas Queen just get horribly screwed and become complete trash. That's not fun. That's not skill trumping luck. That's you having the bad luck of entering a match against a deck that isn't simply a bad matchup but a downright unwinnable one and immediately conceding and taking the loss. It's unpleasant now, and it'll be a lot more unpleasant when ranked rolls out later.
 
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If Usurper is your idea of balancing Henselt then you are making a great case for why you would make a bad game balancer. What are you suggesting, everyone else should play Usurper to prevent Henselt CK? And this will make the game better?
 
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I didn't say that. I only pointed out Henselt because he was an extreme case of an all-in leader-revolving deck which can flip from Tier 1 to Tier 4 based on whether or not he is going up against Usurper.
 
If you think that pulling 8 knights is normal you are even worse balancer than me.
Henselt is broken just like the Usurper

Henselt is not broken, he's bugged.He does not what written on his card. Usurper is an other story: he is not bugged, he is designed this way. His ability is not healthy for a game, where you want to build your deck around your leader. And super unfun to play against it...there is no counterplay, you place your without leader-sinergy underpowered cards on the battlefield and will lose anyway.
 
(y)
Thanks friend Now I know how to call it more correctly the next time my opponent does it to me.

You're welcome :cool:

I meant: Henselt's ability says: "play a copy of an allied unit from your deck". For me this means only one copy. If it pulls ALL copies then it is a bug, that must be patched. If it is intended to do so, then the description is wrong and Henselt is - as you said - broken. But I think it is the first. BUT Usurper works as intended and his ability is not healthy for the game and must be reworked IMO.
 
Dont change it, remove the ability alltogether.
There are layers to the game, you Ideas of how do you build your deck.
Is it around a particular combo? do you want to bruteforce your opponent down? Are you gonna focus on shutting down their game plan? Maybe a sudden tempo push? Usurper single handedly removes any layers involving leader ability.

My only question is why? Usurper is not OP at all, it's just people don't like him.

Lets see how many reasons i can come up with:
1st - Ability doesnt add anything to the game. Why would you have a Leader that straight up reduces the amount of interactions, of content in it? Its simply badly designed.
2nd - It invalidates several archtypes. Monster swarm? Nope. NR pulling? Cant do that. I can go on if you wish. And its not even a counterplay. Its simply passive, cant be baited, cant be avoided, your only "play" around it if dumbing down your own deck building process to forego leader ability.
3rd - it gives a pre-game advantage to the NG player. If you play usurper, you KNOW there is going to be no Leader abilities in game. Your opponent doesnt. Even if he doesnt build his deck around his leader (and lets face it, competetive side of any game involves min-max attitute, wich means you basicly should use a synergistic leader), he still has to respect other leaders, depending on the meta. So if lets say, Arachas queen is too popular, people gonna look at tremors to clear the spiders, Epidemics, lacerates, maybe graveyard clearing for the Hag. If you play Usurper - well, you get the idea.

This game has had its fair share or "Wild boar club" cards, those that were just hillariously bad. Alot of ridiculously OP stuff like first iteration of weather. Several outright poorly designed cards like DBP.
But Usurper is pretty much the worst thing ive seen in Gwent. It manages to be both distructive to the game itself (point 1), poorly designed (point 2) and OP (point 3). Honestly, seeing THAT in HC for the first time made me simply go alt+f4 and play some TW. Then i saw Burza post about Leaders being WIP and decided to give it a go. Its still beyond troubling that after all the time Gwent team acuumulated with CCG design, this could make it into any build. But we will see.
 
Dont change it, remove the ability alltogether.
There are layers to the game, you Ideas of how do you build your deck.
Is it around a particular combo? do you want to bruteforce your opponent down? Are you gonna focus on shutting down their game plan? Maybe a sudden tempo push? Usurper single handedly removes any layers involving leader ability.



Lets see how many reasons i can come up with:
1st - Ability doesnt add anything to the game. Why would you have a Leader that straight up reduces the amount of interactions, of content in it? Its simply badly designed.
2nd - It invalidates several archtypes. Monster swarm? Nope. NR pulling? Cant do that. I can go on if you wish. And its not even a counterplay. Its simply passive, cant be baited, cant be avoided, your only "play" around it if dumbing down your own deck building process to forego leader ability.
3rd - it gives a pre-game advantage to the NG player. If you play usurper, you KNOW there is going to be no Leader abilities in game. Your opponent doesnt. Even if he doesnt build his deck around his leader (and lets face it, competetive side of any game involves min-max attitute, wich means you basicly should use a synergistic leader), he still has to respect other leaders, depending on the meta. So if lets say, Arachas queen is too popular, people gonna look at tremors to clear the spiders, Epidemics, lacerates, maybe graveyard clearing for the Hag. If you play Usurper - well, you get the idea.

