HDR mode black level is way off!

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i spent 3 hours just messing around with the HDR mode but still can't get it right. For the love of God please include a brightness reference image like you have in SDR mode. The SDR mode's gamma reference image is useful that it helps sync your monitor with the reference black. But when you turn on HDR, that reference image is gone. instead you're faced with two in game image that doesn't provide any reference for what reference black is. and to top it off, only the peak luminance setting has an effect on those two images, the rest of paper white and Mid point does nothing to change those two pictures. you have to exit out the setting when you change the mid point and paper white to see the result. but how is that helpful? in the game you can't tell what the darkest black should be. Please give us a brightness/gamma reference image in HDR mode. because the default setting of 1500 nit peak bright with 2.0 mid point is WAYYYY off. it looks like the gamma is 1.6 instead of 2.2. And i know what i am talking about, i calibrate monitors everyday and have a i1Display Pro at home.

i wish game developers know how to implement HDR correctly and know about a thing or two about calibration. this is really taking the fun out of the game. in HDR mode the game right now just looks milky and washed-out. right now i have the mid point at 1.0 instead of the default 2.0, and it seems to look better. but i still don't know what the reference black level should be.
 
I support the topic starter.
I play on ASUS PA32UCX reference HDR monitor.
The HDR configuration in the game is misleading. It's very hard to understand whether the peak brightness and gamma are configured right.

The game menu and load screens look dull with HDR PQ, in Rec.2020 monitor color space.
 
Ideally, you should really have a black level reference image for end user to adjust to, see attachment. And once you have the black level established, you should have a peak luminance level reference. see attached.

since HDR peak luminance can be dynamic. you can either provide a peak reference image for up to 1000 nit (most common), or up to 4000 nit (less common).

but black level is really where it should start. it is the foundation. without it, the content just look like crap even if you have white balance correct.
 

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Guest 4454648

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i wish game developers know how to implement HDR correctly and know about a thing or two about calibration. this is really taking the fun out of the game. in HDR mode the game right now just looks milky and washed-out. right now i have the mid point at 1.0 instead of the default 2.0, and it seems to look better. but i still don't know what the reference black level should be.

I agree.

But a thing you can try is to, if using Windows and Nvidia (possibly AMD as well) is to *Use NVIDIA color settings *Output color format:RGB *Output dynamic range: Full, this solves issues for me most times when blacks are washed out.

I made this change just before I quit playing for to day so its to soon to tell if it works.
 
I agree.

But a thing you can try is to, if using Windows and Nvidia (possibly AMD as well) is to *Use NVIDIA color settings *Output color format:RGB *Output dynamic range: Full, this solves issues for me most times when blacks are washed out.

I made this change just before I quit playing for to day so its to soon to tell if it works.

the Nvidia color space setting should match your output monitor. if your monitor takes full range, it should be set to full. if it's consumer tv, it should be set to limited. once that's set, you can start worry about the rest of the issue with calibration. but if your color space range setting is incorrect to begin with, there's a bigger issue. :p

you can quickly verify whether or not you're in the correct range by downloading AVSHD 709 disc and play it through Window Media Player. if you see patches below #17 flashes, one of the input/out device is operating in the wrong range. if you see #17 disappear and not flashing at all, one of your input/output device is operating in the wrong range. this is the first step that needs to be done before any kind of calibration or content playback. just a quick tip.

the current CP 2077 problem is beyond this basic issue.
either the developer added HDR function without checking/testing that it's in the right luminance/gamma space, or the reference monitor they used to create this game was not calibrated to HDR Rec2020 SMPTE 2084 curve to begin with. Just base on myself working with calibration on a daily basis, the current SMPTE curve is near a straight line for the first 0%~50% IRE, and then drapes and clips the last 80%~100% IRE. so the reference monitor they used was either in the 4.0 gamma space or they just toss the HDR option in there without even checking. and if you're creating content in a 4.0 gamma space, you naturally would bump up all the dark areas in the scene to make everything look good. problem is when the game reaches the rest of the consumer, assuming that most people have their monitors at close to gamma 2.2, all those dark areas that were previously lifted in a 4.0 space will look like a 1.6 gamma washed out.

either way it's a big oversight and afterthought that easily breaks the gameplay i hope they fix it by at least implement a brightness reference image like they do with SDR to help us adjust the black level down to the way it was intended to be viewed.
 