This game has had its fair share or "Wild boar club" cards, those that were just hillariously bad. Alot of ridiculously OP stuff like first iteration of weather. Several outright poorly designed cards like DBP.
But Usurper is pretty much the worst thing ive seen in Gwent. It manages to be both distructive to the game itself (point 1), poorly designed (point 2) and OP (point 3). Honestly, seeing THAT in HC for the first time made me simply go alt+f4 and play some TW. Then i saw Burza post about Leaders being WIP and decided to give it a go. Its still beyond troubling that after all the time Gwent team acuumulated with CCG design, this could make it into any build. But we will see.

Yes but NG is supposed to be the control faction. There has to be a way you can control the enemy leader, even if it's not this way, and even if it's not absolute. Otherwise your opponent can just exploit the synergy and there's nothing at all you can do about it.

Secondly, everyone says Usurper should be changed. I don't see anyone suggesting Morvran, Emhyr OR calveit changed. Why is that? oh so you are only going to change what annoys you? The rest are fine being the weakest leaders in the game then, is that it?

It comes down to this:

> NG is currently the only faction that lacks any sort of synergistic leader with any archetype.
> Why is that? Because it is designed as a control faction, countering what the opponent does and plays (confirmed by Burza in the Ask a Dev Thread)
>As long as this is the design line that the game devs take, NG will always focus on controlling the enemy, than building its own value. And as long as that's a priority, it will keep lacking synergistic leaders. Which really only leaves it with the Usurper as the only viable choice.

Changing the usurper as such, will require a radical change in the direction Homecoming is taking, in that the change will need to give NG at least one, if not more, proactive archetypes, and leaders that can synergize with those at least as well as Bran, Arachas Queen, Foltest and the like can do with the archetypes and cards they support.

I am sorry, but I have to disagree with you my friend! He doesn't get the same value as the opponent. While the opponent builds his deck around his/her Leader synergy, Usurper's deck will expect nothing from his leader and there is a significant difference here. Usurper knows what he is going to get (or not), but the opponents don't.

Except there is really simply no alternative here mate. Say I want to take literally ANY other leader and make a Nilfgaard deck. What are my options:

Emhyr (worst leader in the game in its current iteration)
Morvran (ok, but still sucks compared to literally everyone else, like Eredin, Bran, Harald, Eithne, Foltest, Henselt, etc)
Calveit (the only decent option, still well below the likes of the aforementioned leaders)

Even if you change the Usurper, I believe this game needs some way to control the value leaders are getting. And additionally, as mentioned above, NG will not only require at least one, if not more leaders supporting their archetypes, (which right now, are a joke and playing "pointslam" with NG is infinitely more successful and forgetting synergies), but also an expansion OF said archetypes.

In order to change the Usurper into something "healthy" for the game as most people here put it, the entire faction will require a radical shift in direction. And if the devs are reading the feedback, I really hope they know it before they go through with such a change.
 
Yes but NG is supposed to be the control faction. There has to be a way you can control the enemy leader, even if it's not this way, and even if it's not absolute. Otherwise your opponent can just exploit the synergy and there's nothing at all you can do about it.

Secondly, everyone says Usurper should be changed. I don't see anyone suggesting Morvran, Emhyr OR calveit changed. Why is that? oh so you are only going to change what annoys you? The rest are fine being the weakest leaders in the game then, is that it?
So, you have no arguments against points i provided? Good.
Never said other leaders NG get are OK. Actually, ive been consistently saying that before you nerf or remove something, you have to provide an alternative.
Nobody demands other Leaders removed because none is so hillariously badly designed. There might be some OP ones, my bet is on Harold + Two Blades interaction taking a hit from a nerf hammer one day. Arachas Queen might get a slap too. But again, no other leader manages to simultaniously dumb down the game and limit your deckbuilding freedom at once.