I agree.

But a thing you can try is to, if using Windows and Nvidia (possibly AMD as well) is to *Use NVIDIA color settings *Output color format:RGB *Output dynamic range: Full, this solves issues for me most times when blacks are washed out.

I made this change just before I quit playing for to day so its to soon to tell if it works.

This setting is for video content only, e.g. movies and utube. The bug that caused all Nvidia output to be limited when it configured itself on a 1080p monitor was resolved a while back (although it took its sweet time)

That being said I always make sure I widen it to full range for my monitor
 

Guest 4454648

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the Nvidia color space setting should match your output monitor. if your monitor takes full range, it should be set to full. if it's consumer tv, it should be set to limited. once that's set, you can start worry about the rest of the issue with calibration. but if your color space range setting is incorrect to begin with, there's a bigger issue. :p

you can quickly verify whether or not you're in the correct range by downloading AVSHD 709 disc and play it through Window Media Player. if you see patches below #17 flashes, one of the input/out device is operating in the wrong range. if you see #17 disappear and not flashing at all, one of your input/output device is operating in the wrong range. this is the first step that needs to be done before any kind of calibration or content playback. just a quick tip.

the current CP 2077 problem is beyond this basic issue.
either the developer added HDR function without checking/testing that it's in the right luminance/gamma space, or the reference monitor they used to create this game was not calibrated to HDR Rec2020 SMPTE 2084 curve to begin with. Just base on myself working with calibration on a daily basis, the current SMPTE curve is near a straight line for the first 0%~50% IRE, and then drapes and clips the last 80%~100% IRE. so the reference monitor they used was either in the 4.0 gamma space or they just toss the HDR option in there without even checking. and if you're creating content in a 4.0 gamma space, you naturally would bump up all the dark areas in the scene to make everything look good. problem is when the game reaches the rest of the consumer, assuming that most people have their monitors at close to gamma 2.2, all those dark areas that were previously lifted in a 4.0 space will look like a 1.6 gamma washed out.

either way it's a big oversight and afterthought that easily breaks the gameplay i hope they fix it by at least implement a brightness reference image like they do with SDR to help us adjust the black level down to the way it was intended to be viewed.
???

I didn't ask you a question hahaha. It was a suggestion for you to try. But good luck and all that.
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This setting is for video content only, e.g. movies and utube. The bug that caused all Nvidia output to be limited when it configured itself on a 1080p monitor was resolved a while back (although it took its sweet time)

That being said I always make sure I widen it to full range for my monitor
Your right about the bug. But it applies to gaming as well. Windows sometimes don't send full range. It might depend on what TV u have.
 
@Blackkatt I really appreciate your answers, I was going to ask some questions about the best way to approach calibrating with these settings but if it's from a different gamma curve all together I'll just enjoy these ultrabright highlights I've managed to tune in until something more sensible comes along.

If you don't mind. Could you explain what the Mid Point is supposed to do? The most I've been able to gather is it's kind of like a contrast control, which if it's the case seems strange to me as aren't all HDR monitors calibrated contrast and brightness wise?
 
@Blackkatt I really appreciate your answers, I was going to ask some questions about the best way to approach calibrating with these settings but if it's from a different gamma curve all together I'll just enjoy these ultrabright highlights I've managed to tune in until something more sensible comes along.

If you don't mind. Could you explain what the Mid Point is supposed to do? The most I've been able to gather is it's kind of like a contrast control, which if it's the case seems strange to me as aren't all HDR monitors calibrated contrast and brightness wise?

are you asking Blackkatt or ME? the explanation you referred to above was provided by me, but you referred to Blackkatt.
 
are you asking Blackkatt or ME? the explanation you referred to above was provided by me, but you referred to Blackkatt.

Apologies, I meant you, I got mixed up with the names when scrolling up on my phone, so many names in one post.
 
NP.

the Midpoint refers to Mid Tones. see the attached calibration reference. in a luminance transfer curve, a HDR reference curve should resemble the yellow curve where the first 0%~40% starts off very slow (dark), and then quickly shoots up to give you that blast of contrast and tapers towards the end of 90%~100% IRE without losing any details. the Yellow curve you see is my Samsung Q9FN calibrated to HDR SMPTE 2084. as you can see it's almost right on top of the Grey line reference SMPTE 2084 with the exception that the last 90% clips. but with modern TVs, no TVs can achieve a complete 100% IRE without any clipping.

The RED line is what i THINK the game is currently producing based on my mental intepretation. again, since i have no reference image to work with in the game, i don't exactly know for sure. but based on all the washed out darks and clipping highlights, the Red curve is what i think the game is producing.

when you adjust the mid tone, you're dragging the entire curve by the middle upward or downward. when you raise the midpoint in the game setting, you're moving the curve upward, and lowering it will move the curve downward. so a higher midtone will give you washed out dark scenes and highlights that will be clipped (losing highlight detail). And if you lower the mid tone you crush the darker scenes and gain more details in the highlights but highlights won't be as bright. this is assuming that the midpoint setting in game adjustment affects the entire curve and not just 40~50% section, which would be horribly un-useful.
 

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NP.

the Midpoint refers to Mid Tones. see the attached calibration reference. in a luminance transfer curve, a HDR reference curve should resemble the yellow curve where the first 0%~40% starts off very slow (dark), and then quickly shoots up to give you that blast of contrast and tapers towards the end of 90%~100% IRE without losing any details. the Yellow curve you see is my Samsung Q9FN calibrated to HDR SMPTE 2084. as you can see it's almost right on top of the Grey line reference SMPTE 2084 with the exception that the last 90% clips. but with modern TVs, no TVs can achieve a complete 100% IRE without any clipping.

The RED line is what i THINK the game is currently producing based on my mental intepretation. again, since i have no reference image to work with in the game, i don't exactly know for sure. but based on all the washed out darks and clipping highlights, the Red curve is what i think the game is producing.

when you adjust the mid tone, you're dragging the entire curve by the middle upward or downward. when you raise the midpoint in the game setting, you're moving the curve upward, and lowering it will move the curve downward. so a higher midtone will give you washed out dark scenes and highlights that will be clipped (losing highlight detail). And if you lower the mid tone you crush the darker scenes and gain more details in the highlights but highlights won't be as bright. this is assuming that the midpoint setting in game adjustment affects the entire curve and not just 40~50% section, which would be horribly un-useful.
Thank you, much appreciated
 
Something I've noticed while playing.

Most of the time I'm playing, HDR looks great. I have yet to find a good example that makes me believe the black point is calibrated properly, but the rest of the colours look great, better than when I switch to SDR, and when I switch back I can really appreciate the wider dynamic range. It's immediately apparent.

Sometimes though, the darker colours really crush up into themselves and it's next to impossible to make out any detail. It all washes into a dark grey, and I think something happens in the upper range too.

I'm able to fix this sometimes by just switching to SDR and back, and other times I have to exit the game and reload, but it is fixable.

I'm playing on PC. I'm not how possible these fixes are on consoles.
 
Without a reference black image, we're all just shooting in the dark trying to guess what looks right and what looks better. until devs provide a proper reference black gradient image, your setting could look drastically different than others and vise versa.

i haven't played the game since the launch. likely will just wait for them to fix a whole bunch of stuff first. it's hard for me to enjoy a game when the image doesn't look right. my brain is constantly wanting to do something to fix the problem as oppose to playing the game.
 