There are plently of non NG control decks. I tried WH with Sihil, tried ST traps, works just fine. Didnt go so well with NR, but i didnt have time to do much deckbuilding. Didnt play SK but faced some guys i struggled to keep any points on the board against. All of that without degrading into artifacts + special spam, or passivly removing a core mechanic from the game.
NG is gonna struggle if it stays the same without Usurper? Probably, didnt test them much. I do suspect morvan can do some work, but real NG players can probably judge it better. Even of Morvan cant do it - this adomination have to go. It can take a rework across the board, doesnt matter.
If factions design is so poor you slap something as hideous as Usurper in into it to make it work instead of re-evaluating your approach, i cant really see a reason to play such CCG, or any game designed with that thought process.
 
So, you have no arguments against points i provided? Good.
Never said other leaders NG get are OK. Actually, ive been consistently saying that before you nerf or remove something, you have to provide an alternative.
Nobody demands other Leaders removed because none is so hillariously badly designed. There might be some OP ones, my bet is on Harold + Two Blades interaction taking a hit from a nerf hammer one day. Arachas Queen might get a slap too. But again, no other leader manages to simultaniously dumb down the game and limit your deckbuilding freedom at once.

There are plently of non NG control decks. I tried WH with Sihil, tried ST traps, works just fine. Didnt go so well with NR, but i didnt have time to do much deckbuilding. Didnt play SK but faced some guys i struggled to keep any points on the board against. All of that without degrading into artifacts + special spam, or passivly removing a core mechanic from the game.
NG is gonna struggle if it stays the same without Usurper? Probably, didnt test them much. I do suspect morvan can do some work, but real NG players can probably judge it better. Even of Morvan cant do it - this adomination have to go. It can take a rework across the board, doesnt matter.
If factions design is so poor you slap something as hideous as Usurper in into it to make it work instead of re-evaluating your approach, i cant really see a reason to play such CCG, or any game designed with that thought process.

I don't think your points are wrong, I just don't think those points make him OP either. For example, as much as the NG player knows he's playing Usurper beforehand, you know you are playing your leader, and all the potential synergies with it. And with that knowledge, you are favored in every matchup BUT the usurper. Take Arachas Queen for example, it can get you, during the course of a match, a lot of Arachas drones, and then boost the value of your Mourntart. The Usurper just cancels all those points you would get. And usually at the cost of fewer mulligans. I would say it can give you an incentive to make hybrid decks. Because in general, the feeling I got from Homecoming, and that was also confirmed by Burza, is that they want to limit the archetypes. That's why they changed the bronze limit from 3 into 2 after all. I am sure I can find the relevant posts. If it's annoying to play against, I can understand that, but some form of control for leaders should exist, otherwise they automatically become the kingpin of every working strategy. Whether it should or should not take the form of an Usurper, or even be limited to one faction, I don't know. I think it shouldn't, personally. But whether the devs responsible for that change are of the same mindset, is an entirely different matter

So essentially, it comes down to me saying something different than what you are saying, which is why I did not dispute your points either (and they aren't wrong). You are saying that it is annoying to play against, and I can understand that, while I am saying that it has to do with the entire direction the game has taken, that became pretty obvious in the PTR. What CDPR wants to achieve is make hybrid decks more viable, limit over-reliance on specific synergies and bronzes, and have some form of leader control in the game. And I personally agree with the latter, even if I am still undecided about the form that sort of control should take, or whether it should be limited to a single faction.
 
An few points here:
And with that knowledge, you are favored in every matchup BUT the usurper.
Not, that knowledge makes you the same level to any other leader BUT the ursuprer, if youn assume, your opponent know his leaer as well...
If it's annoying to play against, I can understand that, but some form of control for leaders should exist, otherwise they automatically become the kingpin of every working strategy.
Thats the point about leader. Gwent lost the factions identity long time ago, now we should abandon leader as well? Archetypes are mostly gone and leaders are the only stable groundwork for a deck at PTR, because they are the only effects you know for sure, will be accessable. Key cards arent drawn regulary.
while I am saying that it has to do with the entire direction the game has taken, that became pretty obvious in the PTR
That no point at all. We dont have to like decisions were made at HC only because the devs did they. The hole point about this thread is, that there are some who dont agree with the devs decisions.
and have some form of leader control in the game
And thats excactly why this thread exists. Giving Ursurper a form to not just destroy a leader, but control him. Make the leader abilies delayed, working only on one round or other ideas. But dont let him be at his present stage.
 
Do NOT change Usurper, i repeat DO NOT change Usurper.

Usurper's like a wake up call to those who build decks that rely so much on leader ability. NG deserve Usurper.
This is a new level of control, the ULTIMATE one.

P/s: tier 1 decks are the one that need to nerf, not a meme deck like Usurper.
 
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