That's true, but I'm seeing a lot of people, mostly console users out there complaining of washed out blacks that look messed up which I think is a different additional problem to not having proper a calibration screen or controls.

So if someone stumbles across this thread, it might help them to know there is more than 1 issue, and 1 is potentially resolvable before they patch it.
 
Without a reference black image, we're all just shooting in the dark trying to guess what looks right and what looks better. until devs provide a proper reference black gradient image, your setting could look drastically different than others and vise versa.

i haven't played the game since the launch. likely will just wait for them to fix a whole bunch of stuff first. it's hard for me to enjoy a game when the image doesn't look right. my brain is constantly wanting to do something to fix the problem as oppose to playing the game.

Totally agree. Game looks better on my OLED but on my Acer X35 it looks very off in HDR mode. I've played around with the Nvidia filters but spend most my game time wondering why it looks off.

Because the blacks are elevated i'm able to see the local dimming zones on this game which is a very rare occurrence on any other game. Dark scenes can be very hard to make out.
 
Totally agree. Game looks better on my OLED but on my Acer X35 it looks very off in HDR mode. I've played around with the Nvidia filters but spend most my game time wondering why it looks off.

Because the blacks are elevated i'm able to see the local dimming zones on this game which is a very rare occurrence on any other game. Dark scenes can be very hard to make out.

Interesting, I'm playing on an Asus PG35VQ with the same panel, I don't see any of the haloing and I'm very happy with the settings I've dialed in.

Give my settings a try see how it looks.

1040 nits (or whatever you are comfortable with and know it doesn't crush the whites at)

80 for paper white

I've tuned the mid point by looking at bright areas and turning it down until I see detail where I should see it and things aren't crushed together, my setting is 140.
 
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Interesting, I'm playing on an Asus PG35VQ with the same panel, I don't see any of the haloing and I'm very happy with the settings I've dialed in.

Give my settings a try see how it looks.

1040 nits (or whatever you are comfortable with and know it doesn't crush the whites at)

80 for paper white

I've tuned the mid point by looking at bright areas and turning it down until I see detail where I should see it and things aren't crushed together, my setting is 140.

Great will go it a go now and report back.
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Did you mean 1.40 not 140 for mid point?

No it still looks terrible. Even what should be perfect blank on a transition is grey. (unlike the background of this forum).

Im on the PQ HDR. Which one are you using?

In Nvidia i'm 144 RGB 10Bit colour. HDR on in windows.
 
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O


Great will go it a go now and report back.
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Did you mean 1.40 not 140 for mid point?

No it still looks terrible. Even what should be perfect blank on a transition is grey. (unlike the background of this forum).

Im on the PQ HDR. Which one are you using?

In Nvidia i'm 144 RGB 10Bit colour. HDR on in windows.

Yep PQ, the other one is like an emulation mode for older TV's that don't support PQ.

Same settings, 144, 10-bit HDR on, although my understanding of it is it is no longer using the RGB colour gamut in HDR mode.

I agree the blacks aren't right, I have yet to find anything that convinces me that the blacks are tuned where they should be, but during gameplay when I find a scene that I think should be black, I switch to SDR mode, and it's not black there either.

Adjusting the in-game SDR gamma doesn't help either (lol the image on the left is always visible anyway, no matter how dark I make it)

I know I have the gamma outside of the game set up correctly to counter the oversaturated default state, all other games have great blacks, so I know it's just this game.

If the blacks are as bad in SDR mode as they are in HDR, I'm still happy enough with the rest of the range as I've set it to really enjoy the game as it is for now.

I've not experienced the haloing, and I'd ignore the loading/transition screens and see how you feel in the game.

There are other issues which I've mentioned above which can be resolved if things get really washed out temporarily.
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Just following up, yes with Nvidia, 1.4 mid point

I would add that looking around in game there are definitely darker blacks than the grey transition screens so they might be misleading
 
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Thanks a lot for you input. I am using the Nvidia filters also (Alt+F3) and have upped the exposure slightly and the contrast. This helps a little.
 
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